Trivia notes and questions (some of which may not be answerable)

[moonslav59]

Yes, that seems to be one of our specialties.

 

Each of those names seem to have a story attached, and most did not work out all that well on their return.

 

Trading Cecil Cooper for Scott has to be one of the worst deals in Red Sox history.

[Bellhorn04]

Each of those names seem to have a story attached, and most did not work out all that well on their return.

 

Trading Cecil Cooper for Scott has to be one of the worst deals in Red Sox history.

 

Terrible.

[moonslav59]

Terrible.

 

The original George Scott trade to MIL is the reason I am a Sox fan, today, and that was a bad trade, too.

 

George Scott was traded by the Boston Red Sox with Ken Brett, Billy Conigliaro, Joe Lahoud, Jim Lonborg and Don Pavletich to the Milwaukee Brewers for Pat Skrable (minors), Tommy Harper, Lew Krausse and Marty Pattin.

 

I used to live in Milwaukee and still am a Bucks and Packers fan. My favorite player on the Brewers was Tommy Harper. Shortly after we moved from Milwaukee to Portland, Maine, this trade was made, and I switched to being a Sox fan.

 

Sidenote: We did get Bernie Carbo with Scott in that Cooper trade.

 

Carbo is a two time trade acquisition by the Sox.

 

We traded Reggie Smith and ken Tatum for Carbo & Rick Wise in Oct '73.

We traded Carbo to MIL for Bobby darwin & Tom Murphy in June '76.

That December, we traded Cooper to MIL for Carbo & Scott.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Sox tried to bring back Damon for the stretch run in 2010, but he refused because he'd rather stay on the sub-.500 Tigers at the time.

 

His feewings were still hurt from getting booed at Fenway from wearing f***ing pinstwipes. Egobrainiac.

[harmony]

Is this Yankee bait accurate?

 

[Bellhorn04]

The Red Sox are now over .500 but still in last place.

 

Since MLB expanded from 4 to divisions to 6 divisions, no team has ever finished over .500 and in last place. But the 2005 Nationals came close, finishing 81-81 and in last.

 

After that the best record by a last place team is 78-84. It's been done 3 times, twice by, you guessed it, the Red Sox, in 2015 and 2022.

[moonslav59]

The Red Sox are now over .500 but still in last place.

 

Since MLB expanded from 4 to divisions to 6 divisions, no team has ever finished over .500 and in last place. But the 2005 Nationals came close, finishing 81-81 and in last.

 

After that the best record by a last place team is 78-84. It's been done 3 times, twice by, you guessed it, the Red Sox, in 2015 and 2022.

 

Playing way less games vs our own division should increase the chances of the ALE last place team to break that record.

 

All ALE teams cannot make the playoffs, so we will have to pass at least one ALE team to make the show. It won't be easy, since 4 of the top 5 AL teams are from the ALE. Not even harmony has anything to say about the near complete ALE dominancy. The 4th place teams are 12-8. That's on pace for 108-54 records!

 

4 teams on pace for 108+ win seasons!

 

All this being said, I still like our chances. I'm sticking to my belief that our SP'ing is not nearly as bad as it has looked. The rotation has already started to look better, and there is room for more, as well as chances that guys like Paxton, Mata or Walter, and of course Crawford might infuse some pluses, when needed.

 

Since April 4th, some ERAs are not great, or even good, but some are vast improvements on what they were over the first 14 days of the season:

1.26 Crawford

2.03 Winckowski (not a starter but is 5th in IP over the last 14 days)

3.94 Houck (3.40 last 14 days)

4.43 Pivetta (just one bad start, all year)

4.50 Whitlock (showing great signs he is back from his injury)

5.40 Sale (needs some back-to-back good outings, starting now.)

(7.36 Kluber is "weak link" that may need replacing after a few more starts.)

 

 

 

[Bellhorn04]

Someone probably already pointed this out, but a pitcher can now be charged with a loss even if they retire every batter they face, even if no batter they face reaches base.

 

It happened to Albert Abreu in the Yankees' loss to the Mets last game.

 

Why? Because Abreu was "responsible" for the ghost runner who scored after he was replaced.

[Dipre]

Someone probably already pointed this out, but a pitcher can now be charged with a loss even if they retire every batter they face, even if no batter they face reaches base.

 

It happened to Albert Abreu in the Yankees' loss to the Mets last game.

 

Why? Because Abreu was "responsible" for the ghost runner who scored after he was replaced.

 

Should've picked him off.

[Bellhorn04]

Should've picked him off.

 

Good point.

[moonslav59]

One more small tidbit of information highlighting the flaws of using the W-L records to judge pitchers.

[dgalehouse]

The value of won/loss records for pitchers is a subject for debate. But this is such a rare occurrence that it is not relevant to that debate. The ghost runner rule is plain stupid.

[Dipre]

The value of won/loss records for pitchers is a subject for debate. But this is such a rare occurrence that it is not relevant to that debate. The ghost runner rule is plain stupid.

 

So are wins and losses for pitchers. They complement each other.

[moonslav59]

The value of won/loss records for pitchers is a subject for debate. But this is such a rare occurrence that it is not relevant to that debate. The ghost runner rule is plain stupid.

 

So are some of the rules that determine who gets the win and who gets the loss- not just this ghost runner one.

 

A pitcher goes 4.2 shut out innings, but the next guy lets up 5 runs but leads with the lead. The 5 run guy gets the win.

 

Is one rule more stupid than the other?

[dgalehouse]

It seems that sometimes the wrong guy gets credit for the win. Some pitchers seem to get more run support than others. When you see a starter with a good won/loss record and a high ERA or vice versa , you might need to look deeper. I know all the talking points both pro and con. I am not going to debate them now. After all is said and done , I don't think a pitcher's won/loss record is entirely meaningless. Winning is , after all, the object of the game. But the " ghost runner " is an abomination meant only to try and get the game over with quickly.

[moonslav59]

It seems that sometimes the wrong guy gets credit for the win. Some pitchers seem to get more run support than others. When you see a starter with a good won/loss record and a high ERA or vice versa , you might need to look deeper. I know all the talking points both pro and con. I am not going to debate them now. After all is said and done , I don't think a pitcher's won/loss record is entirely meaningless. Winning is , after all, the object of the game. But the " ghost runner " is an abomination meant only to try and get the game over with quickly.

 

I don't like the ghost runner, either.

 

The W-L issues has been discussed to death. I'm fine with letting it rest.

[Bellhorn04]

Once upon a time wins and losses meant more, when starters were routinely pitching complete games or close to it.

 

Though there were still the distortions caused by run support.

 

I got into baseball statistics early, and in 1968, when I was 12, I was fascinated by the records of McLain and Gibson.

 

McLain 31-6 1.96 ERA

Gibson 22-9 1.12 ERA

 

This was my introduction to the concept that pitchers with good hitting teams behind them have better records.

[Bellhorn04]

In 1968 Yaz was the only hitter in the AL to hit .300, at .301. Number Two was, you guessed it, Danny Cater at .290.

 

Yaz was at .269 on August 13, before hitting .372 in his last 44 games.

 

I remember thinking it was a disappointing year for him nonetheless, after his Triple Crown year. Looking at it now, his OPS of .922 and OPS+ of 171 were not too shabby.

 

Leading the NL in hitting in 1968 was Pete Rose at .335.

[moonslav59]

In 1968 Yaz was the only hitter in the AL to hit .300, at .301. Number Two was, you guessed it, Danny Cater at .290.

 

Yaz was at .269 on August 13, before hitting .372 in his last 44 games.

 

I remember thinking it was a disappointing year for him nonetheless, after his Triple Crown year. Looking at it now, his OPS of .922 and OPS+ of 171 were not too shabby....

 

That 171 OPS+ was the 3rd best in his career.

 

193 1967

177 1970

171 1968

156 1965

(All led the league)

 

The next were 148 in '63 and 139 and 140 in '73 and '74.

 

Some perspective:

 

Top Ortiz OPS+ (Never led league in OPS+)

173 in 2012

171 in '07

 

Manny (never led league in OPS+ w BOS)

186 w CLE in '00

184 w BOS '02

174 w CLE '99 (only year he led the league in this category)

166 in '08 w 2 teams

(He had 12 seasons over 150 and 16 over 144!

Edited June 16, 2023 by moonslav59

[moonslav59]

Once upon a time wins and losses meant more, when starters were routinely pitching complete games or close to it.

 

Though there were still the distortions caused by run support.

 

I got into baseball statistics early, and in 1968, when I was 12, I was fascinated by the records of McLain and Gibson.

 

McLain 31-6 1.96 ERA

Gibson 22-9 1.12 ERA

 

This was my introduction to the concept that pitchers with good hitting teams behind them have better records.

 

One interesting about that 1968 season is this...

 

1.12 ERA by Gibson was a 258 ERA+

 

Pedro:

1.74 ERA in 2000 was a 291 ERA+

(He led the league 5 times in ERA+ and had 7 straight seasons over 163 (6 of 7 over 188 and 5 of 7 over 202)

 

Different eras.

 

Gibson led in ERA+ twice in his career and was only over a 164 ERA+ that one season. Pedro did it 7 straight seasons!

 

[sk7326]

One interesting about that 1968 season is this...

 

1.12 ERA by Gibson was a 258 ERA+

 

Pedro:

1.74 ERA in 2000 was a 291 ERA+

(He led the league 5 times in ERA+ and had 7 straight seasons over 163 (6 of 7 over 188 and 5 of 7 over 202)

 

Different eras.

 

Gibson led in ERA+ twice in his career and was only over a 164 ERA+ that one season. Pedro did it 7 straight seasons!

 

 

Pedro's 1997-2000 is probably the best I'll ever see a pitcher do it. And that is fully acknowledging Clemens' ridiculous output (insert PED opinion here), The Big Unit, and Maddux's elegant brilliance.

 

Like Pedro's 1.74 ERA led the majors by almost a full run. Kevin Brown was 2nd at 2.58. In the American League, Pedro was almost 2 full runs clear of 2nd place! (Clemens 3.70). Clemens was closer to 34th place among qualified AL starters than he was to 1st!

[Thunder]

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