6/17 Cards @ SOX 7:10PM ET

[Old Red]

missed him lol

 

Sale

Eovaldi

Wacha

Pivetta

Hill

 

I’ll go with this.

[Maxbialystock]

Houck most likely grew up a Cardinal fan being 20 minutes from Busch Stadium. It had to be a sweet save for him.

 

Sweet?????????

 

He came in with 2 on and 2 out and gave up back to back doubles to get the score from 6-2 to 6-5 with men now on 2d and 3d before he finally got his first out, a K. It was an absolutely putrid save and evidence of why the "save" is a stupid stat.

[iortiz]

I’ll go with this.

 

It is a solid rotation.

[Jasonbay44]

Wrong again as usual. Whitlock is, and has been from day one my #1 option as closer. You wanted Robles, and Barnes.

Id rather Barnes be released than ever attempt to close games again

[iortiz]

Id rather Barnes be released than ever attempt to close games again

 

I will be shocked if he close again in Boston Red Sox uniform

Edited June 18, 2022 by iortiz

[Old Red]

Sweet?????????

 

He came in with 2 on and 2 out and gave up back to back doubles to get the score from 6-2 to 6-5 with men now on 2d and 3d before he finally got his first out, a K. It was an absolutely putrid save and evidence of why the "save" is a stupid stat.

 

Your just mad, because they didn’t bring your choice Hector in, so you must be saying that Cora doesn’t know what he’s doing by bringing Houck in. Ragging on Cora like that your just a bad fan.

[Old Red]

Id rather Barnes be released than ever attempt to close games again

 

They owe him to much money

[iortiz]

They owe him to much money

 

So? They did to so many player too (and way more btw). Remember Panda, Castillo, Gonzalez, Crawford, etc.?

[Old Red]

Well, well. Houck gets his 3d magnificent save in less than a week. Old Red sure can pick 'em, and I bow to his superior insight into how to run a bullpen.

 

Seems like Cora picked him too, so I guess by your analogy Cora must have the same superior insight.The more you dig you just bury yourself more, and more.

Edited June 18, 2022 by Old Red

[Maxbialystock]

Wrong again as usual. Whitlock is, and has been from day one my #1 option as closer. You wanted Robles, and Barnes.

 

I didn't want anybody specific. I only cited Barnes and Robles as guys who were already on the team who had closed (successfully) before. But, after they tried to close, it was pretty obvious neither could do the job this season. I agree Whitlock was your first choice to close, but also believe you have been fine with House once he got those two saves.

 

Here's what I think a good closer should be/have: someone with two really good pitches, preferably a fastball and a breaking ball, excellent control, and no fear. That was Uehara--but also Kimbrel, and, last year, briefly, Barnes. I think Papelbon too, except that I think he developed a third pitch.

 

I think Whitlock and Houck have shown they can be good relievers and even starters, but I also think neither of them fits that description of what good closer should be/have. Of course, I could be wrong about what a good closer should have.

[Maxbialystock]

Seems like Cora picked him too, so I guess by your analogy Cora must have the same superior insight.The more you dig you just bury yourself more, and more.

 

Cora had tried almost everyone else as a closer, so why not Houck? And if Houck repeats what he did tonight, maybe Cora will try Whitlock as closer.

 

Where we differ is that I think Cora did the best he could with what he had for his pitching staff and you don't. I do agree that Whitlock is pretty close to the center of that disagreement because I think Cora was right to start out using him as a long reliever and then to move him into starting. And I say that because Whitlock seems to me to have the repertoire to get through a lineup 2 or 3 times, which relievers (and especially closers) never have to do. I also say there is little or no evidence that Whitlock would be a good closer, whereas you seem to think that's almost a certainty.

[TylerD]

I didn't want anybody specific. I only cited Barnes and Robles as guys who were already on the team who had closed (successfully) before. But, after they tried to close, it was pretty obvious neither could do the job this season. I agree Whitlock was your first choice to close, but also believe you have been fine with House once he got those two saves.

 

Here's what I think a good closer should be/have: someone with two really good pitches, preferably a fastball and a breaking ball, excellent control, and no fear. That was Uehara--but also Kimbrel, and, last year, briefly, Barnes. I think Papelbon too, except that I think he developed a third pitch.

 

I think Whitlock and Houck have shown they can be good relievers and even starters, but I also think neither of them fits that description of what good closer should be/have. Of course, I could be wrong about what a good closer should have.

You are somewhat correct about the pitches but you’re missing the biggest aspect in my opinion. A closer needs to live and breathe pressure. Houck fits that PERFECTLY. He never ever looks stressed, or angry like so many other pitchers. Very few can come into the 9th and get a save. Houck treats the 9th like any other inning and it shows. The guy barely breaks a sweat. It was 6-5 and he had one of the best hitters in the league come up, and he struck him out

 

Houck is our closer. Did he make things tense? Sure. But guess what. Kimbrel did at the best of times for us as well, same with many other closers. The best closers can have off nights. I am perfectly fine with Houck being out closer. The guy fits the position perfectly.

[iortiz]

You are somewhat correct about the pitches but you’re missing the biggest aspect in my opinion. A closer needs to live and breathe pressure. Houck fits that PERFECTLY. He never ever looks stressed, or angry like so many other pitchers. Very few can come into the 9th and get a save. Houck treats the 9th like any other inning and it shows. The guy barely breaks a sweat. It was 6-5 and he had one of the best hitters in the league come up, and he struck him out

 

Houck is our closer. Did he make things tense? Sure. But guess what. Kimbrel did at the best of times for us as well, same with many other closers. The best closers can have off nights. I am perfectly fine with Houck being out closer. The guy fits the position perfectly.

 

This!

 

This is why closers must be different animals. They must have poker-ADN in their veins. The 9th, it's beyond skills, I can tell ya that.

Edited June 18, 2022 by iortiz

[Old Red]

Cora had tried almost everyone else as a closer, so why not Houck? And if Houck repeats what he did tonight, maybe Cora will try Whitlock as closer.

 

Where we differ is that I think Cora did the best he could with what he had for his pitching staff and you don't. I do agree that Whitlock is pretty close to the center of that disagreement because I think Cora was right to start out using him as a long reliever and then to move him into starting. And I say that because Whitlock seems to me to have the repertoire to get through a lineup 2 or 3 times, which relievers (and especially closers) never have to do. I also say there is little or no evidence that Whitlock would be a good closer, whereas you seem to think that's almost a certainty.

 

If Sale doesn’t get hurt to start the season I don’t think you see Houck, or Whitlock in the rotation unless someone got hurt. Cora picked Houck over Whitlock to start the season in the rotation, but when Houck couldn’t go to Toronto it got switched. Who knows what would have happened if all of that hadn’t taken place, and maybe Whitlock would have been tried as the closer by now.

[TylerD]

This!

 

This is why closers must be different animals. They must have poker-ADN in their veins. The 9th, it's beyond skills, I can tell ya that.

 

Definitely!!!

[moonslav59]

Yes I did, and many of us wanted to give Houck a chance.

 

That would be me, and I still think he might be our best choice. (I think Whitlock would have been, too, but maybe in a more unconventional sense, where he could go more than 1 IP more often than is the norm for traditional closers.)

[Maxbialystock]

Kimbrel by October, 2018 was literally gassed out.

 

I think he was telegraphing his pitches and finally got two clean saves when he stopped telegraphing. He pitched 62.1 innings in the 2018 regular season. Among the top closers, that wasn't a lot of innings.

 

Also, I'm pretty sure he didn't pitch for the last 9 days of the regular season. He got a save on Sep 21, and his next game I think was Oct 5 against the Yankees. Maybe he was rusty, but gassed?

[moonslav59]

If Sale doesn’t get hurt to start the season I don’t think you see Houck, or Whitlock in the rotation unless someone got hurt. Cora picked Houck over Whitlock to start the season in the rotation, but when Houck couldn’t go to Toronto it got switched. Who knows what would have happened if all of that hadn’t taken place, and maybe Whitlock would have been tried as the closer by now.

 

Agreed.

 

I know Bloom has taken a lot of grief for not having a better contingency plan for a 6th starter, and the criticism has merit, but there was only so much to spend and a bunch of holes to fill.

 

We might have a lot more wins, if Sale has been healthy and pitching well.

[Maxbialystock]

Your just mad, because they didn’t bring your choice Hector in, so you must be saying that Cora doesn’t know what he’s doing by bringing Houck in. Ragging on Cora like that your just a bad fan.

 

I'm mad at Houck, but not Cora. He gave Houck the closer job because nobody else had shown he could do the job--and lots of guys tried. Whitlock, Houck, Diekman, Davis, Brasier, Schreiber, Strahm, Robles, and Barnes have all had save opportunities this season (although I suspect not all were in the 9th inning).

 

And Houck got saves his first two times out, so of course Cora would use him again.

 

And being mad at Houck might be unfair because he is not an experienced closer. But he was the right choice because Davis sure wasn't getting the job done and Houck just got two saves.

[iortiz]

I think he was telegraphing his pitches and finally got two clean saves when he stopped telegraphing. He pitched 62.1 innings in the 2018 regular season. Among the top closers, that wasn't a lot of innings.

 

Also, I'm pretty sure he didn't pitch for the last 9 days of the regular season. He got a save on Sep 21, and his next game I think was Oct 5 against the Yankees. Maybe he was rusty, but gassed?

 

he was definitely done. Sale closed the last inning of the season —and with a plenty lead if I recall well— It spoke volumes of Cora's confidence on him.

[Maxbialystock]

You are somewhat correct about the pitches but you’re missing the biggest aspect in my opinion. A closer needs to live and breathe pressure. Houck fits that PERFECTLY. He never ever looks stressed, or angry like so many other pitchers. Very few can come into the 9th and get a save. Houck treats the 9th like any other inning and it shows. The guy barely breaks a sweat. It was 6-5 and he had one of the best hitters in the league come up, and he struck him out

 

Houck is our closer. Did he make things tense? Sure. But guess what. Kimbrel did at the best of times for us as well, same with many other closers. The best closers can have off nights. I am perfectly fine with Houck being out closer. The guy fits the position perfectly.

 

Completely agree the closer has to be fearless--I said that up above--and that might be Houck. However, coolness doesn't work without great command and two really effective pitches. Houck now has 3 saves and in all three of them at least one batter hit the ball hard. Tonight he needed just one freaking out and instead gave up back to back hard hit doubles that cut the Sox lead from 6-2 to 6-5.

 

I remain unconvinced that Houck is THE MAN, but for now think Cora should stick with him. Eight other Sox relievers have had save opportunities this season and none has shown he has the right stuff.

[Maxbialystock]

he was definitely done. Sale closed the last inning of the season —and with a plenty lead if I recall well— It spoke volumes of Cora's confidence on him.

 

I just checked. Kimbrel pitched the 9th inning, of the last game of the 2018, a 10-2 win over the Yankees in which Porcello pitched 2 innings, Kelly 1, Poyner 1, ERod 1, Barnes 1, Brasier 1, Pomeranz 1, and Kimbrel 1. In his one inning, Kimbrel struck out all three Yankees hitters he faced, so I disagree with your assertion that Kimbrel was exhausted, barely able to walk to the mound, etc. That game was 30 Sep, and Kimbrel next pitched (closed, with a save after giving up a dinger) five days later against the same Yankees team.

[Maxbialystock]

If Sale doesn’t get hurt to start the season I don’t think you see Houck, or Whitlock in the rotation unless someone got hurt. Cora picked Houck over Whitlock to start the season in the rotation, but when Houck couldn’t go to Toronto it got switched. Who knows what would have happened if all of that hadn’t taken place, and maybe Whitlock would have been tried as the closer by now.

 

Agree with most. You are probably right that Whitlock started because Houck wouldn't get his covid shots and Sale was/is on the IL.

 

Last year I thought Whitlock was terrific in relief, but he never closed (or almost never) even though Barnes bombed after being terrific, Ottavino closed a bunch of games but not all that well, and even Richards closed a couple of times. I do not think Cora is an idiot, so I have to assume he didn't think--and apparently still doesn't think--Whitlock's niche is as a closer. And, me, I trust Cora's judgment.

 

In addition, I have this idee fixee on what a closer should be/do: fearless, great command, two really good pitches. And I'm not sure that's a good description of Whitlock. It did however, fit Barnes when his knuckle curve and fastball were working, Kojii Uehara with his slow fastball and nasty splitter, Kimbrel with his big knuckle curve and blazing fastball, and probably Papelbon.

 

On the other hand, I'm pretty sure that Sale still only uses three pitches: fastball, slider, and changeup (when it's working). So great as he has been as a starter, and I think he was stupendous in his first two seasons in Boston, he just might be the best choice as closer.

 

Anyway, right now it's Houck because he's earned the shot, despite stumbling tonight. I will be happy to congratulate you when and if Whitlock gets the job and proves he can do it well.

[moonslav59]

I'm mad at Houck, but not Cora. He gave Houck the closer job because nobody else had shown he could do the job--and lots of guys tried. Whitlock, Houck, Diekman, Davis, Brasier, Schreiber, Strahm, Robles, and Barnes have all had save opportunities this season (although I suspect not all were in the 9th inning).

 

And Houck got saves his first two times out, so of course Cora would use him again.

 

And being mad at Houck might be unfair because he is not an experienced closer. But he was the right choice because Davis sure wasn't getting the job done and Houck just got two saves.

 

I'm mad at Houck for not taking one (a VAX) for the team.

[Old Red]

I'm mad at Houck for not taking one (a VAX) for the team.

 

Agree, and don’t forget Sale, and Kutter too. Bottom line Houck crapped his pants last night, and if a few Imodium won’t do the trick outside of a trade the Sox are in deep doo doo especially with the tough part of the schedule coming up. That shouldn’t have been a tough save last night, but Houck turned it into one. Crazy rules too that he was awarded a save.

Edited June 18, 2022 by Old Red

[Bellhorn04]

Agree, and don’t forget Sale, and Kutter too. Bottom line Houck crapped his pants last night, and if a few Imodium won’t do the trick outside of a trade the Sox are in deep doo doo especially with the tough part of the schedule coming up.

 

Houck did get the big K on Goldschmidt to end the game.

[Old Red]

Houck did get the big K on Goldschmidt to end the game.

 

Yes he did, and I don’t doubt his stuff.

[Bellhorn04]

Papelbon and Kimbrel had their share of heart attack saves.

 

The only relaxing closer we've ever had was Koji in 2013, and that was a short-lived phenomenon.

[Old Red]

Papelbon and Kimbrel had their share of heart attack saves.

 

The only relaxing closer we've ever had was Koji in 2013, and that was a short-lived phenomenon.

Radtz was my favorite, but I guess a little before your time.

[Maxbialystock]

Houck did get the big K on Goldschmidt to end the game.

 

Come on. He came into the game with a freaking 6-2 lead and two men out. When he finally got the final out, the score was 6-5.