moonslav59

The worst is #2, but that's what seems to happen, too often. If he's going to need it at some point, IMO, the best time is the day after he finds out from Andrews.

Yes, move on before you even give your opinion on where you think Jeter ranks, fine. Okay, he's not the best (#1) or the worst (#30). Your position is he's between #2 and #29. That's a pretty easy position to defend. Here's trophy for your bold position.

That "time" was right after the period where I claimed Jeter was not horrible. The 10-11 year span I made my claim about began in 2004. You think this supports your argument? You still cling to this? This isn't about bowing to what is right, it's about coming clean when you know you used faulty evidence. It's okay to admit you were wrong. I've been wrong and have admitted it many times. I admit I may be wrong about Jete being the worst. Maybe HRam or Betancourt were, and Jete was just 3rd worst. I do still feel content in my opinion that he is much closer to the worst than even average, let alone GG caliber.

You don't make any point. You just say others are wrong. You don't answer simple questions, which debaters do. (They also have to take a position and defend their side- not just bash the other side.) You use outdated references for you "evidence." You claim Gammons is a saber guy and should be disqualified as evidence, then when outted, use a quote the guy you bashed by using something he said in 2001 to try and support your bashing. You then make claims about people not using logic. Why not answer the questions?

No, but sometimes pitchers make comebacks in unlikely places. He'd certainly be a gamble, but he's one of the cheapest of those who have a chance of doing well. I'd probably rather have Miley, but he costs a little more.

LOL, now I know you're a clown.

No, but they rotate the people, and the people are trained and calibrated. They watch the game looking at just defense. I trust them over me not even watching the game. Of course, there are flaws, but it better than the flaw of me not even seeing who I'm rating or ranking.

That very well could happen, but it happened to Wade Miley, too.

How about combining the two? Jeter's defense sucks on both accounts. Plus, UZR is done bye the "eye test" by people who are trained and calibrated. We can all agree it is still flawed, but they, combined, watch every play of every game, something our eye test can never match.

LOL. Too funny to even respond to this.

Now, I know you're lying.

I brought up Gammons, because you wrongly claimed everyone on the Fielding Bible was a sabermetrics guy, but hey your style of presenting false facts is obvious.

He also had a great ERA in a hit friendly park and league. I understand it's a gamble, but anyone you sign at these dollars is a prayer.

Jeter is "not the best or the worst." I guess it's easy to defend he's somewhere between #2 and #29. I seriously doubt this guy's debate team won any debates.

Man, you are so full of crap, I can smell it from Texas. You obviously know more than trained and calibrated experts, why? Because, apparently, you "played the game." (Note: so did I.)

Oh, now you respect a guy from the Fielding Bible when it suits you. I doubt Gammons ever picked him in his top 10, but I guess he could have been, since a few rare times Jete did get 1-3 points. I never said Gammons felt he was one of the worst. I used the FB to discredit the GG voting and show he never finished above #13 in their voting and more times than not got no votes- meaning he was below #16-23, since they only listed players who got votes. BTW, range does take into account instinct. So, am I to understand you might place him in the middle 33% of a 3 tier ranking? You won't answer my 50-50 question. You make fun of my "on the field more than anyone else,so that's what moves him fro 3-5th worst to worst," but I bet you have no problem with guys making the HOF just out of longevity and compiling big numbers because they played 22 seasons. Jeter sucked on D for over 11 years. He might have been close to the average mark the other seasons. I guess I'm not allowed to use the cumulative defense but others are. I'm fine, if you disagree, but don't say I have no evidence to back up my position. Don't say all I'm using is metrics. I thought Jeter sucked on D before I even heard of UZR, DRS and dWAR. It was based on my observations in games played vs the Sox and a few other games, plus discussions I've had with Sox and Yankee fans over the last 2 decades. I've never heard one person say he deserved the GG. Some Yankee fans felt he was a plus on D, but not great. It's funny how you bash my position, but at least I take a position. What's yours? Is he a top 15 defensive SS over his time period or bottom 15? When you answer, why not give me some reasons why, instead of just claiming 5 GGs over and over and quoting texts that discredit metrics, when we all know they are flawed, yet dozens of knowledgeable baseball people respect them and use them often. I could find some for you, but you could find them too, if you wanted to do it. The guy sucked on D. He made the plays hit within 5 feet of him in any direction. That does not make him plus. Most SS do that and then some.

How are simple plays made "embelished?" I never said it was all about range. Surely, making the plays most SSs make at a better rate has real value. My example I presented took that into account.

We all have our biases. I know I may be in the minority saying Jeter was the worst- maybe hyperbolic- maybe my Yankee hatred skewed my observations, but when so many different metrics and the Fielding Bible vote, which is a hell of a lot more accurate than the GG vote, confirms he's at least bottom 3-5, I don't feel like I'm that far off, if I'm wrong. I could be wrong. He could be the 25th worst out of the top 30 innings players those last 10-11 years, but in my mind, I'm a lot closer than the guys who voted for him to win the GG and the Sox fans who believe them, instead of their own eyes, the eyes of staunch Yankee fans, the eyes of the 10 guys on the F.B. and at least 3 separate metrics. Just about everyone I've ever met has agreed the voting for these awards are a joke. It's one reason it means little to me when a deserving player wins it.

I've addressed the flaws the metrics have dozens of time. Look you believe what you want, but if you even think he was a top 15 SS (out of 30), I'm sorry, I've lost all respect for you. I think he was the worst or possibly up to 3rd worst. I wouldn't argue with anyone who said he was 5th worst. I'm not basing all this on metrics. The metrics backed up my observations and the observations of many other people, including our resident Yankee fan. I'd say I have more evidence backing my position than you, but cling to your GG argument all you want. Can you at least admit he was never in the top tier (50%) on defense? (Not that I need you to do so.) This whole "played the game" crap is worse than any crap you read on metrics. BTW, I didn't know Peter Gammons, among others on the F.B. was a sabermetric guy.

I just made up an example with easy numbers to relate to, but every year some SSs do make 100 or more plays than others- same SS- year after year. Would a 40 more plays example be better? But, he makes 10 more errors? Sure, those high range players exist.

So, the GG vote has no "drawbacks?" 3 separate metrics all show he sucks, and it must be a quirk, because he was actually the best for 5 years. You really want to believe that? WOW! If you aren't Yankee fan, you should be. Now, find an article bashing The Fielding Bible. Those are "experts." I could find plenty on the GG vote, but it won't matter to you.

Here are some numbers for ages 23-26: Betts .305 116 375 in 2762 PAs (.382 OBP/.535 SLG/ .917 OPS) Great defense Yaz .299 65 287 in 2565 PAs (.389/.471/.860) Great defense Boggs .344 16 173 in 1792 PAs (.421/.448/.869) Called up at 24. Lynn .301 71 328 in 2362 PAs (.370/.494/.864) Great defense Rice .311 149 468 in 2768 PAs (.362/.570/.932) Had a better yr at 22 than 23 Nomar .337 113 420 in 2580 PAs (.386/.577/.963) Over rated on D Now, look at their next 10 years: OPS/ PAs .883/ 6609 Boggs .874/ 6459 Yaz .852/ 4881 Lynn .825/ 3443 Nomar .819/ 5602 Rice

I doubt he gets $11M. My guess is he gets $8M with incedntives or $12M/2 with incentives or a buy out. All of these amounts are too much, IMO.

Those "eyeballs" voted a DH the GG at 1B. How can you possibly place value on that process?

Keep bashing UZR/150 all you want, but it was DRS that showed Jeter was as bad as the next worst two combined. No Fielding Bible ranking ever placed him in the top 12. That's not sabermetrics. Jacko all but called him a butcher at the end of his career. Being a Yankee fan like you, I'd think you'd respect jacko.