Dave Bush hired as pitching coach

[Elktonnick]

I suspect he will embrace the new philosophy, and that has a lot to do with why they hired him, and he knows it.

 

That seems like an overly optimistic assumption.

[Bellhorn04]

That seems like an overly optimistic assumption.

 

So you think the reasonable assumption is that they hired someone who doesn't embrace the new philosophy, is that it?

[notin]

Yea like LaVangie

 

Ah Recency Bias rears its ugly head.

 

Bush is a different person with a different background and professional history. If the Sox wanted another LaVangie, they never would have fired the first one...

[moonslav59]

I guess what he's saying is that even if Bush is the best coach in the world, and who of us know who really is, we should not ever hire him, because he was within the broken system.

[Kimmi]

The Red Sox themselves admitted that they needed to rethink their entire approach toward pitching and the development of pitchers throughout their organization. So when they have an opportunity to bring in a true outsider to help lead that effort they decide to promote an internal candidate. As a wise man once said, "If you always do what you always did, you always get what you always got!"

 

Isn't this a large part of why they brought Bloom in?

[Kimmi]

I suspect he will embrace the new philosophy, and that has a lot to do with why they hired him, and he knows it.

 

Absolutely.

[Elktonnick]

I guess what he's saying is that even if Bush is the best coach in the world, and who of us know who really is, we should not ever hire him, because he was within the broken system.

I am and I think it is a reasonable conclusion.

 

BTW I know from personal experience that this happens all the time in organizations who are really committed to instituting a cultural change, they hire an outsider regardless of whether there is a well qualified internal candidate. It is this reason that I am skeptical about how much autonomy Bloom will actually I have. I suspect not as much as his predecessors have had.

[Kimmi]

I am and I think it is a reasonable conclusion.

 

BTW I know from personal experience that this happens all the time in organizations who are really committed to instituting a cultural change, they hire an outsider regardless of whether there is a well qualified internal candidate. It is this reason that I am skeptical about how much autonomy Bloom will actually I have. I suspect not as much as his predecessors have had.

 

Bloom has emphasized the importance of collaboration. He is not going to be making decisions on his own, even if he were given complete autonomy from the FO. That was one of the reported issues with Dombrowski.

[Elktonnick]

Bloom has emphasized the importance of collaboration. He is not going to be making decisions on his own, even if he were given complete autonomy from the FO. That was one of the reported issues with Dombrowski.

 

Face it Bloom isn't going to be Chief of anything. He is going to be the Coordinator of Baseball Operations. We go from closer by committee to GM by committee. What could possibly go wrong?

[Bellhorn04]

With Bloom's hiring, BTW, I wonder what happened to those stories about the Sox not being to able to attract top talent because of the chaos and toxic atmosphere and all that?

[Elktonnick]

With Bloom's hiring, BTW, I wonder what happened to those stories about the Sox not being to able to attract top talent because of the chaos and toxic atmosphere and all that?

 

They may be proven to have been true. Bloom hasn't done anything yet to prove or disprove the conjecture.

[harmony]

With Bloom's hiring, BTW, I wonder what happened to those stories about the Sox not being to able to attract top talent because of the chaos and toxic atmosphere and all that?

Chaim Bloom appears to be a solid hire but who's to say he wasn't behind Andrew Friedman, Theo Epstein, Mike Hazen, Derek Halvey and others on the list of preferred candidates?

 

https://www.masslive.com/redsox/2019/10/boston-red-sox-gm-candidates-whos-left-with-andrew-friedman-other-top-experienced-candidates-unavailable.html

[Bellhorn04]

Chaim Bloom appears to be a solid hire but who's to say he wasn't behind Andrew Friedman, Theo Epstein, Mike Hazen, Derek Halvey and others on the list of preferred candidates?

 

https://www.masslive.com/redsox/2019/10/boston-red-sox-gm-candidates-whos-left-with-andrew-friedman-other-top-experienced-candidates-unavailable.html

 

Friedman and Epstein were longshots at best. Pipe dreams might be an even more apt description.

[harmony]

Friedman and Epstein were longshots at best. Pipe dreams might be an even more apt description.

Their perception of the Red Sox situation may have contributed to the long odds.

 

Or not.

[Bellhorn04]

Their perception of the Red Sox situation may have contributed to the long odds.

 

Or not.

 

It's possible. But they have pretty good gigs as it is.

[notin]

Chaim Bloom appears to be a solid hire but who's to say he wasn't behind Andrew Friedman, Theo Epstein, Mike Hazen, Derek Halvey and others on the list of preferred candidates?

 

https://www.masslive.com/redsox/2019/10/boston-red-sox-gm-candidates-whos-left-with-andrew-friedman-other-top-experienced-candidates-unavailable.html

 

Fairly certain the Red Sox did hire Mike Hazen at one point...

[Kimmi]

Face it Bloom isn't going to be Chief of anything. He is going to be the Coordinator of Baseball Operations. We go from closer by committee to GM by committee. What could possibly go wrong?

 

IMO, Bloom will be much more on the same page with the current high ranking FO employees than Dombrowski was. Hence, the decisions will be much more collaborative, rather than having the feel of a "Chief" making decisions on his own. Call it GM by committee if you want, but I think it's a good thing to have a FO leader who is open to what the rest of his/her staff has to say.

 

Let me be on record as saying that I am very happy about both the Bloom and Bush hirings.

[Kimmi]

With Bloom's hiring, BTW, I wonder what happened to those stories about the Sox not being to able to attract top talent because of the chaos and toxic atmosphere and all that?

 

I think there was some truth to that, especially for guys like Friedman and Theo who are already the top guy in their organizations.

 

But as with most of those stories, it was also likely exaggerated. I think it would be difficult for a young executive like Bloom to turn down the opportunity.

[Elktonnick]

IMO, Bloom will be much more on the same page with the current high ranking FO employees than Dombrowski was. Hence, the decisions will be much more collaborative, rather than having the feel of a "Chief" making decisions on his own. Call it GM by committee if you want, but I think it's a good thing to have a FO leader who is open to what the rest of his/her staff has to say.

 

Let me be on record as saying that I am very happy about both the Bloom and Bush hirings.

Kimmi I would be thunderstuck if you weren't happy with the Bloom or Bush hiring. Not to be inpurtent, but I think Henry and Co could paint the green monster bright yellow and you would find a way to applaud the move.

Edited November 2, 2019 by Elktonnick

[Bellhorn04]

Kimmi I would be thunderstorm if you weren't happy with the Bloom or Bush hiring. Not to be inpurtent, but I think Henry and Co could paint the green monster bright yellow and you would find a way to applaud the move.

 

You're way off the mark. She has criticized many a move, most notably the replacement of Ben by DD.

[Elktonnick]

You're way off the mark. She has criticized many a move, most notably the replacement of Ben by DD.

 

Defending Ben who would have thunk it!

[notin]

Defending Ben who would have thunk it!

 

Actually she disliked Dombrowski’s history of tearing down farm systems for short term gain and long term question marks. And that’s a much more legitimate complaint than you have about Bush...

[Elktonnick]

Actually she disliked Dombrowski’s history of tearing down farm systems for short term gain and long term question marks. And that’s a much more legitimate complaint than you have about Bush...

 

Yea I much rather have a top farm system than win the world series. I wonder many baseball fans prefer having a great double A team rather than a world series title. I am sure that all those Nats fans who lined the streets of Washington are really pissed because their farm system is only ranked 17th. NESN rating really soar when the broadcast those PawSox games too.

 

That's why every year the team with the top farm system gets a parade. Oh they don't get a parade. Gee I wonder why not?

 

Earth to Notin 99 percent of Red Sox fans could care less about the state of the farm system and that's not why DD got fired.

Edited November 3, 2019 by Elktonnick

[notin]

Yea I much rather have a top farm system than win the world series. I wonder many baseball fans prefer having a great double A team rather than a world series title. I am sure that all those Nats fans who lined the streets of Washington are really pissed because their farm system is only ranked 17th. NESN rating really soar when the broadcast those PawSox games too.

 

That's why every year the team with the top farm system gets a parade. Oh they don't get a parade. Gee I wonder why not?

 

Earth to Notin 99 percent of Red Sox fans could care less about the state of the farm system and that's not why DD got fired.

 

Earth to Elktonnick. It’s really great that you like to call out other people’s gripes as stupid. But to do so on the heels of your own idiotic complaint that Bush was the wrong hire simply because he was already within the Sox organization is not the way to make yourself look intelligent in the process.

 

But it’s good to see that you’re clearly happy with the current state of the Sox roster and budgetary limits and have no issue waving goodbye to Betts....

[Elktonnick]

Earth to Elktonnick. It’s really great that you like to call out other people’s gripes as stupid. But to do so on the heels of your own idiotic complaint that Bush was the wrong hire simply because he was already within the Sox organization is not the way to make yourself look intelligent in the process.

 

But it’s good to see that you’re clearly happy with the current state of the Sox roster and budgetary limits and have no issue waving goodbye to Betts....

 

I may use sarcasm and am sardonic but I am not so crude as to refer to some one I disagree with as idiotic. And I did not call anyone in this series of posts stupid as the record will show. The only one to use that pejorative was you.

 

I don't know how much experience you have had hiring and firing people but I can assure you virtually every high performance organization does precisely that namely eschew an otherwise qualified internal candidate in favor of an outsider precisely to achieve a desired cultural technological shift especially when it comes to something like wishing an organization to revamp the way it preforms a particular task in this case revamp its approach toward pitching albeit a technical skill.

 

The budgetary constraints are totally self imposed. Henry knew what he was getting when he hired DD. DD did exactly what Henry wanted and expected him to do to win a title which he did. DD's termination had absolutely nothing to do with the state of the farm. DD was fired because of personality conflicts within the organization.

 

As to the state of the farm, you may find it as a reason to bemoan DDs tenure but I suspect very few of the two million plus Sox fans who watched that victory parade after the 2018 championship did. It simply was the price that Henry was willing to pay to win. As I said call me when they hold the parade for the franchise with the best farm system.

[notin]

I may use sarcasm and am sardonic but I am not so crude as to refer to some one I disagree with as idiotic. And I did not call anyone in this series of posts stupid as the record will show. The only one to use that pejorative was you.

 

Actually I called out complaints and gripes as stupid and idiotic, but not people. There is a big difference. And in many eyes - sarcastically mocking someone else’s idea or complaint is the same as calling it stupid. Avoiding using the word doesn’t always mean avoiding the meaning.

 

I don't know how much experience you have had hiring and firing people but I can assure you virtually every high performance organization does precisely that namely eschew an otherwise qualified internal candidate in favor of an outsider precisely to achieve a desired cultural technological shift especially when it comes to something like wishing an organization to revamp the way it preforms a particular task in this case revamp its approach toward pitching albeit a technical skill.

 

This does ignore the fact that Bush himself was an external candidate. His background is so different from LaVangie that equating them simply because they were both employed in the same organization is flat out silly.

 

The budgetary constraints are totally self imposed. Henry knew what he was getting when he hired DD. DD did exactly what Henry wanted and expected him to do to win a title which he did. DD's termination had absolutely nothing to do with the state of the farm. DD was fired because of personality conflicts within the organization.

 

I never mentioned DDs termination.

 

As to the state of the farm, you may find it as a reason to bemoan DDs tenure but I suspect very few of the two million plus Sox fans who watched that victory parade after the 2018 championship did. It simply was the price that Henry was willing to pay to win. As I said call me when they hold the parade for the franchise with the best farm system.

 

Again with the sarcasm. But I suppose you can avoid direct insults and convince yourself you’re actually polite.

 

The bottom line is this - having a good pipeline of dirt cheap MLB talent coming up makes it easier to retain top talent, acquire new talent, and keep the team competitive. That last one is most important because, as fans, all we can ask is they be interesting enough to be watchable. Titles are nice, but there is also absolutely luck involved. And if you were a Sox fan in 1978, you understand that. Or in 1975. Those teams weren’t significantly worse than the 2018 team. But they didn’t win. The 1978 team had four Hall of Famers on it, which I think is the most of any Sox team ever. They didn’t win. Going all in for a title is a risky adventure, because if it fails - like it did in Detroit - it can be a long time before the team is watchable again.

 

But hey, you can always watch that flag fly. And sigh and remember when...

[S5Dewey]

 

As to the state of the farm, you may find it as a reason to bemoan DDs tenure but I suspect very few of the two million plus Sox fans who watched that victory parade after the 2018 championship did. It simply was the price that Henry was willing to pay to win. As I said call me when they hold the parade for the franchise with the best farm system.

 

While I'll plead guilty to thinking that you're a tad 'off the rails' at times you're spot on with this post. I would much rather have the banner flying forever than know that we had the best AAA team in baseball.

 

Furthermore, even if the Sox finish 3rd or 4th in the next two years I'll never say that I wish we'd held onto some of the players we traded away because those trades are what created the WSC.

 

Now, you can say... and some might.. that we overpaid in terms of prospects for some of those players but at the same time not offering as much as we did might also have kept us from acquiring them. I'll take that banner, thanks, rather than keep our AAA prospects and hope that we can win with them sometime in the future.

[Elktonnick]

You're way off the mark. She has criticized many a move, most notably the replacement of Ben by DD.

 

Actually I called out complaints and gripes as stupid and idiotic, but not people. There is a big difference. And in many eyes - sarcastically mocking someone else’s idea or complaint is the same as calling it stupid. Avoiding using the word doesn’t always mean avoiding the meaning.

 

 

 

This does ignore the fact that Bush himself was an external candidate. His background is so different from LaVangie that equating them simply because they were both employed in the same organization is flat out silly.

 

 

 

I never mentioned DDs termination.

 

 

 

Again with the sarcasm. But I suppose you can avoid direct insults and convince yourself you’re actually polite.

 

The bottom line is this - having a good pipeline of dirt cheap MLB talent coming up makes it easier to retain top talent, acquire new talent, and keep the team competitive. That last one is most important because, as fans, all we can ask is they be interesting enough to be watchable. Titles are nice, but there is also absolutely luck involved. And if you were a Sox fan in 1978, you understand that. Or in 1975. Those teams weren’t significantly worse than the 2018 team. But they didn’t win. The 1978 team had four Hall of Famers on it, which I think is the most of any Sox team ever. They didn’t win. Going all in for a title is a risky adventure, because if it fails - like it did in Detroit - it can be a long time before the team is watchable again.

 

But hey, you can always watch that flag fly. And sigh and remember when...

 

Bush was working for the Red Sox for three yeas. He was therefore the internal candidate not an outsider. As for the rest I think I made my point and I get you do not like sarcasm. Sorry you are so easily offended.

[Elktonnick]

You're way off the mark. She has criticized many a move, most notably the replacement of Ben by DD.

 

While I'll plead guilty to thinking that you're a tad 'off the rails' at times you're spot on with this post. I would much rather have the banner flying forever than know that we had the best AAA team in baseball.

 

Furthermore, even if the Sox finish 3rd or 4th in the next two years I'll never say that I wish we'd held onto some of the players we traded away because those trades are what created the WSC.

 

Now, you can say... and some might.. that we overpaid in terms of prospects for some of those players but at the same time not offering as much as we did might also have kept us from acquiring them. I'll take that banner, thanks, rather than keep our AAA prospects and hope that we can win with them sometime in the future.

I followed this team when Williams was still in Korea. If Betts goes it won't be the end of the world. I will find some one else to root for

[moonslav59]

I followed this team when Williams was still in Korea. If Betts goes it won't be the end of the world. I will find some one else to root for

 

Makes me now hope Betts gets traded.