6/17 @ Seattle

[Sox75]

Should have done something about that as they were divesting themselves of Panda. In fact Panda should never have come here in the first place. But if they wanted to be taken seriously as a team that could go somewhere in the post season then they needed a real 3rd baseman instead of screwing around with Panda and then when that failed trying to hide the need for a real 3rd baseman behind a kid. If they don't actually have any intentions toward a real post season run then fine I guess. But thinking this team is going somewhere post season becomes very difficult when you have virtual kids playing big big junks of 162 game seasons and then expecting that by season end when every game is against a real baseball team that their youth will not become even more evident in the crucible of post season play.

 

The Sox are stuck now. I just don't like seeing kids like Devers treated like this is on them as players because its not. We should be hoping for the day when Devers was good enough to come up as either a 1st baseman or a 3rd baseman, not banging on him because he is not much of a ML 3rd baseman. Its not his fault.

 

This should be Beni's first full ML season and he is not ready yet either. All you have to do is look at his splits to see that.

 

Beni's not ready? I don't get that. He is clearly one of the best hitters on the team, has stolen 12 of 13 bases, is playing a decent left field and is a good replacement for JBJ when he sits. I think virtually any other team in the league would love to have him.

 

Ahhhhhh?????

 

Beni's not ready WHAT?

 

No.... WTF?

Edited June 18, 2018 by Sox75

[SoxHop]

[/size]

 

 

 

Ahhhhhh?????

 

Beni's not ready WHAT?

 

No.... WTF?

 

Totally WTF?

 

Sounds like you had a good weekend Sox75. You got to see some really good ball....

[Sox75]

It's been great!

[Sox75]

Btw.....

 

Jung does realize that Beni has been the Sox best offensive player over the last 30 games? Right?

 

27 100 22 35 6 2 9 23 15 17 5 1 .350 .432 .720 1.152

 

OOOPS! ONLY 9 HR's, & 23 rbi's in the last 27 games he's played in?

 

My bad!

 

LMFAO :0

[Sox75]

1.152 OPS.....

 

 

ARE those now "old school stats?"

[Sox75]

Wait wait wait ..,.

 

I'm sorry! I thought Beni only had 23 rbi's in his last 27 games?

 

Turns out it's only 23 rbi's.

 

WTF?

[SoxHop]

It's been great!

 

You eat grasshoppers, or wimp out?

[SPLENDIDSPLINTER]

At this point in the season the SOX have played the other 3 top teams in the AL a total of 14 games. They're record is 7-7. The SOX will play both the Astros and the Mariners 3 more times each at Fenway. The SOX will end the season with a 3 game home stand with the Yankems.

[SoxHop]

At this point in the season the SOX have played the other 3 top teams in the AL a total of 14 games. They're record is 7-7. The SOX will play both the Astros and the Mariners 3 more times each at Fenway. The SOX will end the season with a 3 game home stand with the Yankems.

 

Everyone of those series has been an back alley brawl. Good stuff.

[SPLENDIDSPLINTER]

Everyone of those series has been an back alley brawl. Good stuff.

 

It should be interesting what these 4 teams do before the July 31st trade deadline.

[Bellhorn04]

Fat Panda should be ashamed to be playing in SF while getting paid by Boston. I understand contracts very well but baseball needs an out clause for no-guaranteed money, like the NFL. Maybe pay off the season the guy is DFA'ed but no more. Will never happen as the Players Union would go batshit. But allowing a guy to become a minimum salary FA with multi-years left is a competitve imbalance and Manfred needs to wake up tomorrow and change it.

 

Eh, as Red Sox fans we're whiners if we complain that much about the Pablo thing. We made a bad move and it burned us. We do enjoy a competitive imbalance with the size of our payroll.

[Bellhorn04]

Should have done something about that as they were divesting themselves of Panda. In fact Panda should never have come here in the first place. But if they wanted to be taken seriously as a team that could go somewhere in the post season then they needed a real 3rd baseman instead of screwing around with Panda and then when that failed trying to hide the need for a real 3rd baseman behind a kid. If they don't actually have any intentions toward a real post season run then fine I guess. But thinking this team is going somewhere post season becomes very difficult when you have virtual kids playing big big junks of 162 game seasons and then expecting that by season end when every game is against a real baseball team that their youth will not become even more evident in the crucible of post season play.

 

The Sox are stuck now. I just don't like seeing kids like Devers treated like this is on them as players because its not. We should be hoping for the day when Devers was good enough to come up as either a 1st baseman or a 3rd baseman, not banging on him because he is not much of a ML 3rd baseman. Its not his fault.

 

This should be Beni's first full ML season and he is not ready yet either. All you have to do is look at his splits to see that.

 

Sorry, jung, but I have to pile on here. Beni's not ready? You've kind of lost your marbles with that statement.

[OH FOY]

We miss Paxson next weekend, but we face LaBlanc again. Never in my wildest imagination, would I worry about a journeyman like this guy. There is serious problem against LHP when you get 2 hit by this guy. Next weekend we face 2 LHP's, both are about the same kind of Pitcher. Lest hope this not a recurring trend. Edited June 18, 2018 by OH FOY!

[Bellhorn04]

We miss Paxson next weekend, but we face LaBlanc again. Never in my wildest imagination, would I worry about a journeyman like this guy. There is serious problem against LHP when you get 2 hit by this guy.

 

It is a little baffling that we struggle so much against lefties when we have 2 of the best right-handed hitters in baseball.

[OH FOY]

It is a little baffling that we struggle so much against lefties when we have 2 of the best right-handed hitters in baseball.

 

Its the Left handed Bats that are the problem I think. Too loaded on that side.

Just quick Benni is hitting. .197 against LHP this year. JBJ .120 Devers .203

Edited June 18, 2018 by OH FOY!

[Kimmi]

We miss Paxson next weekend, but we face LaBlanc again. Never in my wildest imagination, would I worry about a journeyman like this guy. There is serious problem against LHP when you get 2 hit by this guy. Next weekend we face 2 LHP's, both are about the same kind of Pitcher. Lest hope this not a recurring trend.

 

We will have LeBlanc's number next time.

[Maxbialystock]

Well, the dogs of the lineup showed up today . Devers, Moreland, and Bradley contributed to the win. The split was sort of the minimum success level but with a Rays win over the Yanks, we'll take the 2-2 outcome. The reality is that with just a few small differences, this would have been a sweep in Seattle. All the games were winnable/

 

True. Good win yesterday, 2-2 series at their park immediately after flying 3000 miles, Baltimore to Seattle, with no travel day. And, yes indeed all four games were winnable because we lost the middle two by 1 run each and had a 6-3 lead in game 2 against the Seattle ace.

 

But the tenor of this game thread is borderline despondent. Why couldn't the Sox hit that guy in game 3 even though, if you watched, he pitched a great game? Indeed, why is the hitting so bad, especially against lefties, and what is DD going to do about it? No comment on the simple fact that our two lefties, Price and ERod, won games 1 and 4 and both had quality starts.

 

Me, I expected 2-2, definitely hoped to win 3 of 4 after game 1, and was OK with the middle game losses precisely because they were winnable. I say that because at least one talksoxer said he saw a big difference in the talent of the two teams--to the advantage of Seattle.

 

I am not saying this lineup can't be tweaked, but for me it's hard not to like this team, especially now that it's mostly healthy again and has what I think is the best or 2d best rotation in MLB. The Astros have more aces, but we have five good ones unless Porcello is about to regress to 2017 form.

[Sox75]

We all know the splits! Perfect example of missing the forest stats because your reading of 1 tree stat. You're nose is up agains the tree.

[Bellhorn04]

True. Good win yesterday, 2-2 series at their park immediately after flying 3000 miles, Baltimore to Seattle, with no travel day. And, yes indeed all four games were winnable because we lost the middle two by 1 run each and had a 6-3 lead in game 2 against the Seattle ace.

 

One of the wins was also by 1 run.

[OH FOY]

I like to think of splits as trends. Its not the numbers, it more about consistency, in situations.

Like Castillo hitting .334 against LHP for 4 years in the Minors. That's more of trend to me. He hits Lefties better.

Edited June 18, 2018 by OH FOY!

[vegasbob]

It's always a great day when the Yankees have the potential to lose 2 games ! Go ahead Nationals and crush the nuts on their sundae.

[jung]

Beni's not ready? I don't get that. He is clearly one of the best hitters on the team, has stolen 12 of 13 bases, is playing a decent left field and is a good replacement for JBJ when he sits. I think virtually any other team in the league would love to have him.

 

Beni is not ready to be #2 in the order day in and day out for a team that continues to try to peddle the idea that the 2018 edition is a legit post season contender. Beni is ready for the 2 hole every day if this was Minnesota. If this was Tampa or Toronto or any of a number of crap franchises going nowhere. But Cora is stuck being held by the nose and kicked in the ass because he has no choice but to continue to bat Beni and Rafi higher up in the everyday order than they should be for a team that already has a bunch of puss-heads batting 7-9 in the order. Cora can't do a darned thing about it regardless of whether we are facing a LH or a RH starter. Come crunch time, when every team we play every game will be a legit ML baseball team that weakness will bite us big time. Teams will be lining up their LH pitchers to face us and it won't take much of a LH pitcher to shut us down when two of the top 6 guys in the order are as bad against LH pitching as Beni and Rafi and 7-9 is as bad as they are regardless of who is on the mound.

 

We are expecting what....that Mookie and JD and XB are going to be God every game? Good luck with that one. Moreland can't handle the load we are handing him while I am at it.

 

What bothers me is that in Benis and Rafi's cases its youth and nothing more than youth. The Red Sox FO created this mess and guys like Rafi and Beni when he becomes a a big wiff machine in the post season who are not even getting paid that much end up taking the abuse for it. Anybody who tells me we will not be seeing complaints about "Beni the fraud" when he gets exposed in the post season is lying. What is happening to Devers is just a preview of coming attractions for both of them.

[moonslav59]

Beni is not ready to be #2 in the order day in and day out for a team that continues to try to peddle the idea that the 2018 edition is a legit post season contender. Beni is ready for the 2 hole every day if this was Minnesota. If this was Tampa or Toronto or any of a number of crap franchises going nowhere. But Cora is stuck being held by the nose and kicked in the ass because he has no choice but to continue to bat Beni and Rafi higher up in the everyday order than they should be for a team that already has a bunch of puss-heads batting 7-9 in the order. Cora can't do a darned thing about it regardless of whether we are facing a LH or a RH starter. Come crunch time, when every team we play every game will be a legit ML baseball team that weakness will bite us big time. Teams will be lining up their LH pitchers to face us and it won't take much of a LH pitcher to shut us down when two of the top 6 guys in the order are as bad against LH pitching as Beni and Rafi and 7-9 is as bad as they are regardless of who is on the mound.

 

We are expecting what....that Mookie and JD and XB are going to be God every game? Good luck with that one. Moreland can't handle the load we are handing him while I am at it.

 

What bothers me is that in Benis and Rafi's cases its youth and nothing more than youth. The Red Sox FO created this mess and guys like Rafi and Beni when he becomes a a big wiff machine in the post season who are not even getting paid that much end up taking the abuse for it. Anybody who tells me we will not be seeing complaints about "Beni the fraud" when he gets exposed in the post season is lying. What is happening to Devers is just a preview of coming attractions for both of them.

 

Beni will go through some tough stretches- probably more than older players, but he and Devers are still ML ready on offense. Beni is fine on defense.

 

I'd rather have someone else up 2nd vs LHPs (Bogey), but Beni is fine vs RHPs and will probably always will be.

 

Just because it might have helped both to have a little more time in the minors does not mean they both can't be a big plus to us as they learn and grow on the job.

 

Both have been so far.

 

162 game averages:

 

Beni .281 22 96 (.361/.463/.824)

 

Devers .259 27 82 (.310/.447/.757)

 

UZR/150 2017 to 2018

 

Beni (LF) -0.3 > +2.0

 

Beni (CF) +1.2> -6.0 (179 innings)

 

Devers (3B) -11.7 > -3.2

 

They are both doing fine. I do not think the early call up is messing up their psyches or growth curve. The bumps along the way do affect the big club, but when you look at other options we have, both are way better than anything else we have.

 

They are not being damaged by playing on the big stage. Both can handle it.

 

[jung]

Beni against LH pitchers:

.197/.295/.685

 

No sense in posting Rafis as his are even worse. Those are stats for a guy that Cora simply hasn't the means or the team to move out of the 2 hole no matter who is pitching and they expect me to believe that is the MO of a championship caliber team! It is just a fantasy to think the few real ML teams there are won't take that along with the other piss poor splits our LH hitters have against LH pitchers and just ram it right down our throats at the point in time when we are only playing actual ML teams of which there are only 5 in the AL.

 

I would not be so certain about whether or not they are damaged by it either. It certainly does us little good to be instructing players at a league level where the need to instruct was never called for and therefor are skills that don't really exist. Rafi does not field good enough yet to be out of the instruction league. We will never know what Swihart could have been because we have already f***ed him over five ways from Sunday. Probably the best thing that ever happened to Travis Shaw was getting away from the Boston Franchise.

 

Here we have become a franchise that throws its young players in the deep end of the pool ignoring entirely that some of them will just drown and we don't even do it to win championships. We do it because they are cute and they fit into some PR drivel they want to sell. They hopefully have stopped bringing in FA's for some PR drivel they want to sell. Getting roasted alive on Panda/Hanley was hopefully enough of a lesson for them.

[moonslav59]

Beni against LH pitchers:

.197/.295/.685

 

No sense in posting Rafis as his are even worse. Those are stats for a guy that Cora simply hasn't the means or the team to move out of the 2 hole no matter who is pitching and they expect me to believe that is the MO of a championship caliber team! It is just a fantasy to think the few real ML teams there are won't take that along with the other piss poor splits our LH hitters have against LH pitchers and just ram it right down our throats at the point in time when we are only playing actual ML teams of which there are only 5 in the AL.

 

I would not be so certain about whether or not they are damaged by it either. It certainly does us little good to be instructing players at a league level where the need to instruct was never called for and therefor are skills that don't really exist. Rafi does not field good enough yet to be out of the instruction league. We will never know what Swihart could have been because we have already f***ed him over five ways from Sunday. Probably the best thing that ever happened to Travis Shaw was getting away from the Boston Franchise.

 

Here we have become a franchise that throws its young players in the deep end of the pool ignoring entirely that some of them will just drown and we don't even do it to win championships. We do it because they are cute and they fit into some PR drivel they want to sell. They hopefully have stopped bringing in FA's for some PR drivel they want to sell. Getting roasted alive on Panda/Hanley was hopefully enough of a lesson for them.

 

I don't think we're the only highly competitive team that has players up high in the order with terrible splits, but I do agree we'd be better off with Bogey up 2nd vs lefties. I've been saying that for months and years.

 

Our management made some huge mistakes. It is what it is. We're up against a stiff tax and penalty, if we spend much more.

 

We have a solid core of young players, and some are still learning on the job. While it's not ideal, it's not horrible either. Both Devers and Beni have more than decent numbers, so far.

 

We're not the only team with a couple of 21-23 year olds in big slots.

[Bellhorn04]

Beni against LH pitchers:

.197/.295/.685

 

Beni in games started by LH pitchers:

.231/.273/.538 .811 OPS

 

Even if the starter is a lefty, the starter usually only goes 5-6 innings.

 

You don't really have the option of platooning/pinch-hitting at will, so you have to start Beni against lefties. He will get some PA's in those games against RH relievers and overall, his numbers will be acceptable in those games.

 

He has a 3.0 fWAR less than halfway through the season. He's not someone to be concerned about.

[Maxbialystock]

Beni is not ready to be #2 in the order day in and day out for a team that continues to try to peddle the idea that the 2018 edition is a legit post season contender. Beni is ready for the 2 hole every day if this was Minnesota. If this was Tampa or Toronto or any of a number of crap franchises going nowhere. But Cora is stuck being held by the nose and kicked in the ass because he has no choice but to continue to bat Beni and Rafi higher up in the everyday order than they should be for a team that already has a bunch of puss-heads batting 7-9 in the order. Cora can't do a darned thing about it regardless of whether we are facing a LH or a RH starter. Come crunch time, when every team we play every game will be a legit ML baseball team that weakness will bite us big time. Teams will be lining up their LH pitchers to face us and it won't take much of a LH pitcher to shut us down when two of the top 6 guys in the order are as bad against LH pitching as Beni and Rafi and 7-9 is as bad as they are regardless of who is on the mound.

 

We are expecting what....that Mookie and JD and XB are going to be God every game? Good luck with that one. Moreland can't handle the load we are handing him while I am at it.

 

What bothers me is that in Benis and Rafi's cases its youth and nothing more than youth. The Red Sox FO created this mess and guys like Rafi and Beni when he becomes a a big wiff machine in the post season who are not even getting paid that much end up taking the abuse for it. Anybody who tells me we will not be seeing complaints about "Beni the fraud" when he gets exposed in the post season is lying. What is happening to Devers is just a preview of coming attractions for both of them.

 

Meh. The "abuse" point is especially laughable because those two, Benintendi and Devers, are thrilled to be up in the Bigs and playing every day. A dream come true. No doubt in my mind Beni loves batting 2d because it shows confidence in him even though, just as you say, he is quite young.

 

I don't disagree with moonslav and you that this isn't the ideal situation, but by definition ideal is rare. Meanwhile, I focus on three pretty good things--

 

1. The team is winning games--more than any other team in MLB--and playing well against the best teams (NYY, Mariners, Astros).

 

2. The lineup, woebegone as many on talksox now think, is still 2d or 3d best in MLB and a big improvement over last year.

 

3. The rotation right now is awfully good. Porcello is the worst of the five, and that's saying a whole lot.

Edited June 18, 2018 by Maxbialystock

[jung]

Beni in games started by LH pitchers:

.231/.273/.538 .811 OPS

 

Even if the starter is a lefty, the starter usually only goes 5-6 innings.

 

You don't really have the option of platooning/pinch-hitting at will, so you have to start Beni against lefties. He will get some PA's in those games against RH relievers and overall, his numbers will be acceptable in those games.

 

He has a 3.0 fWAR less than halfway through the season. He's not someone to be concerned about.

 

You just made my point for me. Cora is boxed. There is really nothing he can do about the circumstance he has been handed. You are correct. Cora can't just move players around willynilly during the course of a game. However I see no rational for taking your point as a positive factor for us. The performance of our LH hitting corp vs LH pitchers including that of Beni and Rafi is piss poor and the hitting performance of our switch hitters against LH pitchers is piss poor and there is literally nothing we can do about it. Holt is the only exception and he is never going to get enough playing time to make that mean anything. I happen to think that none of this is either Beni's or Rafi's fault because they are just young. It won't prevent people from throwing them under the bus. Apparently we think Mookies and Harpers and Trouts just grow on trees and they don't.

 

It is a very very small percentage of players of which neither Beni nor Rafi are members that can just come up, play significant roles in 162 game seasons and then not be held accountable by the real baseball teams with real scouting abilities that they will face every day in the post season. There is simply not enough team here. My point is that we will not at the end of the day hold the Morelands or the Nunez's or the Swiharts or Leon's accountable at the end of the season. We will hold guys like Rafi and Beni accountable because they have been given these significant roles, batting high in the order for long stretches of the season while Sox PR heralds them as the second coming. We will not realize that it is just those significant roles and the data set produced by it that the real baseball teams we will face at the end of the season will feast upon.

 

The only hope we really have to legitimize an actual post season run would be for DD to pull a rabbit out of a hat and I don't see that one happening either. This team just dumped Hanley for the most part because they don't want to vest him for next year. Fine as far as it goes as long as we realize that Sox brass is making a judgement very similar to the one I am making. I don't think anybody wants to make the case that Pedey should he return at all changes to any great degree the outlook for this team. A third of a season of a Machado might be the only thing we can do and that would seem more a hail mary pass hope more than something at all likely. But I wll take it or anything like it because there is just not enough team here.

 

God help us if JD goes down because then nothing will help us which is why I do not want to see JD in a Fenway OF under any circumstances. His bat goes out of this lineup and this team is done as any sort of post season contender.

[Spudboy]

At this point in the season the SOX have played the other 3 top teams in the AL a total of 14 games. They're record is 7-7. The SOX will play both the Astros and the Mariners 3 more times each at Fenway. The SOX will end the season with a 3 game home stand with the Yankems.

 

Yup. For all those that say the Sox have not played many good teams .500 against the "Iron" of the league is okay with me.

 

I don't see a single team being significantly better than the Sox at the moment.

[SPLENDIDSPLINTER]

I don't think we're the only highly competitive team that has players up high in the order with terrible splits, but I do agree we'd be better off with Bogey up 2nd vs lefties. I've been saying that for months and years.

 

Our management made some huge mistakes. It is what it is. We're up against a stiff tax and penalty, if we spend much more.

 

We have a solid core of young players, and some are still learning on the job. While it's not ideal, it's not horrible either. Both Devers and Beni have more than decent numbers, so far.

 

We're not the only team with a couple of 21-23 year olds in big slots.

 

The Nats have a 19 year old phenom named Soto, who just hit a 2 run blast against the Yankems to take the lead going into the 7th in a continued game from MAY. The SOX could pick up a full game against the Yankems while not playing tonight.