9/05 SOX @ Rays 4:10PM ET

[Maxbialystock]

He did have an RBI 2B, earlier, but that did seem like the defining moment of the loss.

 

I hardly ever blame one guy for any loss, and blaming Story would not be one of those times, for me.

 

Good pitching beats good hitting, simple as that.

 

And in this game the Rays bullpen just overwhelmed the Sox hitters.

 

In the 6th, Casas and Kike K'd and Refsnyer lined out.

In the 7th, Plawecki walked, Pham K'd, Dugo grounded out, Bogey walked, Devers walked, and Story K'd.

So that so-called huge rally was based on 1 ground ball single and 3 walks.

In the 8th, all 3 Sox batters K'd.

And in the 9th, McGuire singled to lead off, but then Pham K'd, Dugo grounded out, and Bogey also K'd.

 

Indeed, the Sox were lucky the bullpen--actually Familia--only gave up 2 runs in 2 innings.

 

Also this. Let's give Bogey a single in the 9th and Wong enough speed to score and tie the game. The Rays still have the bottom of the 9th to score the winning run.

Edited September 5, 2022 by Maxbialystock

[SPLENDIDSPLINTER]

Good pitching beats good hitting, simple as that.

 

And in this game the Rays bullpen just overwhelmed the Sox hitters.

 

In the 6th, Casas and Kike K's and Refsnyer grounded out.

In the 7th, Plawecki walked, Pham K'd, Dugo grounded out, Bogey walked, Devers walked, and Story K'd. So that so-called huge rally was based on 1 ground ball single and 3 walks.

In the 8th, all 8 Sox batters K'd.

And in the 9th, McGuire singled to lead off, but then Pham K'd, Dugo grounded out, and Bogey also K'd.

 

Indeed, the Sox were lucky the bullpen--actually Familia--only gave up 2 runs in 2 innings.

 

It's A Familia Affair.

[Maxbialystock]

That's a given. But Cora was more at fault than Plawecki.

 

Finally, someone I can agree with. Cora threw all the pitches, took all the at bats, ran all the bases, and made all the plays in the field.

 

These insightful game threads have made it clear that Cora has been at the root of all the losses and helped to win none of the games.

 

So to get ready for next year, all Chaim Bloom has to do is fire Cora and get a winning manager and thereby save a ton of money because the pitching, hitting, baserunning, fielding, and will to win all suffered because Cora lost the clubhouse sometime back in April and May.

[SPLENDIDSPLINTER]

Finally, someone I can agree with. Cora threw all the pitches, took all the at bats, ran all the bases, and made all the plays in the field.

 

These insightful game threads have made it clear that Cora has been at the root of all the losses and helped to win none of the games.

 

So to get ready for next year, all Chaim Bloom has to do is fire Cora and get a winning manager and thereby save a ton of money because the pitching, hitting, baserunning, fielding, and will to win all suffered because Cora lost the clubhouse sometime back in April and May.

 

C'mon, MAX, you must have some personal connection with Cora. I don't believe you are Cora, but who knows? The only other explanation I can come up with is that you like belonging in a cult.

Edited September 5, 2022 by SPLENDIDSPLINTER

[FredLynn]

I am feelin g better and better about offering Wacha a QO.

 

Haven’t looked his career stats (I will) but if this season was an aberrancy I would keep that in mind when figuring out how much to offer him.

[cukes]

C'mon, MAX, you must have some personal connection with Cora. I don't believe you are Cora, but who knows? The only other explanation I can come up with is that you like belonging in a cult.

 

Lead off man on in the ninth nobody out you have to attempt to make a run. you are on the road and if you can get him across a tie gives you a shot but no attempt, when Cash was down a run he took a shot with the steal of second and it worked, eventually won the game, sitting on your hands does nothing, even if an attempt doesn't work at least you tried, Cora is a horrible game manager period, if lead off man got to second things can happen to get him to third with one out or at worst two out but your on third with a better shot, make it happen don't stay flat that's baseball

[SPLENDIDSPLINTER]

Lead off man on in the ninth nobody out you have to attempt to make a run. you are on the road and if you can get him across a tie gives you a shot but no attempt, when Cash was down a run he took a shot with the steal of second and it worked, eventually won the game, sitting on your hands does nothing, even if an attempt doesn't work at least you tried, Cora is a horrible game manager period, if lead off man got to second things can happen to get him to third with one out or at worst two out but your on third with a better shot, make it happen don't stay flat that's baseball

 

Cash is, imho, the best manager in baseball. Cora, not so much. Btw, Cash giving his runner the steal sign was aided by the fact that Cora still had rag arm Plaw behind the plate.

[cukes]

There is nothing to defend.

 

Cora is a horrible in game manager, period

[cukes]

Cash is, imho, the best manager in baseball. Cora, not so much. Btw, Cash giving his runner the steal sign was aided by the fact that Cora still had rag arm Plaw behind the plate.

 

two time manager of the year for a reason, it showed today he did just enough to win and it worked, you have to try

[moonslav59]

Cora is a horrible in game manager, period

 

Wrong! Exclamation point!

[FredLynn]

Wrong! Exclamation point!

 

Cora got stuck with a team with insufficient talent and some of the talent they did have underperformed. Add the injuries to the formula and you get a last place team that won’t be climbing out.

[cukes]

Cora got stuck with a team with insufficient talent and some of the talent they did have underperformed. Add the injuries to the formula and you get a last place team that won’t be climbing out.

 

what did he do today to try to win a game, there is a time where basic baseball is necessary, ask Kevin Cash

[FredLynn]

what did he do today to try to win a game, there is a time where basic baseball is necessary, ask Kevin Cash

 

I am not going to defend Cora here. I think he isn’t top tier. But in answer to your question he PH McGuire (who led off the ninth with a single) for Plawecki then sent in Wong to PR for McGuire. I have no problem with how he managed today’s game. I think he was handed a bunch of s*** players this year and the talent he did have underperformed or got injured. My problem with him is that he allowed his team to play BRAIN DEAD for far too long. He should have sat the players on the bench when they didn’t focus.

Besides-whatever makes you think it’s a good idea to win games at this point?

[moonslav59]

Cora got stuck with a team with insufficient talent and some of the talent they did have underperformed. Add the injuries to the formula and you get a last place team that won’t be climbing out.

 

He's made some mistakes, like every manager does, but he is so far from "horrible," it makes me laugh when someone says it.

 

[moonslav59]

I am not going to defend Cora here. I think he isn’t top tier. But in answer to your question he PH McGuire (who led off the ninth with a single) for Plawecki then sent in Wong to PR for McGuire. I have no problem with how he managed today’s game. I think he was handed a bunch of s*** players this year and the talent he did have underperformed or got injured. My problem with him is that he allowed his team to play BRAIN DEAD for far too long. He should have sat the players on the bench when they didn’t focus.

Besides-whatever makes you think it’s a good idea to win games at this point?

 

I was going to say the same. I thought PH'ing Arroyo was best, but Cora made the right choice.

 

Many probably felt brining in Kelly was a big mistake. Oh, wait...

 

[Maxbialystock]

C'mon, MAX, you must have some personal connection with Cora. I don't believe you are Cora, but who knows? The only other explanation I can come up with is that you like belonging in a cult.

 

As I've said repeatedly, no Cora critic has yet successfully responded to the following:

 

In 2018 he managed an excellent Sox team--but not much better in personnel than the 2016 and 2017 teams--to 108 wins and 11-3 in the postseason. That was the best Sox season ever, and the players deserve tons of credit. But there were times when Cora's managing helped.

 

In 2019 the pitching collapsed (ERA of 4.70 was 19th in MLB), but they still won 84 games (and lost 78).

 

In 2020 Cora was justifiably banished from MLB, and the Sox were terrible, 24-36.

 

In 2021 Cora returned without Mookie, Price, Sale, Kimbrel, Beni, and Moreland and the Sox won 92 games and got to the ALCS in the postseason despite having to face the Yankees ace Cole in the wild card, followed 2 days later by the 100 win Rays (best record in the AL in 2021) in the ALDS, which they won 3 games to 1. In that postseason the Sox played 11 games without a closer and in fact never got a save. But the only blown save was in the 6th inning of game 2 vs. the Astros when Sale started, went just 2.2 innings, and Houck got the blown save in the 6th inning. That, sir, took some managing. And that was last freaking year!!

 

This year, 2022, the Sox have the 2d worst ERA in the AL but are now 67-69, which is a ton better than Sox teams in the John Henry with lousy pitching. But going back to April the ongoing theme on Talksox--as it was years ago about Francona on a different blog site (BDM)--has been all the irretrievable, bonehead mistakes Cora has made. Plus the new theme that he mysteriously somehow "lost the clubhouse" sometime back in the spring.

 

If you can, take a shot at the above. Explain it all away.

 

To remind. I don't in anyway object to anyone saying, "well I would have done it this way." Or, "I think Cora should have done this." What I don't get is the insistence that he's stupid and doesn't know what he's doing. There is literally no meaningful evidence to support that.

[notin]

As I've said repeatedly, no Cora critic has yet successfully responded to the following:

 

In 2018 he managed an excellent Sox team--but not much better in personnel than the 2016 and 2017 teams--to 108 wins and 11-3 in the postseason. That was the best Sox season ever, and the players deserve tons of credit. But there were times when Cora's managing helped.

 

In 2019 the pitching collapsed (ERA of 4.70 was 19th in MLB), but they still won 84 games (and lost 78).

 

In 2020 Cora was justifiably banished from MLB, and the Sox were terrible, 24-36.

 

In 2021 Cora returned without Mookie, Price, Sale, Kimbrel, Beni, and Moreland and the Sox won 92 games and got to the ALCS in the postseason despite having to face the Yankees ace Cole in the wild card, followed 2 days later by the 100 win Rays (best record in the AL in 2021) in the ALDS, which they won 3 games to 1. In that postseason the Sox played 11 games without a closer and in fact never got a save. But the only blown save was in the 6th inning of game 2 vs. the Astros when Sale started, went just 2.2 innings, and Houck got the blown save in the 6th inning. That, sir, took some managing. And that was last freaking year!!

 

This year, 2022, the Sox have the 2d worst ERA in the AL but are now 67-69, which is a ton better than Sox teams in the John Henry with lousy pitching. But going back to April the ongoing theme on Talksox--as it was years ago about Francona on a different blog site (BDM)--has been all the irretrievable, bonehead mistakes Cora has made. Plus the new theme that he mysteriously somehow "lost the clubhouse" sometime back in the spring.

 

If you can, take a shot at the above. Explain it all away.

 

To remind. I don't in anyway object to anyone saying, "well I would have done it this way." Or, "I think Cora should have done this." What I don't get is the insistence that he's stupid and doesn't know what he's doing. There is literally no meaningful evidence to support that.

 

 

I’ve called out some stupid Cora strategies (Houck piggybacking, early Rich Hill usage), but he’s still a good manager…

[moonslav59]

Max, our culture is all about blame, and since the old adage is the buck stops at the top, many feel it has to be Bloom & Cora's fault. It's oversimplification and more of the blame everyone but the actual people responsible for losing- like the players.

 

The GM chose the wrong players.

The manager played the wrong players.

The manager managed the players wrongly.

 

Sure, they get pissed at players, here and there (see the game threads), but for the most part it's more Cora and Bloom's fault than the fact that Bogey and JD can't get key hits, that 80% of the rotation got hurt, often at the same time, the 800+ OPS 1bman was a fluke, one of the second half & playoff heroes (Kike) slumped, then got hurt, then when a bunch get healthy, Houck and others get hurt. That all has to be on Cora and Bloom.

 

Someone has to be blamed. It can't just be poor or unfortunate circumstances. Someone has to pay for the frustration we all feel. You "can't fire the team," so...

[illinoisredsox]

Is he hurt?

 

I was going to say the same. I thought PH'ing Arroyo was best, but Cora made the right choice.

 

Many probably felt brining in Kelly was a big mistake. Oh, wait...

 

 

Arroyo fouled a pitch off his foot yesterday; it looked pretty nasty. He finished the AB but he was very gimpy doing so. He certainly got a nasty bone bruise if not something worse. I doubt he was really available today.

[illinoisredsox]

There's a Ty Cobb moment, except Ty wouldn't be concerned.

 

A Pedroia-Machado moment

 

Not even close; spikes were not up nor was there any movement of them except straight ahead. Any fielder who wants to block the base that way risks what happened there.

 

He must have thought Dugo was going to slide head first.

 

Don’t they all these days?

 

The way fielders block bases these days , I’d like to see more guys go in feet first. It would cut a lot of the blocking out.

[FredLynn]

Arroyo fouled a pitch off his foot yesterday; it looked pretty nasty. He finished the AB but he was very gimpy doing so. He certainly got a nasty bone bruise if not something worse. I doubt he was really available today.

 

It’s Francona’s fault

 

Somehow

[moonslav59]

It’s Francona’s fault

 

Somehow

 

But it was never, ever DD's fault.

[Maxbialystock]

Max, our culture is all about blame, and since the old adage is the buck stops at the top, many feel it has to be Bloom & Cora's fault. It's oversimplification and more of the blame everyone but the actual people responsible for losing- like the players.

 

The GM chose the wrong players.

The manager played the wrong players.

The manager managed the players wrongly.

 

Sure, they get pissed at players, here and there (see the game threads), but for the most part it's more Cora and Bloom's fault than the fact that Bogey and JD can't get key hits, that 80% of the rotation got hurt, often at the same time, the 800+ OPS 1bman was a fluke, one of the second half & playoff heroes (Kike) slumped, then got hurt, then when a bunch get healthy, Houck and others get hurt. That all has to be on Cora and Bloom.

 

Someone has to be blamed. It can't just be poor or unfortunate circumstances. Someone has to pay for the frustration we all feel. You "can't fire the team," so...

 

Yes, that's what's going on and therefore it is normal to gripe. Indeed, I'm on another blog site for college basketball and during the games the criticism is frequent and scathing--and far worse than on talksox.

[Maxbialystock]

Not even close; spikes were not up nor was there any movement of them except straight ahead. Any fielder who wants to block the base that way risks what happened there.

 

 

 

Don’t they all these days?

 

The way fielders block bases these days , I’d like to see more guys go in feet first. It would cut a lot of the blocking out.

 

Feet first is a legitimate slide, always has been. But I don't like the Ty Cobb way which was usually spikes up with intent to maim. That's how Machado ended Pedey's career although Pedey insisted it was a clean play--and apparently the umps agreed.

 

On that slide last night, I agree Verdugo was just trying to get to 2d base as quickly as possible with a feet first slide.

 

I also agree infielders should not get away with blocking.