Carlos Correa is the closest thing to a young Arod we may ever see without PED

[Larry Cook]

The Twins will not be trading Correa for Bogaerts. That really goes without saying. It should not even be mentioned.

 

Regardless of what bogey does after the 2022 season, we just need him to have a great 2022 season. He and devers are the cornerstones of our organization and a great season from them will is a must if we are going to command the American League East!

[dgalehouse]

Regardless of what bogey does after the 2022 season, we just need him to have a great 2022 season. He and devers are the cornerstones of our organization and a great season from them will is a must if we are going to command the American League East!

 

Agree. Bogaerts is an All Star shortstop. I don't know why he gets so many negative comments on here. I think folks study too many metrics. They let that influence their opinions. Whatever.

[moonslav59]

Agree. Bogaerts is an All Star shortstop. I don't know why he gets so many negative comments on here. I think folks study too many metrics. They let that influence their opinions. Whatever.

 

It's the other way around for me.

 

I notice other teams' SSs making more great plays than Bogey, then I look at the metrics and stats, and it confirmed the observations.

 

No joke, I'm obsessed with watching the Sox. I have come very close to watching every possible play of every Sox game for over a decade. That does not make me an expert, and I'm not trying to sound like a know-it-all, but I love defense, especially up the middle and pay very close attention to it- both on our team and the teams we are playing.

 

I have loved man of our players' defense, and I have no bias against Bogey that would make me see what is not there. I can understand the fact that others watch a lot of games, too and don't see what I see. It's just my opinion.

 

The fact that most metrics and stats back up my opinion does make me feel more firmly entrenched in my position, but I do not think the fact that I am a stat freak makes me see things that are not there, delude myself into beliefs based on numbers or enjoy watching the game less than anyone who hates or could care less about metrics or stats.

 

I can think of only one time it worked the other way around. I remember when Ellsbury first came up, I felt he was a plus defender, but the numbers showed otherwise, so I started watching more closely, and started seeing late breaks, bad routes and a sub par arm. I changed my opinion based on stats and further observations, but then over time, Ellsbury improved his defense, and my opinion changed, again. Maybe somebody might think I let the numbers bias me into seeing what I wanted to see, but with Ellsbury, it actually meant I had to admit I was wrong.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 21, 2022 by moonslav59

[Old Red]

Agree. Bogaerts is an All Star shortstop. I don't know why he gets so many negative comments on here. I think folks study too many metrics. They let that influence their opinions. Whatever.

 

Bogey may never win a gold glove as a SS, but he is no col CLINK either. To me metrics run to much of the game, and not for the better. I know lots of people like all the metrics stuff, and good for them, but you shouldn’t judge so much by them.

[moonslav59]

Bogey may never win a gold glove as a SS, but he is no col CLINK either. To me metrics run to much of the game, and not for the better. I know lots of people like all the metrics stuff, and good for them, but you shouldn’t judge so much by them.

 

No MLB SS is horrible on D. Even the worst defensive SS in this century, Jeter, was better on D than 99% of anyone who ever played baseball.

 

It's a comparative analysis, and to me, it shows even without any stats or metrics.

 

I've seen too many opposing team SSs rob our hitters of hit after hit by making spectacular plays to notice if ours is doing the same or not.

 

We've had SSs that do, and some that don't.

 

Bogey makes the plays he gets to, and that helps a lot. Some of the better defensive SSs flub up more of those than he does, and maybe that's what some notice most.

 

He's a deserving all star short stop. He's just not even average on defense, IMO. Others may disagree, and that's one thing this site is all about.

 

I honestly don't mean to sound like someone always ragging on Bogey. The guy is a great player and very valuable to this team. I just happen to think he'd be more valuable at 2B. I know it won't happen, but it's my opinion, and I'm voicing it.

[dgalehouse]

Bogey may never win a gold glove as a SS, but he is no col CLINK either. To me metrics run to much of the game, and not for the better. I know lots of people like all the metrics stuff, and good for them, but you shouldn’t judge so much by them.

 

Trust your own eyesight to form your own opinions. You might be right or you might be wrong, but at least you are basing your opinion on what you have observed. When you put your trust in something like UZR , you are basically just trusting someone else's eyesight to form your opinions. Myself, I like to watch the games and check the box scores. That is good enough for me. Having a thousand different stats is not appealing to me. For those who like that stuff , good for you .

[Old Red]

No MLB SS is horrible on D. Even the worst defensive SS in this century, Jeter, was better on D than 99% of anyone who ever played baseball.

 

It's a comparative analysis, and to me, it shows even without any stats or metrics.

 

I've seen too many opposing team SSs rob our hitters of hit after hit by making spectacular plays to notice if ours is doing the same or not.

 

We've had SSs that do, and some that don't.

 

Bogey makes the plays he gets to, and that helps a lot. Some of the better defensive SSs flub up more of those than he does, and maybe that's what some notice most.

 

He's a deserving all star short stop. He's just not even average on defense, IMO. Others may disagree, and that's one thing this site is all about.

 

I honestly don't mean to sound like someone always ragging on Bogey. The guy is a great player and very valuable to this team. I just happen to think he'd be more valuable at 2B. I know it won't happen, but it's my opinion, and I'm voicing it.

 

I’ve seen all Red Sox SS from Eddie Bressoud to Bogey. To say Bogey is not even average on defense yes we will disagree on that. In time he may move to 2nd, or 3B like Rico, Hoffman, or Johnny V just to name a few, but in my opinion it doesn’t need to happen right now, and he way it sounds it won’t. Remember in Cora we trust.

[moonslav59]

I’ve seen all Red Sox SS from Eddie Bressoud to Bogey. To say Bogey is not even average on defense yes we will disagree on that. In time he may move to 2nd, or 3B like Rico, Hoffman, or Johnny V just to name a few, but in my opinion it doesn’t need to happen right now, and he way it sounds it won’t. Remember in Cora we trust.

 

You watch the other teams' SSs and think Bogey is average or better?

[Old Red]

You watch the other teams' SSs and think Bogey is average or better?

 

I’ve already said that, and said we will disagree. What more do you want me to say? You have your opinion, and I have mine. Your opinion, or my opinion is not going to get Bogey off SS, or keep him at SS. Why don’t you ask Cora what kind of SS he thinks Bogey is?

[moonslav59]

... in my opinion it doesn’t need to happen right now, and he way it sounds it won’t.

 

I've never said it "needs to happen right now," either, and before you say "I never said you said it," I know you didn't.

 

I don't think it will happen, either.

 

It doesn't make me think any worse of Cora, because he has been placed in a difficult position. The good thing is that no matter what he chooses, we are better with Story than without him.

 

I'm glad we signed a plus fielding SS. Maybe the timing was off a bit, but waiting for a better one might not ever work out. I'm glad Story has graciously accepted the move to 2B. Deep down, I had wished Bogey would have done that, but I don't blame him for wanting what's best for him and his family. I hold no grudges against Bogey for not wanting to switch. I totally understand his position.

 

This doesn't mean I have to agree that Story at 2B and Bogey at SS is the better alignment.

 

[notin]

Trust your own eyesight to form your own opinions. You might be right or you might be wrong, but at least you are basing your opinion on what you have observed. When you put your trust in something like UZR , you are basically just trusting someone else's eyesight to form your opinions. Myself, I like to watch the games and check the box scores. That is good enough for me. Having a thousand different stats is not appealing to me. For those who like that stuff , good for you .

 

Well, we used to judge defense with stats like errors and fielding percentage. But errors are really just some guy’s opinion made official. The rulebook even says so…

[moonslav59]

I’ve already said that, and said we will disagree. What more do you want me to say?

 

Okay, you had mentioned something about seeing a bunch of Red Sox SSs, so I wasn't sure you meant average among them or among all MLB SSs.

 

Thanks for clarifying something that apparently never needed clarifying.

 

BTW, this whole I called Bloom and why don't I ask Cora ranting is childish.

 

What manager would ever say he thinks his player is below average, even if it was true? What would be the point of asking Cora?

 

BTW, was Kennedy lying? Call him and ask.

[Old Red]

I've never said it "needs to happen right now," either, and before you say "I never said you said it," I know you didn't.

 

I don't think it will happen, either.

 

It doesn't make me think any worse of Cora, because he has been placed in a difficult position. The good thing is that no matter what he chooses, we are better with Story than without him.

 

I'm glad we signed a plus fielding SS. Maybe the timing was off a bit, but waiting for a better one might not ever work out. I'm glad Story has graciously accepted the move to 2B. Deep down, I had wished Bogey would have done that, but I don't blame him for wanting what's best for him and his family. I hold no grudges against Bogey for not wanting to switch. I totally understand his position.

 

This doesn't mean I have to agree that Story at 2B and Bogey at SS is the better alignment.

 

 

What about the report that Story’s arm strength has deteriorated the last two years?Isn’t 11 throwing errors last year sound like a problem?

[Old Red]

Okay, you had mentioned something about seeing a bunch of Red Sox SSs, so I wasn't sure you meant average among them or among all MLB SSs.

 

Thanks for clarifying something that apparently never needed clarifying.

 

BTW, this whole I called Bloom and why don't I ask Cora ranting is childish.

 

What manager would ever say he thinks his player is below average, even if it was true? What would be the point of asking Cora?

 

BTW, was Kennedy lying? Call him and ask.

 

The point being that asking Cora he may disagree with you, and I really don’t care if Kennedy was lying one way, or the other. Like I said earlier I think your more exited to have Kennedy, or me wrong than to sign Story, which you said made little sense.

[moonslav59]

Well, we used to judge defense with stats like errors and fielding percentage. But errors are really just some guy’s opinion made official. The rulebook even says so…

 

IMO, most of the old school defensive posters at least agree Bogey gets to less balls hit than the majority of SSs.

 

I remember when RF9 became the shiny stat, and that's not a metric, either.

 

Just for giggles...

 

RF/9

 

4.32 Story

 

3.83 Bogey

 

That's about a half a play more per game or 80 more over 162 games.

 

How many more errors than Bogey does Story have to make to make up for those 80 outs he makes per 162?

 

There, I went old school!

 

 

[Old Red]

IMO, most of the old school defensive posters at least agree Bogey gets to less balls hit than the majority of SSs.

 

I remember when RF9 became the shiny stat, and that's not a metric, either.

 

Just for giggles...

 

RF/9

 

4.32 Story

 

3.83 Bogey

 

That's about a half a play more per game or 80 more over 162 games.

 

How many more errors than Bogey does Story have to make to make up for those 80 outs he makes per 162?

 

There, I went old school!

 

 

 

Are you proud of yourself for going old school? Give yourself a pat on the back, and when you are done You can watch Bogey play SS.

[Old Red]

Okay, you had mentioned something about seeing a bunch of Red Sox SSs, so I wasn't sure you meant average among them or among all MLB SSs.

 

Thanks for clarifying something that apparently never needed clarifying.

 

BTW, this whole I called Bloom and why don't I ask Cora ranting is childish.

 

What manager would ever say he thinks his player is below average, even if it was true? What would be the point of asking Cora?

 

BTW, was Kennedy lying? Call him and ask.

 

Going with the old fallback, and name calling. Saying someone is childish is childish in itself.

[moonslav59]

The point being that asking Cora he may disagree with you, and I really don’t care if Kennedy was lying one way, or the other. Like I said earlier I think your more exited to have Kennedy, or me wrong than to sign Story, which you said made little sense.

 

I seriously doubt Cora thinks Bogey is a better defensive SS than Story, but we'll never know.

 

BTW, I wanted us to sign Baez, and I have brought up many points in favor of signing Story. What makes little sense to me, is to play the inferior defender at SS, but that is all based on my opinion, and I realize it's just an opinion. You keep acting like I think all my opinions are fact.

 

I can't prove what Cora thinks about the issue any more than you can. I brought up the Kennedy thing to show that even if you get an answer from a head honcho, it doesn't always mean they were being 100% truthful, but that point whizzed right though your head, and you go off making crazy statements about me being happier you and Kennedy were wrong than us signing Story.

 

Do you even listen to yourself?

 

You twist and turn much of what others say then fall back on, "I never said you said that," or take quotes totally out of context.

 

I'm excited we signed a very good defensive SS. Anyone who knows me and my positions on SS defense knows I'm happy he's on our roster.

 

Was the timing right? Was what the signing did to Bogey & Cora something of beauty?

 

Fine, you think Bogey is a good fielder and don't see any significant problems. Good for you. However, I would bet that if you disagreed, you'd say it and defend it. I'm not sure why you have to say crap like "Call Cora."

 

On a parting note, I would like to know if you think Kennedy was lying or not, whether you care if he was or not. What's your opinion on that?

[moonslav59]

Going with the old fallback, and name calling. Saying someone is childish is childish in itself.

 

You need clarification, as always.

 

Saying something someone does is childish is not calling them childish.

 

It's not name-calling. You and 700 have serious issues understanding that difference.

 

It's about one thing you said or did, not their personality or nature, although I'm starting to wonder about that.

 

[moonslav59]

Are you proud of yourself for going old school? Give yourself a pat on the back, and when you are done You can watch Bogey play SS.

 

Yes, and watch about 80 plays over the year where I say, "Story would have made that play."

 

BTW, this was my first post on the Story signing. Think context, and stop taking just one piece out of everything I wrote. Disagree all you want, but don't act like I hated the signing just because it made things a bit complicated and perplexing. There is a lot of gray area between black & white:

 

There is an opt out, where the Sox can choose to keep him at a higher rate.

 

While Story certainly helps the team, I have to say this makes little sense to me. To choose this guy to go large and long on after going so long passing on better fits is a bit confounding. His Home -Away splits are frightening.

 

The plan has been announced to use the much better defender at 2B and keep Bogey at SS. I'm sorry but this kills me, and it puts an enormous strain on Bogey. If he was "a true team player," he'd agree to play 2B. Why force this on him (and Cora?)

 

Now, the bright side. We have a SS going forward. We can now play Kike in CF full time. Arroyo and Duran go to the bench FT, which greatly strengthens that area. One signing improved 2B, CF, the bench and our back-up SS situation.

 

That being said, I had thought I'd rather have had Baez at the exact same money. He's a very good defensive SS, too, but he has better H-A splits, but when you look more closely, they are pretty close. Story's away numbers are just slightly worse than Baez's. The defense looks pretty even.

 

Career comp: (Both almost the exact same ages)

 

.264/.307/.477/.783 Baez (.777 Home/.789 Away & .752 v R/.882 v L)

 

.272/.340/.523/.863 Story (.972 Home/.752 Away & .809 v R/1.002 v L)

 

2018-2021

.270/.311/.508/.819 Baez

.281/.348/.532/.880 Story

 

Defense:

3.5 UZR/150 Baez 69 DRS in 6305 innings

2.8 UZR/150 Story 49 DRS in 3650 innings

0.3 UZR/150 Bogey -47 DRS in 6847 innings

 

Makes me wonder if trading Bogey, now or at the deadline, is being looked or and discussed internally.

[Old Red]

I seriously doubt Cora thinks Bogey is a better defensive SS than Story, but we'll never know.

 

BTW, I wanted us to sign Baez, and I have brought up many points in favor of signing Story. What makes little sense to me, is to play the inferior defender at SS, but that is all based on my opinion, and I realize it's just an opinion. You keep acting like I think all my opinions are fact.

 

I can't prove what Cora thinks about the issue any more than you can. I brought up the Kennedy thing to show that even if you get an answer from a head honcho, it doesn't always mean they were being 100% truthful, but that point whizzed right though your head, and you go off making crazy statements about me being happier you and Kennedy were wrong than us signing Story.

 

Do you even listen to yourself?

 

You twist and turn much of what others say then fall back on, "I never said you said that," or take quotes totally out of context.

 

I'm excited we signed a very good defensive SS. Anyone who knows me and my positions on SS defense knows I'm happy he's on our roster.

 

Was the timing right? Was what the signing did to Bogey & Cora something of beauty?

 

Fine, you think Bogey is a good fielder and don't see any significant problems. Good for you. However, I would bet that if you disagreed, you'd say it and defend it. I'm not sure why you have to say crap like "Call Cora."

 

On a parting note, I would like to know if you think Kennedy was lying or not, whether you care if he was or not. What's your opinion on that?

 

Don’t flatter yourself. I have NEVER THOUGHT your opinions were facts. I am very well aware that when anyone speaks from management like Kennedy that it is just management speak, so nothing went wizzing by my head especially from you, so why do you keep bring Kennedy up only to prove someone is wrong. How many more times do I have to tell you my opinion about Bogey? We disagree, and I’m not changing that opinion no matter how many disagree, or don’t like it. I don’t think Kennedy was lying, but the opportunity came up on Story, and they jumped in. He didn’t want to go back to Colorado, and other teams backed out.

[Old Red]

Yes, and watch about 80 plays over the year where I say, "Story would have made that play."

 

BTW, this was my first post on the Story signing. Think context, and stop taking just one piece out of everything I wrote. Disagree all you want, but don't act like I hated the signing just because it made things a bit complicated and perplexing. There is a lot of gray area between black & white:

 

There is an opt out, where the Sox can choose to keep him at a higher rate.

 

While Story certainly helps the team, I have to say this makes little sense to me. To choose this guy to go large and long on after going so long passing on better fits is a bit confounding. His Home -Away splits are frightening.

 

The plan has been announced to use the much better defender at 2B and keep Bogey at SS. I'm sorry but this kills me, and it puts an enormous strain on Bogey. If he was "a true team player," he'd agree to play 2B. Why force this on him (and Cora?)

 

Now, the bright side. We have a SS going forward. We can now play Kike in CF full time. Arroyo and Duran go to the bench FT, which greatly strengthens that area. One signing improved 2B, CF, the bench and our back-up SS situation.

 

That being said, I had thought I'd rather have had Baez at the exact same money. He's a very good defensive SS, too, but he has better H-A splits, but when you look more closely, they are pretty close. Story's away numbers are just slightly worse than Baez's. The defense looks pretty even.

 

Career comp: (Both almost the exact same ages)

 

.264/.307/.477/.783 Baez (.777 Home/.789 Away & .752 v R/.882 v L)

 

.272/.340/.523/.863 Story (.972 Home/.752 Away & .809 v R/1.002 v L)

 

2018-2021

.270/.311/.508/.819 Baez

.281/.348/.532/.880 Story

 

Defense:

3.5 UZR/150 Baez 69 DRS in 6305 innings

2.8 UZR/150 Story 49 DRS in 3650 innings

0.3 UZR/150 Bogey -47 DRS in 6847 innings

 

Makes me wonder if trading Bogey, now or at the deadline, is being looked or and discussed internally.

 

Have fun all year comparing what balls Bogey, and Story will get to. Me when I do watch I won’t compare at all.

[moonslav59]

Don’t flatter yourself. I have NEVER THOUGHT your opinions were facts. I am very well aware that when anyone speaks from management like Kennedy that it is just management speak, so nothing went wizzing by my head especially from you, so why do you keep bring Kennedy up only to prove someone is wrong. How many more times do I have to tell you my opinion about Bogey? We disagree, and I’m not changing that opinion no matter how many disagree, or don’t like it. I don’t think Kennedy was lying, but the opportunity came up on Story, and they jumped in. He didn’t want to go back to Colorado, and other teams backed out.

 

Superb back peddling!

 

You do respond to posters, not just me, not like you think what we saying are facts. You missed the point, as always.

 

Try to keep up.

 

You respond like you think WE THINK WHAT WE ARE SAYING IS FACT and not just an opinion, not that you think it is fact.

 

And yes, stuff whizzes by your head, often. Like this right here.

[Swiharts Ghost]

I’m not attacking anybody here won’t do it any longer it’s Fing stupid .My opinion is this .Bogey has a Noodle arm terrible Range bad footwork and pats his glove everyyyyy flipping play .Xander Is not an elite SS and should not be playing SS on the Redsox never mind the Carolina Mudcats .Bogey however is a Stuuuuuuuuuuud offensivee player who ooooozes confidence at the plate ....if there was a prototype baseball player to show little green men a thousand years from now it’s Bogey ...That said he would slot in nice at second tomorrow.Second base you react no time for patty mitt and plays over ...he’s our captain and the Face of The Redsox he’s also a huuuuuge reason Story came here .Xander needs an extension period and all will fall into place .....Pay the man 8 years 200 .

[moonslav59]

Have fun all year comparing what balls Bogey, and Story will get to. Me when I do watch I won’t compare at all.

 

It won't really be "fun," especially if we miss out on something great by a hair.

 

I'm sure I'm not the only one who watches a play and thinks, "most MLB players make that play." I've been on the game threads to know it bothers me less than many others, but that doesn't mean it goes unnoticed.

[Old Red]

You need clarification, as always.

 

Saying something someone does is childish is not calling them childish.

 

It's not name-calling. You and 700 have serious issues understanding that difference.

 

It's about one thing you said or did, not their personality or nature, although I'm starting to wonder about that.

 

 

So I guess you don’t do anything that’s childish, or say anything that’s childish on here? Is that your stance? Just clarifying.

[Old Red]

It won't really be "fun," especially if we miss out on something great by a hair.

 

I'm sure I'm not the only one who watches a play and thinks, "most MLB players make that play." I've been on the game threads to know it bothers me less than many others, but that doesn't mean it goes unnoticed.

 

Well I guess if the Red Sox miss out on something great by a hair then the only one to blame would be Cora.

[Old Red]

Superb back peddling!

 

You do respond to posters, not just me, not like you think what we saying are facts. You missed the point, as always.

 

Try to keep up.

 

You respond like you think WE THINK WHAT WE ARE SAYING IS FACT and not just an opinion, not that you think it is fact.

 

And yes, stuff whizzes by your head, often. Like this right here.

 

Who said I didn’t respond to posters? I said hours ago we disagreed on Bogey, and yet for some reason you want to keep it going, when no one is going to change their opinions. You watch Bogey how you want to watch Bogey, and Judge Bogey how you want to judge Bogey, and I will do the same.

[moonslav59]

Well I guess if the Red Sox miss out on something great by a hair then the only one to blame would be Cora.

 

Your words not mine.

 

I would not blame Cora. I don't always have to put blame on one person or spread it out over others.

 

I guess, with a gun to my head, I'd place the most "blame" (your word not mine) on Bloom for the bad timing and Bogeyy for not doing what was best for the team, but both of them have good reasons for doing what they did.

 

It's about big picture and context, but it doesn't mean I can't point out some inconsistencies along the way at one particular part of the grand scheme of things.

 

Cora is doing what he has to do, and what he and bloom decided to do. He is not perfect, but I don't this as his mistake, like Swihart is screaming about.

[Old Red]

Superb back peddling!

 

You do respond to posters, not just me, not like you think what we saying are facts. You missed the point, as always.

 

Try to keep up.

 

You respond like you think WE THINK WHAT WE ARE SAYING IS FACT and not just an opinion, not that you think it is fact.

 

And yes, stuff whizzes by your head, often. Like this right here.

 

And just like I have said before. Just when you think you know the answers I change the questions. Whizz away, whizz away, whizz away.