See Red

Good points. I thought it was 7 in game 3 with about 3 left... and that was from a 24 point deficit in the second half. KG also hit a big shot in one of the games against Cleveland to tie it with about a minute left. But just as a whole they look like they struggle closing out games. Well, we'll see, I suppose... that's the beauty of sports. As for tonights game... I think the Lakers win. Spurs just looked like a tired, old team in game four. You really shouldn't get outhustled at home in a game that's that important. Also, I hate that Doug Collins is possibly getting the Bulls job... him and Marv Albert call a great game together. I guess that's a bit selfish, though.

Fair enough. It wasn't "why" they're considered career losers as far as I'm considered. It's that it's tough having the type of mentality it takes to win these games on the road when you haven't won before. It's an issue and I think it plays into why they've had so much trouble winning on the road and, in addition to that, why they've had so much trouble closing games out against the Pistons and Cavaliers, with games three and five being great examples... big leads blown and they allowed the Pistons to make a game of it. I think it's a legitimate question. It didn't cost them against the Hawks or Cavs, then again, they're considerably better than both of those teams, that's not so much the case with Detroit or LA.

Celtics really need to pull this one out in Detroit. Playing another game 7 can't be good for a team who's top 3 are as old as the Celtics. I still want Detroit to win for the sake of me being right but Lakers/Celtics looks mighty appealing. By the way, who would you rather have... Doc Rivers or Flip Saunders? The correct answer is neither.

Officiating like this makes me want to reach for the remote control. Who wants to watch guys shoot free throws all freakin' game? Let 'em play...

McDyess is having a hell of a game. 19 points, 11 rebounds... what an effort from him so far.

Celtics have to be ecstatic to only be down four. Pistons might come out on a little run but if the Celtics can get any of the big three going I think they'll win this game. edit: Chauncey looks like shiiiiiit.

Well, Ray Allen had Sam Cassell and Glenn Robinson (when Glenn Robinson was an elite big man in the League) in Milwaukee and played on some talented Sonics teams. The point about Smush Parker is that he was never that good of a player. He was the Lakers PG because they didn't have much of a choice at the time. He was terrible before he went to the Lakers and he was terrible when he left the Lakers so it's safe to say his production was a result of the Lakers not having a choice.

For what it's worth, by big three I meant Allen, Pierce, and KG -- I never intended to compare KG with anyone originally. I just mean late in games he doesn't look all that comfortable. The FG% is regular season and only from this year -- it's not a telling stat but there's really nothing available. He's a good player but he's never had the reputation as someone to be feared when a game's on the line. That's because he's never given anybody a reason to fear him with a game on the line. And please believe how much I hate quoting Bill Simmons, but I've been of the belief that if Bill Simmons writes a serious article on why his team won't win the title when they're the favorites and you're a Boston sports fan, you probably should see it to because he's nauseatingly homerish by trade and even had KG as the MVP. "When he fails (and it's happened a few times this season), his mistakes are unbelievably amateurish—intentional fouls when the team doesn't need them, taking too many steps on his signature fall-away, that kind of stuff. The pressure gets to him. You can see it. In Game 4 of the first-round series with Atlanta, after a near-altercation with Zaza Pachulia, the camera found KG on the bench and he was practically hyperventilating." Look... the argument wasn't "The Celtics won't win it all because Kevin Garnett is a proven loser"... the argument has morphed into Garnett being a career loser, but it was it's hard to expect the Celtics to win when their big three have never won anything, and nobody on the team that logs significant minutes ever has, Posey aside. The Celtics were easily my favorite in the East when the playoffs began... since then I've seen things that I've never seen on a Championship team. I stand by the fact that it takes a winning mentality to win road games in the playoffs and that's why the Celtics couldn't do it. Can they do it now? We'll see. I think they gained a lot more than just a W by winning in Detroit but it's also been pointed out that the Pistons have an MO for losing games they should win come playoff time -- something I'd never taken too strong of notice of. As for the Lakers/T-Wolves comparison... I don't see it. I had to look to see if Smush was even in the League anymore that's how irrelevant he's become (and found he can barely log minutes for the worst team in the NBA since, apparently, teams with an option at the PG prefer to not give him playing time). Vujacic was a second year player logging 4 points a game (he's become a good player since, but still...). Luke Walton was good for 5 a game. Again, Odom's the only real contributor to that team that's still relevant. Say what you want about Wally and company but Wally is a second or third option a good playoff team and Ricky Davis was a starter and a good player in the League before that season. It all comes down to, in my mind, the combination of Wally and Ricky Davis being as valuable as Lamar Odom -- and I don't see that as a slight on Odom because he's a very good player -- and Hassell and Smush being a push (identical career paths). And then the rest of both rosters being terrible with the decent ones being too young to contribute. I'll restate, though, that this conversation has gone in a direction I never really wanted nor intended for it to go originally. KG in his prime was a one-of-a-kind player and still is, really -- I'd put him before Malone and after Duncan if we're ranking PF's.

It's not anti-KG... he's long been a player that I've liked even and there's nothing not to like about him, but he's not been a winner. That's not disputable. Why? Because he's never won. That's the argument. Has he played on the greatest teams? No, but we're not talking rings here, we're talking not getting out of the first round until he was surrounded with Sprewell and Cassell (besides, Lebron has done more with less). Looking lost late in games, which can't be shown statistically outside of a drop in his FG% in the last 5 minutes of games this year -- takes bad fouls like Simmons says and even looks uncomfortable. By the way, this discussion was about all of the big three -- MannyHOF just chose to defend Garnett and not the other two. I'm defending my original point that the fact that the Celtics have struggled on the road in the playoffs up until last night and the fact that it was a team mostly of guys who'd never won aren't completely unrelated. Was Kobe's 05-06 supporting cast better than Garnett's? Not really. Lamar Odom aside, not one of them is even contributing anything to any NBA team (Smush Parker, Chris Mihm, Kwame, Devean George, Brian Cook...). Yet Kobe's made the playoffs and almost upset the Suns while Garnett's finished 15+ games under .500... and you could never make the argument that Garnett didn't care or didn't try hard for obvious reasons but you could use Kobe Bryant's refusal to shoot the ball in the second half of game 7 against the Suns to attempt to shut his critics up to argue that he was indifferent.

It's not that he hadn't won... it's that he hadn't gotten out of the first round with that one season aside. By the way, it wasn't just an "okay" supporting cast... Cassell and Sprewell were a great supporting cast. Watch a Lakers game. Kobe takes over -- he took over game one and willed his team to victory. Garnett's great and has had some great games in this postseason but I've never in his career seen him just take over in the postseason. And there's a difference between playing on the road in the regular season and doing it in the playoffs -- I don't know how you can believe otherwise at this point.

So is Rasheed's shooting touch, though. I'm not convinced the Celtics can win on the road. If they can't do it in Cleveland or Atlanta how do they do it in Detroit? They just don't have what it takes... hell, even Bill Simmons admits that KG isn't wired like a winner. edit: By the way, nobody is beating the Lakers.

And there goes Home Court Advantage. Good game, great effort from the Pistons. Unlike in game one, Detroit got to the hoop and they really upped the intensity on defense. 1-1 going on the road... unfamiliar territory for the Celtics.

I think it's a pretty cool thing to do, personally. The only people capable of "ruining" the moment are the fans by booing A-Rod. It can't be so difficult to just not boo the guy once so he can congratulate his friend. :dunno:

Oh don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to say anything about the officiating. I only watched the second half and I thought the game was officiated very well. Pistons didn't get to the line because they made no attempt to get to the basket. They got into their offense too late and ended up settling for McDyess and Wallace jumpers far too often. Celtics on the other hand got to the basket -- as a result, they got to the line. The difference in free throws attempted is a result of how aggressive either team was. On another note, Billups looked rusty. It's silly to expect Rondo to outplay him in this series.

Pistons need to get to the hoop. They settled for way too many jump shots... when they got to the hoop they did fine but overall, they didn't get to the hoop and, as a result, they didn't get to the line.

I know this doesn't really fit in with the theme of the thread but... The Bulls, with a 1.7% chance of winning the draft lottery, won the draft lottery. They should take Beasley. The Heat will pick second.

Well, the layoff was exactly what the Pistons needed. Chauncey Billups should be completely healthy. I'm not saying the Pistons will be winning games by double digits, but I don't think a few bounces going one way or the other is going to be the difference between who plays in the Finals and who's not, if you know what I'm saying.

Good win for the Celtics. Came out early and set the tone. Pierce was incredible. The Cavaliers could've taken two or three of the games in Boston, though, but just played sloppy basketball -- and obviously, the C's on the road should be a concern. I think a refocused Detroit team takes it in 6 and without too much of a struggle.

Good day for us. Rays lose, Yankees lose, and we win both games.

I don't know... I think it is, in a way, fixing games. The NBA tends to manipulate games to go the way they want/need them to go -- it happens too many times to be coincidental. Last night may have just been bad officiating -- it's not just "home court officiating", it's having THE superstar on your team in Lebron James. I'll always point to the Mavericks/Heat Finals whenever this discussion comes up. Mavericks are up big in the 4th quarter with a 2-0 lead in the series... the series is about 7 minutes away from being all but over, and suddenly the Heat get every call down the stretch and come back and win the game. I had no preference in who won or lost that series and I thought it was the worst officiating I've ever seen in any sport. You say the NBA wants to see Lebron in a game 7, but I'd also say that if Boston losing in the first round wouldn't have ruined the entire postseason for the NBA (since Boston vs. the Western Conference winner might've been the only compelling Finals scenario), Boston would've played a game five at home against Atlanta without KG and might not even be here right now. :dunno:

Both teams played like s*** towards the end... Celtics had the lead to where they could kind of afford to. Missed free throws, that missed opportunities from Wally, and some terrible defense in the fourth quarter from Cleveland. As good as that defense has looked at times, they looked bad in the second half. Good win for the Celtics. I still think we'll see a game 7.

Lebron's already got 11 in the first and he's made Posey look bad a few times... might be a long night for the C's.