Sale to IL with elbow injury

[jung]

Generally its on the players...but in fairness, the 2013 team was not as complete a team as the 2018 team. Last years team won 11 more games and had a better run differential than the 13 team. Last years team also scored more runs and had a better ERA than the 2013 team. And essentially the team we put on the field this year was nearly identical to the 2018 juggernaut, except for the closer. I can't blame DD for the players not doing their jobs this year. I do not recall who left the 2013 team after they won; maybe some of the guys who left caused the first to worst.

 

The 2013 team was a perfect blend of mainly vets with something to prove playing for a future paycheck with a few young guys in the right spots. Shave Victorino, Johny Gomes, Napoli, Drew, Ross were all playing to prove they still had a future in MLB, some coming off injury. That was just the everyday players in that spot...never mind the pitchers in the same spot. Once the vets had proven what they wanted to prove individually in 2013 they were done and so was the 2014 team.

[SoxHop]

The Red Sox are fourth in the American League in OPS:

 

https://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=bat&lg=all&qual=0&type=1&season=2019&month=0&season1=2019&ind=0&team=0,ts&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0&startdate=2019-01-01&enddate=2019-12-31&sort=9,d

 

... and fourth in wRC+:

 

https://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=bat&lg=all&qual=0&type=8&season=2019&month=0&season1=2019&ind=0&team=0,ts&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0&startdate=2019-01-01&enddate=2019-12-31&sort=16,d

 

... and seventh in pitching fWAR:

 

https://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=pit&lg=all&qual=0&type=8&season=2019&month=0&season1=2019&ind=0&team=0,ts&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0&startdate=&enddate=

 

... and second in position player fWAR:

 

https://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=bat&lg=all&qual=0&type=8&season=2019&month=0&season1=2019&ind=0&team=0,ts&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0&startdate=&enddate=

 

Wow, seventh in pitching. I would have thought that would have been much lower

[moonslav59]

Wow, seventh in pitching. I would have thought that would have been much lower

 

7th out of 15 is nothing to write home about.

 

It also shows just how bad 8 other teams must be.

[moonslav59]

In fact, just blaming the SP is not 100% accurate.

 

Eovaldi - wit ha significant history of injury - has missed most of 2018. Dombrowski's lucrative extension made replacing him difficult. (So apparently he decided not to try beyond Ryan Weber.)

 

Sale missed time in 2018, and was not the same in the postseason. He was also given a lucrative extension. Now that he is out, don't hold your breath for a replacement.

 

Price has been having off-and-on issues since 2017. If he isn't 100%, why do you expect the same results from when he was?

 

Porcello has been a flop. That's on him.

 

But essentially, Dombrowski took a WSC team and the extent ofhis "improvements" was to replace Craig Kimbrel with Colten Brewer. Meanwhile, Houston and NY and Tampa and, well, everyone else, was trying to get better to catch the Sox. Juggernaut or not, he absolutely gave everyone the chance to close the gap. And some of them took it...

 

Had we signed Morton & Ottavino, instead of Eovaldi and Pearce, we're still in this thing.

 

It's hit or miss, so I don't blame DD for guessing wrong.

 

As it turned out, we needed a SP'er and 1Bman, but who knew Chavis would do better than Pearce and play more than Moreland?

[jung]

Had we signed Morton & Ottavino, instead of Eovaldi and Pearce, we're still in this thing.

 

It's hit or miss, so I don't blame DD for guessing wrong.

 

As it turned out, we needed a SP'er and 1Bman, but who knew Chavis would do better than Pearce and play more than Moreland?

 

Pearce was a huge mistake. Worse than giving Nate $68M/4. We already had Moreland. So there was no new Moreland deal at the start of this year.

 

I really don't like how they handled 1st base at all from a payroll and roster perspective but Pearce was the knife stuck in the gut....fat useless f***...journeyman player has a great WEEK and gets a contract. Wonderful!!! Incidentally Price was the WS MVP not Pearce. But that is water under the bridge.

 

And it does not matter the result with Chavis as much as the organization's willingness to bring him up. So without Pearce and if they crapped out on whomever they brought in to share time with Moreland are we saying they would not simply have brought up Chavis earlier?

Edited August 20, 2019 by jung

[Slasher9]

last years team would crush the 2013 team.

2013 had everything go for them + the russian kids marathon bombing.

[jung]

last years team would crush the 2013 team.

2013 had everything go for them + the russian kids marathon bombing.

 

Correct on talent. 2018 team much much more talented. The only shot the 2013 team would have had beating the 2018 team was grit and guile which is what they won on in many 2013 games anyway.

[Larry33]

Gotta admit, Cherries seems to have done a decent job with the Jays farm. We need a guy like Cherries and a guy like DD to have a head on collision and have the docs put together a Pres of Baseball Ops out of the remaining usable limbs and various body parts. THATS OUR GUY!!!!

 

You couldn't get Ben and DD in the same room let along on the same team they have different views and philosophies regarding a team direction. Ben was offered a job to work with DD he refused and left the Red Sox organization. You have to give credit where credit is due he was good with player development and prospects that where Ben excelled and that's what he doing for the Blue Jays. As GM not so good but then again how much involvement did Larry Lucchino have in his decision making. Ben like investing a devolping a strong farm system and has a more wait till then approach versus DD who has a win now attitude with little regards towards a strong farm system. DD is notorious for for trading top prospects for proven veterans he's an old school GM by trying to buy championships versus building them. He traded one of the best pitchers in MLB for a rental when he was managing the Expos Randy Johnson for Mark Langston that had to be one of the stupidest trade baseball ever seen. The Red Sox are in trouble if they expect to rebuild with this guy his history speaks for itself.

Edited August 20, 2019 by Larry33

[Bellhorn04]

Pearce was a huge mistake. Worse than giving Nate $68M/4. We already had Moreland. So there was no new Moreland deal at the start of this year.

 

I really don't like how they handled 1st base at all from a payroll and roster perspective but Pearce was the knife stuck in the gut....fat useless f***...journeyman player has a great WEEK and gets a contract. Wonderful!!!

 

C'mon, let's be reasonable. Pearce's contract was less than 10% of Nate's. It had a minor impact.

[jung]

You couldn't get Ben and DD in the same room let along on the same team they have different views and philosophies regarding a team direction. Ben was offered a job to work with DD he refused and left the Red Sox organization. You have to give credit where credit is due he was good with player development and prospects that where Ben excelled and that's what he doing for the Blue Jays. As GM not so good but then again how much involvement did Larry Lucchino have in his decision making. Ben like investing a devolping a strong farm system and has a more wait till then approach versus DD who has a win now attitude with little regards towards a strong farm system. DD is notorious for for trading top prospects for proven veterans he's an old school GM by trying to buy championships versus building them. He traded one of the best pitchers in MLB for a rental when he was managing the Expos Randy Johnson for Mark Langston that had to be one of the stupidest trade baseball ever seen. The Red Sox are in trouble if they expect to rebuild with this guy his history speaks for itself.

 

They would not work together....but if you could blend them into one Pres of Baseball ops you would have something. Like I said, it would take a head on collision car wreck to actually get actual body parts form both of those specific guys working as a single Pres of Baseball Ops. But somebody who could deal AND could do it without twitching every time there is a chance to rape the farm system would be a heck of a Pres of Baseball Ops.

 

The Director of Player Personnel builds the farm system. So your Pres of Baseball Ops does not do that job. But to have the Pres of Baseball Ops just frothing out of the corners of his mouth to simply gut the farm is not a particularly attractive situation.

 

There is some discussion in this forum about the quality of the players in our farm system when DD got here. It does not matter. Regardless of whether you are stocked with top picks or middling picks or garbage, anybody not wearing a cast will be gone before DD is done.

[moonslav59]

C'mon, let's be reasonable. Pearce's contract was less than 10% of Nate's. It had a minor impact.

 

I agree, but if you add his $6.25M to what we had under the tax line, we'd be close to what Ottavino got.

[moonslav59]

C'mon, let's be reasonable. Pearce's contract was less than 10% of Nate's. It had a minor impact.

 

Plus, cost per season was about 33% of Eo's.

[SoxHop]

last years team would crush the 2013 team.

2013 had everything go for them + the russian kids marathon bombing.

'

It aint pretty, it aint Skakespear, but reducing what that dipshit did to "russian kid marathon bombing" maybe the most elequant way I've ever heard of it.

[jung]

C'mon, let's be reasonable. Pearce's contract was less than 10% of Nate's. It had a minor impact.

 

$6M is a pile of money to get NOTHING. I am being reasonable. It was a bad deal the day it was signed and it has not aged well.

 

Nate made some sense...but not at $68/4. Pearce made no sense whatsoever. Simply a DD binky deal.

Edited August 20, 2019 by jung

[SoxHop]

$6M is a pile of money to get NOTHING. I am being reasonable. It was a bad deal the day it was signed and it has not aged well.

 

Nate made some sense...but not at $68/4. Pearce made no sense whatsoever. Simply a DD binky deal.

 

6 mil? Your yelling at the clouds. 6 mil is a round off error for a guy that might have helped fill in for broken ass Pedrio.

[jung]

6 mil? Your yelling at the clouds. 6 mil is a round off error for a guy that might have helped fill in for broken ass Pedrio.

 

$6M is two decent relief pitchers or 1 good relief pitcher. Would we have liked one of those? Could Sam Travis filled in the Pearce role leaving that $6M for relief pitching? YUP!

[Bellhorn04]

$6M is two decent relief pitchers or 1 good relief pitcher.

 

Depends what you mean by a good relief pitcher.

[SoxHop]

Depends what you mean by a good relief pitcher.

 

Roll the dice.

 

Showcase showdown on the wheel of fortune.

[SoxHop]

Plus 6 mil gets you a washed up crack addict who's been in jail longer than in MLB. Worth a shot, but not worth much of a shot.

[jung]

I would rather have seen DD spend more time trying to build a pen. However DD has NEVER built a pen and here we are watching the dynamics of MLB pitching change year by year. Plain on the nose on your face. Apparently beyond DD's comprehension.

 

So you can counter that Pearce was not that big a deal. But Pearce is just another indication of how far behind DD has grown. He has aged beyond his usefulness in this job. Got us a WS. Job done. Thanks and see ya' Dave.

[moonslav59]

I would rather have seen DD spend more time trying to build a pen. However DD has NEVER built a pen and here we are watching the dynamics of MLB pitching change year by year. Plain on the nose on your face. Apparently beyond DD's comprehension.

 

So you can counter that Pearce was not that big a deal. But Pearce is just another indication of how far behind DD has grown. He has aged beyond his usefulness in this job. Got us a WS. Job done. Thanks and see ya' Dave.

 

Was he wrong for not knowing Chavis could play well enough to cover for a likely injury to Moreland?

[jung]

Was he wrong for not knowing Chavis could play well enough to cover for a likely injury to Moreland?

 

Chavis is not the issue. What Chavis could or could not do at 1st base turned out to be a convenience since they brought him up for his bat and hardly cared where he played. Travis could easily have filled the Pearce role and THAT should have been the decision. Either that or spend the $6M on a 1st baseman other than Pearce. There was NOTHING to recommend Pearce for that contract....NOTHING!

[Fan_since_Boggs]

Looking ahead, I would like to see the Red Sox sign W.Smith for 2020. They have the resources for him, and then use Chavis as a trade chip for a SP. Dalbec takes over 1b and Hernandez and Chatham battle it out at 2b, freeing up Chavis for a trade.

 

We are looking at an awesome offense for 2020:

 

Betts RF

Devers 3b

Bogaerts SS

Martinez DH

Benintendi LF

Dalbec 1b

Vazquez C

Hernandez/Chatham 2b

Duran CF

 

The difficulty: getting the pitching staff back on track.

Edited August 20, 2019 by Fan_since_Boggs

[Bellhorn04]

Chavis is not the issue. What Chavis could or could not do at 1st base turned out to be a convenience since they brought him up for his bat and hardly cared where he played. Travis could easily have filled the Pearce role and THAT should have been the decision. Either that or spend the $6M on a 1st baseman other than Pearce. There was NOTHING to recommend Pearce for that contract....NOTHING!

 

Well, he did post a .901 OPS for us in 50 regular season games last year. Not too shabby.

[FredLynn]

I agree, but if you add his $6.25M to what we had under the tax line, we'd be close to what Ottavino got.

 

Getting Ottavino wouldn't change a thing. The SPs still sucked.

[Bellhorn04]

I agree, but if you add his $6.25M to what we had under the tax line, we'd be close to what Ottavino got.

 

Let's not forget that Ottavino didn't just get 9 million, he got 9 million times 3 = 27 million.

 

That said, Ottavino looks like a great signing for the Yanks at the moment. Probably the best of the larger contracts given out to relievers this offseason, I guess.

[moonslav59]

Getting Ottavino wouldn't change a thing. The SPs still sucked.

 

I agree. I was not being critical.

 

We needed a SP'er: Eovaldi was the wrong guess. (I liked the signing.)

 

We needed help at 1B, because Moreland always gets hurt and sucks vs LHPs. (I didn't think Chavis was an option. I wasn't high on the Pearce signing, but it did fill a need.)

 

In hindsight, had we signed Morton and Ottavino instead of Eovaldi & Pearce, it would have cost about the same in 2019 and overall.

 

Again, it was a guess. I did not want Morton, so I can't bash DD for not signing him.

 

I did like Ottavino alot, but I also liked Cody Allen, so again, I can't bash DD for these choices, except in hindsight.

 

We'd probably be the WC lead with Morton and Ottavino. We might be 3-4 games closer with just Ottavino instead of Pearce (and a non tendered Thornburg).

[cp176]

Well here you go - Just read what Chris Sale had to say and I will unequivocally say that anyone posting here who thinks for one minute that this man should not have been reupped is a jackass. You have no clue about what we have. Some of you think that you have so much knowledge about baseball in general which personally I kind of question. You can stick your chests out and rant about how much we overpaid for this old decrepit future HOFamer all you want. he will be back.. Oh and just for the record comparing dombrowski (man) to cherington(boy) is asinine.

[moonslav59]

Chavis is not the issue. What Chavis could or could not do at 1st base turned out to be a convenience since they brought him up for his bat and hardly cared where he played. Travis could easily have filled the Pearce role and THAT should have been the decision. Either that or spend the $6M on a 1st baseman other than Pearce. There was NOTHING to recommend Pearce for that contract....NOTHING!

 

"Nothing" is a little harsh. The guy was a damn good hitter for 3-4 years before the signing not just the WS.

 

Moreland sucked against LHPs, and Pearce was a top 20 hitter in MLB vs LHPs over 2-3 years. He had even done quite well vs RHPs from 2017-2018,

 

Come on! Sam Travis! You have to be kidding.

 

Talk about "NOTHING." The guy was going backwards.

 

As it turned out, Moreland got hurt. Had Pearce been healthy, he might have filled the job much better than what anyone, in their right mind, could expect from Travis & Chavis.

Plus, Chavis could have been used more at 2B had Moreland and Pearce not been hurt. We may have improved 2 positions with the one Pearce signing. His injury prevented us from ever finding out.

 

I do not think the signing was based on just the WS. He may have gotten $1-2M more by having a great series, but we'd have still tried to get a back-up 1B last winter.

 

(I'm not saying I think that was a higher priority than the pen. In fact, I think and thought we needed pen help- see my Cody Allen rants, but 1B was a priority. Let's not sugar coat our winter feelings for Travis and Chavis after the fact.)

 

[moonslav59]

Well here you go - Just read what Chris Sale had to say and I will unequivocally say that anyone posting here who thinks for one minute that this man should not have been reupped is a jackass. You have no clue about what we have. Some of you think that you have so much knowledge about baseball in general which personally I kind of question. You can stick your chests out and rant about how much we overpaid for this old decrepit future HOFamer all you want. he will be back.. Oh and just for the record comparing dombrowski (man) to cherington(boy) is asinine.

 

Phew.

 

I guess I'm not a jackass. I loved the signing then. I still think it was the absolute right thing to do.