Maxbialystock

But you just said he didn't need the knuckle curve against Gardner. Which is it?

Baloney. 7 straight fast balls is inviting disaster, especially against an experienced hitter like Gardner. The only, repeat, only way Kimbrel is effective is when he mixes the knuckle curve with the fast ball, which is exactly what he did to K Gregoria and Stanton last night. Judge got one knuckle curve, a strike, and the rest were fast balls.

Good for you. I feel exactly the same way and said so on moonslav's thread, "A Realistic View of 2018, part II." Despite the weak bottom of the order, we have a good lineup. Infield D is so-so, but outfield is good. Rotation is good. Bullpen not so good. We would be 3 up on the Yankees right now if the bullpen hadn't been Yankee rally enablers Tues and Wed night.

The 2 recent losses to the Yanks didn't depress me. I actually saw confirmation of what you have been saying all along--that the Sox have a very competitive team this year. We could have won both games but for the bullpen collapsing both nights. Game 1 should have been a home team cakewalk with Severino going against Pom the bomb, but Pom came thru--as you suggested he might--with 2 runs in 6 innings. But Hembree blew that one. Last night Porcello stunk, but the lineup came through and got us that 6-5 lead going into the 8th (thanks to the 5 outs by Johnson and Smith). Then Barnes and Kimbrel catered a Yanks rally party that scored 4 runs before the two of them could get a second out. Horrible. But the rest of the team did pretty darn good given we were struggling and the Yankees are red hot. If ERod and the lineup and the bullpen can come thru tonight, we're tied with the juggernaut.

Swihart maybe has the right bat, but not the right defensive skill set. He has caught enough games to convince two different managers and coaching staffs that he doesn't have the skills needed to catch at the MLB level. As for LF and 3B and even 1B, the Sox already have someone better. He is a good all around athlete, but not a good fit for the Sox. Like you, I don't like Holt, but he does have the right defensive skillset because he is so versatile.

I was really mad at Kimbrel last night, but not so much today. What killed him was throwing all fastballs and no knuckle curves to Gardner, who hit the 7th one to deep centerfield for a triple which basically won the game. All seven of those fastballs were called for by the bench. Kimbrel was just doing what he was told to do. As for Price, Sale, and Porcello, you could be right that they aren't big in big games. I think Sale is the exception and that last year his problems in August and September were from too many innings in the first four months. The funny thing is that I don't like Pom at all and never have, but he was darn effective in game one--2 runs in 6 innings, a quality start against a very good lineup. That tells me that Porcello simply choked last night.

I was fine with Barnes going in, also with when Kimbrel replaced him. And I generally think Cora is doing an excellent job with the bullpen. That said, I don't think there is enough discussion of the simple fact that the bench hamstrung Kimbrel last night against the first batter, Gardner. By that I mean the bench called all the pitches and called for 7 straight fastballs and Gardner hit the 7th to deep centerfield for a triple. Kimbrel is far less effective when he doesn't use the knuckle curve at all. He only threw 1 knuckle curve--a strike--against Judge, who poleaxed another fastball. Then Kimbrel mixed in knuckle curves and fastballs and got two quick K's vs. Gregorius and Stanton. Oldtimer has a good explanation for the no knuckle curves: the bench was afraid one would be a wild pitch and bring the runner on third home to tie the game. I appreciate that, but the larger reality was and is that Kimbrel needs that knuckle curve to be effective. It's the combination of those two pitches--blazing fastball and knuckle curve--that makes him successful. My hope is that they learned a lesson last night. When Kimbrel goes in, you need to let Kimbrel be Kimbrel, even with a man on 3b.

You have captured my earlier comment that I'm not so sure Kimbrel is worth huge amounts of money over the long term. Yes, 300 saves in record time. But many on talksox think saves are not a useful stat. The wild card in any discussion about last night is that I'm pretty sure the bench called for all those fastballs, so maybe their lesson learned is that, when he goes in, you have to let Kimbrel be Kimbrel, and that definitely includes the knuckle curve.

Last night our lineup came back against reliever Green to get the 6-5 lead, only to have our bullpen blow another.

True. I can't see inside your mind. Yes, the Yankees have the best lineup in MLB with 209 runs scored, but the Sox lineup is 2d with 200 runs scored, and all we do on talksox is complain about how bad our hitting is. Oh, and the Yankees are hot right now, and I agree that makes a difference. Despite all of the above,however, the simple fact is that in this very big series--for early May--it is the Sox bullpen that has been horrible in two straight games and Kimbrel was horrible right along with the rest of the guys. And he was horrible because he relied on his fast ball against the first two batters, Gardner and Judge, who absolutely whaled on that fastball. He threw no knuckle curves in 7 pitches to Gardner and 1 in several pitches to Judge. I was wrong to call Kimbrel scared because I am pretty sure all his pitches were called from the bench. Oldtimer says the knuckle curve was taken off the table against Gardner because there was a man on 3b and a WP would tie the game. So scared is the right word, but not as applied to Kimbrel. He was following orders. I came into this series worried because I saw and see the Yankees as a freight train about to run us over. I was therefore delighted that the Sox were competitive in game one because Pomeranz rose to the occasion and in game two because the lineup, with Moreland hitting instead of JBJ, rose to the occasion. The team as a whole has played well. But the bullpen has beyond question choked. Tuesday night Hembree walks two after getting 1-2 counts and throws in a balk for good measure. Kelly walked a guy after an 0-2 count. Last night Porcello was awful, but Johnson--surprise, surprise--got three good outs and Smith got us two more, so we went to the bottom of the 8th with a 6-5 lead. The Barnes and Kimbrel give up 4 runs before they get their collective 2d out. The Sox are a good team that was ready to compete in this series despite how hot the Yankees are. But the bullpen--and Porcello--let everyone else down, and kimbrel was right in there with the worst of them. Funny thing is, Kimbrel was crushed twice throwing fastballs and got two quick K's once he brought out the knuckle curve.

I believe you.

Terrible bullpen two nights in a row. Manager was fine.

Meh. I'm not clairvoyant, but I'm pretty sure I'm right that Kimbrel is not, repeat, not effective when he only throws the fastball. It's the combination of the knuckle curve and the fastball that makes him so good. When he finally did use it tonight, he got strikes and got two outs. How can you be so sure throwing seven straight fastballs wasn't what led to the triple, which was in fact the game winning hit? The Yankees lineup is not superhuman. Last night Pom, who has struggled, gave up 2 runs in 6 innings. The Yankees got their third run because Hembree wet his pants out there with 2 walks and a balk. Maybe Hembree believes what you do--that the Yankees are superhuman. Tonight Johnson and Smith got five outs without giving up any runs. Barnes gave up the double because he went to his fastball when his curve was working great. Then the walk, then Kimbrel with his 7 straight fastballs. This was going to be a tough series, no question. But our bullpen just made it so easy for the Yankees in the first two games. You could also be right about the off night, but to me it is no accident that he yields a triple in a key spot when he throws 7 straight fastballs. He eventually did use his knuckle curve and got guys out.

Agree completely. Tonight I was hoping, nothing more. It's possible Barnes would have hung in there, but it sure didn't look like it. I thought Kimbrel was the right call, and he might have been if they had called for at least one knuckle curve against Gardner, but instead he get 7 straight fastballs. The hitting was fine tonight despite missed opportunities. But Porcello our ace stunk it up, only to have the lineup get that 6-5 lead, only to have the bullpen give up 4 in the 8th. Last night was almost a "good loss." Tonight was bad, very bad.

Right. He is in no position to demand a trade.

You betcha. Johnson got three outs, and Smith got 2 without a problem. Kimbrel choked, and he'll choke again. He was afraid to throw his curve against Gardner, and that killed him. He threw 7 straight fastballs because he was afraid to throw the knuckle curve, which for him is an indispensable pitch.

Strongly agree. I honestly don't see Kimbrel as a 2 inning save guy, but it had to be tried at least once, and this was a good time to do it. Now we know he is a one trick pony. He does one inning, preferably with no one on when he goes in.

Well, he had to bring Kimbrel into the 8th at some point this season, and Kimbrel is by far our best reliever. Barnes was not getting the job done. This was a big game for May and the perfect team to see how Kimbrel handles himself. I felt before the season started that Kimbrel doesn't have the mental makeup up to go into an 8th inning with men on base, but what do I know? If nothing else, tonight should show the FO that Kimbrel isn't quite the ace we think he is when he can't pitch in the 8th with men on. I would not shell out big bucks to keep him. I agree too many fastballs because Kimbrel is vulnerable when that's all he throws. He should have thrown at least one early in the count. With Vazquez catching, the decision to throw all fastballs came from the bench.

We needed him most to do what?

Nonsense. Porcello and the bullpen gave up 9 runs.

That has zero relevance to this game. Vazquez did not give up 9 runs. Porcello, Barnes, and Kimbrel did.

Two straight games when the bullpen blew it.

One too many fastballs. Kimbrel absolutely must have his curve working to be effective.

the curve was working, so of course he throws a fastball.

For crying out loud, don't walk this turkey.