moonslav59

Verlander has zero playoff wins, despite 30 playoff GS'd and a 3.40 post season ERA and 1.07 WHIP.

True, but MVP was asking so mething else. He might trade Mata & DHern for Kopech, but would he trade Houck and Bello? Houck & Mata? Bello & Mata? While many in the system were unknown or too far away to know much, DD did seem to keep many of the right ones. No doubt, having Kopech, margot, Moncada and others would make us better than the current Sale, Nate, Kimbrell and Pomeranz, but the fact is, DD did not "decimate" the farm. The farm handed to him was over-rated and weak. He did very little to improve it, except that his draftees and IFA signings have outperformed expectations, so far. Houck is about the only one to do anything at the ML level, so far, but a lot, including Casas, Bello, Mata and Walter are knocking on the door. Bloom's additions should not be expected to be making ML appearances for another year or two, but he did bring us Whitlock via Rule 5 and a bunch of near ML ready prospects via trades, some who have not shown much hope, like Wink, Seabold & Downs, but Wong has shown some glimmer of hope, and others are still rising on the farm.

Paxton, too, but we expected 3-4 months for him. We got 6+. Even some of their replacements went on brief IL stints, as did spot starters Houck and Whitlock. It was a total pitcher- IL cluster you-know-what.

I pointed out many were "largely unknown." I think that answers your question. BTW, Houck was "in the organization" before DD left. He was "largely unknown," but he was here..

The weird thing is, if you take everyone Bloom added, even JBJ and Diekman, to me, it looks like an overall plus on additions (Schreiber, Refsnyder, Wacha, Hill, Strahm and mid season additions like McGuire,) but we got worse.

I meant the group of prospects he held onto have turned out better than those he traded combined. Many of the prospects he held onto were largely unknown 3-5 years ago or drafted/IFA signed by DD, himself. The significant players traded: Moncada Kopech Margot Espinal Beeks The ones he kept or acquired and kept: Devers Houck Casas Bello Crawford Mata Rafaela Perales Paulino Walter Wikelman Murphy (Duran, Dhern

I don't think the word "decimate" is appropriate, when he held onto Devers and a few others that are now looking better than Moncada, Kopech, Margot and others, but no doubt, the farm was weak and got weaker.

That's kind of my point. If the mets (or Dodgers) decide they will grossly overpay for the most glitzy FA signing in over a decade, the Yanks will be forced to be outlandish, themselves, or go to plan B.

Even if it's $405M/9? I hope you guys do that.

I'd add Rafaela, Mata and Walter. We are much deeper and stronger than 3 years ago. 5 years ago, too.

I figured that was all under "team leadership."

Sucked when it counted most.

Not getting any meaning ful farm help since Devers is very telling and certainly is part of the reason we are where we are, today. Interestingly, the biggest farm help we got was supplied by the Yankee farm and Bloom's choice to pick Whitlock in the Rule 5 draft. IMO, the next best guy who was called up to the Sox and was a plus is Houck. Yes, Moncada, Margot, Kopech and a couple other traded prospects are better than some of who we have, now, but still: our farm has basically sucked. This year's late additions, namely Casas and Bello, and some promising prospects knocking on the 2023 door hint at the tide changing, but Devers was called up in 2017. That's a pretty long time with no real boosts beyond what DD got through trades plus Houck.

An up and down season with mostly downs.

The waiting is the hardest part. - Tom Petty

So, we ended up 8 games from the Rays and the last WC slot. The record offers no consolation, at all. We sucked. The 10-19 start was too much to overcome, but it wasn't really until game 15 that the pen blew a lead late in the game (10th inning vs TBR.) Not that it makes any difference. The pen sucked. The starters sucked. The O sucked. The D sucked. The baserunning sucked. The leadership sucked. If I forgot anyone, they sucked, too.

Bogey and now JD have started padding their RBI totals, just in time!

This is a good point, but even if we grant that all trades were worth, it, the state of the farm, after Devers (the ones we kept and traded) took a nose dive and is partially responsible for where we are today. The farm problem began before DD in actuality. He maximized some of the weakness by trading over-hyped prospects before they were exposed. It still doesn't change the effect on where we are now.

Scary as hell. Of course, they may have Whitlock and or Houck slotted in one or two of those holes, and they likely are counting on Sale and or Paxton to fill another one or two. #1 #2 Sale and Whitlock #3 Whitlock OR Houck #4 Pivetta #5 Bello (Crawford/Winckowski/Seabold/Walter/Mata/TWard/Murphy)

The following prospects may graduate in 2023: (They have Bello already graduated.) 2. Casas 4. Rafaela (late '23) 6. Mata (mid to late '23) 8. Walter (late '23) 11. Wong 12. Murphy (late '23) 14. EValdez (mid to late '23) 23. Seabold 24. Downs 27. German 29. Kelly

Sound like the same wash, rinse and repeat from you, as well.

True, but we can see how all those homegrown players prior to Devers compare to this post Devers. It’s been a long time form the Devers call up.

It seems many are not patient enough to wait the 4-7 years need to rebuild a farm and start seeing the results of that endeavour.

True, but the salary dump aspect of that deal was the central theme. AGon certainly still had value, despite the hindsight view that showed he really never regained what he showed before the Sox got him. Beckett still had value, despite showing some signs of decline from being a top MLB starter and a playoff hero who was on his way towards cementing his legacy as one of the best "money pitchers" of all time playoff history, until he stumbled. CC was a total salary dump, and we even paid part of his deal to get the Dodger to agree to take him. I did expect better from RDLR & Webster, and I'm sure the Sox did, too. At the time, I rated this trade as one of the top 3-5 trades in Sox history. When we spent the "money saved" on that deal, one could easily compare the choices to what Bloom did with his savings, but Bloom's was on a much smaller scale. We did not really acquire anyone "flashy" or "generational" as jacko called it, but rather guys like Vic, Napoli, Dempster, Stephen Drew and Gomes. That winter worked out much better than Bloom's 2021 and 2022 prior winters, for sure, but many, including myself, and probably most "average fans" were not happy with those choices, until October came around.

This is the reality. The fact that the "average Sox fan" could give a flying EFff about the inner workings of a budget and long term planning does not make it meaning less to whoever the GM and top management is at the time. One could simplify a common rally cry to this: We got ourselves into this situation by neglecting the farm and going large and long on aging stars, so the solution should be to trade away some of the farm and sign more large and long deals with more aging stars. This would make the "average fan" happy, until we reach where we are, today, again and again. Wash, rinse, repeat.