moonslav59

They even told their fans they were not going to spend money to try and win, now. They laid out their strategy for everyone to see. They were even sued by their cable company. If you see tanking as telling the players to try and lose, then no, they did not "tank," in that sense, but they intentionally put a horrible 25 man roster in the dugout with the expressed purpose of hoarding top draft picks for the future. They told fans to look to the future and promised they would spend big in the future. Maybe, we just have different interpretations on differing forms of "tanking." Most feel the upper management of The Astros "tanked" the team for a 3-5 year period.

I guess the term "punting" has some subjective interpretations. I'm sure most MLB fans would have said the 2021 Sox were not "punting," but after that horrific 2020 season, I do not think anyone would say we did enough to make us a solid playoff contender. I thought, due to all the one year signings, the team was looking at 2022, 2023 or beyond, and not 2021. I see that as "punting" or something close to that concept.

Some of the top Free Agents, this winter... Catchers Mitch Garver, Rangers Gary Sanchez, Padres Yasmani Grandal, White Sox Yan Gomes, Cubs ($6 million club option) First basemen/designated hitters Shohei Ohtani, Angels J.D. Martinez, Dodgers Rhys Hoskins, Phillies Josh Bell, Marlins ($16.5 million player option) Donovan Solano, Twins C.J. Cron, Angels Brandon Belt, Blue Jays Joey Votto, Reds ($20 million club option) Carlos Santana, Brewers Garrett Cooper, Padres Second basemen Whit Merrifield, Blue Jays ($18 million mutual option) Adam Frazier, Orioles Kolten Wong, Dodgers Third basemen Matt Chapman, Blue Jays (Devers to 1B/DH and Casas to split DH/1B?) Max Muncy, Dodgers ($10 million club option) Jeimer Candelario, Cubs Justin Turner, Red Sox ($13.4 million player option) Josh Donaldson, Brewers Gio Urshela, Angels Evan Longoria, Diamondbacks Mike Moustakas, Angels Shortstops Tim Anderson, White Sox ($14 million club option) Brandon Crawford, Giants Jon Berti, Marlins Javier Báez, Tigers (player opt-out available) Amed Rosario, Dodgers Kiké Hernández, Dodgers Adalberto Mondesí, Red Sox Outfielders Cody Bellinger, Cubs ($12 million mutual option) Bats LH'd, so trade Dugo? Jorge Soler, Marlins ($9 million player option) Bats RH'd but sucks on D Joc Pederson, Giants (Bats LH'd but is a decent defender in CF) Teoscar Hernández, Mariners (Big RH's bat but sucka on D) Lourdes Gurriel Jr., Diamondbacks Jason Heyward, Dodgers Tommy Pham, Diamondbacks Max Kepler, Twins ($10 million club option) Jung Hoo Lee, KBO Andrew McCutchen, Pirates Adam Duvall, Red Sox Michael Conforto, Giants ($18 million player option) Mark Canha, Brewers ($12.2 million club option) Michal Brantley, Astros Kevin Kiermaier, Blue Jays Eddie Rosario, Braves ($9 million club option) Robbie Grossman, Rangers Randal Grichuk, Angels Michael A. Taylor, Twins Joey Gallo, Twins Jesse Winker, Brewers David Peralta, Dodgers Starting pitchers Blake Snell, Padres Marcus Stroman, Cubs ($21 million player option) Aaron Nola, Phillies Yoshinobu Yamamoto, NPB Clayton Kershaw, Dodgers Eduardo Rodriguez, Tigers (player opt-out available) Sonny Gray, Twins Hyun Jin Ryu, Blue Jays Charlie Morton, Braves ($20 million club option) Jordan Montgomery, Rangers Kyle Hendricks, Cubs ($16 million club option) Alex Cobb, Giants ($10 million club option) Mike Clevinger, White Sox ($12 million mutual option) Michael Wacha, Padres ($16 million mutual option) Wade Miley, Brewers ($10 million mutual option) Seth Lugo, Padres ($7.5 million player option) Martín Pérez, Rangers Lance Lynn, Dodgers ($18 million club option) Lucas Giolito, Guardians Kenta Maeda, Twins Michael Lorenzen, Phillies Tyler Mahle, Twins Relievers Josh Hader, Padres (Trade Jansen?) Liam Hendriks, White Sox ($15 million club option) Craig Kimbrel, Phillies Aroldis Chapman, Rangers José Leclerc, Rangers ($6.3 million club option) Hector Neris, Astros ($8.5 million club option) Joe Jimenez, Braves Jordan Hicks, Blue Jays Matt Moore, Marlins Reynaldo López, Guardians Keynan Middleton, Yankees Nick Martinez, Padres ($16 million club option) David Robertson, Marlins Chad Green, Blue Jays ($9 million club option) Blake Treinen, Dodgers ($7 million club option) Daniel Hudson, Dodgers ($6.5 million club option) Will Smith, Rangers

Bleacher Reports say the Sox have "heavily scouted" Shota Imanaga... Imanaga, 30, profiles more as a middle-of-the-rotation starter than a frontline arm like Yamamoto. He has a 2.96 ERA and 1.07 WHIP in 1,123.2 innings in Japan, and he was the starter for Team Japan in its win over Team USA in the World Baseball Classic title game.

Here is a recent article that hints that the Sox were still trying to sign Nate up to the point he signed with Texas, but were hampered by budget concerns and the tax line. The initial offer was apparently $51M/3. (He signed for $34M/2.) https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2023/10/al-notes-garver-eovaldi-red-sox-kirilloff.html

ND can't take any game lightly, but winning out the rest of the season seems very possible. I'm not sure any other top 25 team has played against 4 other top 25 teams, and the Fighting Irish went 2-2 in those games (4 straight games on their schedule). 14-17 Ohio St. 21-14 @ Duke 20-33 @ Louisville 48-20 USC 6-2, right now with these games to play: Pitt (vs a RB who transferred from ND) @ Clemson (not the great team it was a few years back) Wake Forest @ Stanford They need to be careful not to take any of these teams as push-overs. 10-2 likely gets them into a top bowl game.

I doubt we bench Hartman, unless a game is out of reach. We may still have a chance for a nice bowl invite.

Corey Seager and the Silver Bullet Band!

I like what I’m reading, here. If this guy can fix our pitcher development issue, he’ll be a great hire.

Yes, not perfect.

I guess Nails Nate is not perfect.

Night and day. I also think other teams have done similar things as the Astros, but just not to that extreme and not admitting it. Several teams have done a sort of cycle plan, where they go lean for a few years as they rebuild, then spend more for 2-3 years and repeat.

I think the teams that put known inferior teams on the field, hope they surprise and win. It helps for more fan attendance and viewership on cable. (This might be an example of "punting," but punting implies the hopes that you get the ball back and may do better on your next drive. You gain field position by punting. In baseball, that may mean you are just holding off from going "all in" or seriously "more in." It's the teams that put losing teams on the field and hope they lose is what I'd call "tanking." The Astros hoped they would lose enough to get a top 2-3 pick. The did everything they could to put a bad team on the field. (I doubt they ever instructed their manager or players to lose on purpose, but did as much as possible to make sure the team sucked.

I'm fine with deliberately losing with future winning as the goal. I'm never fine with cheating to win.

The 2020 roster was horrific. We needed a major overhaul for 2021. It's all subjective, and the word "punt" likely means different things to different posters, so we have at least two variables going here, at the same time. Did it look like we were "punting" up to the start of the 2021 season? Hard to answer. It did not look like we were trying to be highly competitve.

Based on one change at one position? I can't answer.

They were actually sued for tanking. (I think the cable company sued them.) Do you think most team would be happy to get Correa and 2 busts in a 3 year stretch of first rounders? How about Correa and Bregman? Okay, it may not alays be effective, but with the Astors, it was.

Did many of us think 2021 was going to be a competitive season? https://www.talksox.com/forum/threads/19983-How-many-wins-will-the-2021-Red-Sox-get Call it a punt. Call it a half-ass attempt. I don't think many felt we'd do anywhere near as well as we did.

If the fighter admitted he threw the fight, I'd say that is evidence. The Astros admitted they tanked.

The Bregman pick WAS a result of tanking. I am firmly a believer the Astros were tanking for more than 3 years. Where are you reading into my statement that? The Aiken pick was from one of your 3 tanhk year drafts. They did not sign him and got Bregmnan the following draft, as a result of tanking. That is clear, to me. They did not start spending way more until 2016. It's my opinion that the tanking was for 5 years. It did not mean every year it resulted in a top pick or a top pick that worked, everytime. It did not, but the overall strategy paid off, and then some.

At the time, I think many felt trading Beni for 5 players/prospects was a sign we were looking more towards the future than 2021. That's not "tanking," but many viewed it as a sign we were punting.

You can tank and the team does better than 55 wins, right? Also, the Bregman pick was a result of not signing Aiken, so it is not bizare to count him as a tank year addition. BTW, the Astros spent less in 2014 and 2015 than they did in 2011, according to cots opening day roster budgets. They tanked for 5 years, but won more games in 2014 and 2015 than the 3 years you want to limit it to.

It was mentioned trading him at the deadline, so I responded to that. Certainly, I am open to and aware of trades made in the winter.

No, but you selectively chose just a 3 year period, when they tanked for longer than that. I also think it was worth tanking for Correa, Appel and Aiken, combined. That's a better haul than most lower draft teams get in a 3 year period of 1st round picks. BTW, the Astros did draft Bregman with the comp pick for not signing Aiken, so they basically got Correa and Bregman from that 3 year period. I also maintain it is more than just the 1st round pick that matters, despite MVP's rebukes.

I'm all for building up for the future, but I agree, enough is enough. It is time to build for now.