Astros, 10/8, game 3, ALDS

[moonslav59]

Dewey had to jump at the end. I think his was a little tougher. Plus I think he had to go further to make his catch.

 

I'm not sure about the going farther, but yes, the jump made his look harder.

 

Plus, bad throw and all, he got the DP.

[moonslav59]

I have felt all along that Price ( like Sale and possibly the guy in LA, what's his name ) were just spent by the time the playoffs rolled around.

 

Otherwise one would have to believe in chokers and clutch. Am I right?

 

Price appears healthy and rested.

 

The f***ing guy is still one of the truly elite starters in the game.

 

Those that think otherwise of him are kidding themselves.

 

Like a700 says if he is sitting at 95+ and commands his fastball he is f***ing lights out.

 

I hope we do a better job having our starters rested by playoff time next year.

 

Can Price be stretched out to the point he can start a game by the WS?

 

He went 4 today. He could go 4-5 next outing and maybe 5-6 the next, assuming enough rest between games.

[Maxbialystock]

Were those key 4 innings by Price enough to get those who had no faith in his playoff abilities based on his scattered past sample size to at least begin to reconsider their beliefs a teeny tiny bit?

 

I know it's only 4 innings (a small sample size in and of itself), but that was Pedroeque!

 

 

Actually, if you will check, there were plenty here who didn't want him to go 4 because of his pitch count. You know, the old "Farrell is clueless routine," forgetting, of course, that it was Farrell who convinced Price he could contribute a lot from the bullpen.

[Maxbialystock]

Is Reed that good, or have the Astros given up on this game?

 

 

What good? Two days ago Reed gave up 2 earned runs to this same team. Overall, he has been very good and should be our 8th inning guy, but they did get to him last time.

[Kimmi]

Actually, if you will check, there were plenty here who didn't want him to go 4 because of his pitch count. You know, the old "Farrell is clueless routine," forgetting, of course, that it was Farrell who convinced Price he could contribute a lot from the bullpen.

 

Farrell said that if the game had remained close, Price was coming back out for another inning.

[Maxbialystock]

I hope we do a better job having our starters rested by playoff time next year.

 

Can Price be stretched out to the point he can start a game by the WS?

 

He went 4 today. He could go 4-5 next outing and maybe 5-6 the next, assuming enough rest between games.

 

Starters, plural? You maen Pom, Porcello, Fister, and ERod all bombed because they were exhausted? Are you saying Farrell should have used the bullpen even more than he has? As for Sale, he pitched a short September, had nine days rest before his last start, and gave up 2 dingers in the first inning. Hard for me to see those two early home runs the sign of anything other than he couldn't hit his spots. Heck, right now that's the big difference between Price and Sale--Price is hitting his spots and keeping the ball low and not serving up meatballs. Right now, Sale still has a faster fastball than Price and a pretty good changeup, but his slider over time has become more hittable.

[moonslav59]

Farrell said that if the game had remained close, Price was coming back out for another inning.

 

Then, one would think he can start in 5 days, right?

[moonslav59]

Starters, plural? You maen Pom, Porcello, Fister, and ERod all bombed because they were exhausted? Are you saying Farrell should have used the bullpen even more than he has? As for Sale, he pitched a short September, had nine days rest before his last start, and gave up 2 dingers in the first inning. Hard for me to see those two early home runs the sign of anything other than he couldn't hit his spots. Heck, right now that's the big difference between Price and Sale--Price is hitting his spots and keeping the ball low and not serving up meatballs. Right now, Sale still has a faster fastball than Price and a pretty good changeup, but his slider over time has become more hittable.

 

No. I was thinking Sale and Price's late season drop-offs are probably related to endurance issues, and maybe we should limit their pitches more next year.

 

I'm not sure about Pom. I think this might have been his most pitches thrown in a season, but he didn't seem to weaken as the season neared it's end- just this most recent start, really.

 

ERod missed some time this year.

 

Porcello looked weak all year.

[Northern Star]

Price erased a lot of the bad will today. He still needs to repeat this, preferably as starter, but today was absolutely huge step in the right direction.

[Spudboy]

Starters, plural? You maen Pom, Porcello, Fister, and ERod all bombed because they were exhausted? Are you saying Farrell should have used the bullpen even more than he has? As for Sale, he pitched a short September, had nine days rest before his last start, and gave up 2 dingers in the first inning. Hard for me to see those two early home runs the sign of anything other than he couldn't hit his spots. Heck, right now that's the big difference between Price and Sale--Price is hitting his spots and keeping the ball low and not serving up meatballs. Right now, Sale still has a faster fastball than Price and a pretty good changeup, but his slider over time has become more hittable.

 

So I now must assume that the former starting pitchers that provide color are completely wrong in pointing out that Sale's arm was lower and his pitches flatter with less bite because of fatigue.

 

Thanks for clearing this vital issue up for me big guy.

[Maxbialystock]

No. I was thinking Sale and Price's late season drop-offs are probably related to endurance issues, and maybe we should limit their pitches more next year.

 

I'm not sure about Pom. I think this might have been his most pitches thrown in a season, but he didn't seem to weaken as the season neared it's end- just this most recent start, really.

 

ERod missed some time this year.

 

Porcello looked weak all year.

 

You've said that before about Sale and are now saying that might explain Price last year. To be honest, even though I have disagreed vehemently, that is a possibility. But I also think that Sale has relied on the fast ball too long and too much because it is in fact pretty darn good. The problem is almost any fastball is hittable if the batter can be sure one is coming. In my opinion he has never had a sharp breaking ball, one that was hard to hit solidly.

 

This year Sale had a great July (ERA under 2) with 5 starts and a so-so August (ERA over 4) with 6 starts. Maybe a shorter August would have helped. His shortest month was September.\

 

In Farrell's defense, I will also say that in both years the Sox won the AL East but not by that much and August and September were both nail biters. Indeed, there is still a lingering feeling by some on talksox that last year Farrell rested his guys too much in September and didn't try hard enough to keep the home field advantage against the Guardians. This year we didn't clinch until the penultimate game.

Edited October 9, 2017 by Maxbialystock

[Maxbialystock]

Overall, a pretty incredible game. Another starter bombs--thus now Sale, Pom, and Fister have all laid pretty big eggs--but Price absolutely pitched his ass off against a very good lineup, probably the best in MLB. On top of that, the Sox actually took the lead in the 3d dadgum inning and held it, 4-3, until the deluge of the 7th that put the game away. I missed most of that glorious 7th because of family dinner engagement--folks coming in from out of town--but I did see Price get that final out on a high fastball swing and miss.

 

Two errors and one dinger by the Astros and zero errors and 2 dingers by the home team--plus an awfully good RF by Mookie Betts who is already renowned for his fielding.

 

HanRam was incredbily pumped up even before the game started. His stroke reminded me of an earlier Ramirez.

 

Price threw 57 pitches in 4 innings, so he might or might not be good for Oct 11 if we get there.

 

A couple days ago I said that AL East champs or not, DD might still dump Farrell if the Sox get wiped out in 3 games. I now don't think so.

 

Goodness knows Porcello ain't tired. The question with him, as always, is where the heck will he throw the ball. If he keeps it up as he has for most of the season, he will be gone early. I think, contrary to what seems the consensus on talksox, Farrell will not try to save the day by bringing in ERod unless he does as he did before, keeps him on a very short string.

[Maxbialystock]

So I now must assume that the former starting pitchers that provide color are completely wrong in pointing out that Sale's arm was lower and his pitches flatter with less bite because of fatigue.

 

Thanks for clearing this vital issue up for me big guy.

 

I don't listen to the audio, but would point out that these guys today did not cover Sale's last start and probably none before that, so I wonder how they came to these conclusions. If Eck said it, it's probably true. Did he?

 

Also, Sale threw 506 pitches in September, the fewest he threw in the six months he pitched this year. He threw 574 in July when he pitched great and 611 in August when not so great. He had 9 days rest between his last start and his ALDS start.

 

And let's not forget that August and September, the very months when one presumes Sale should have pitched less, the Sox were in a dogfight to win the AL East and did not win it until the the penultimate game on August 30. Had Farrell shortened Sale's innings when he was pitching well during those two months and the bullpen then pissed away a lead or two, talksox would have erupted as they did last year that Farrell wasn't trying to win games and why is he pulling his best starter?

 

The one game, September 20, when Sale was probably left in too long is moonslav's key data point. Sale threw a bodacious 111 pitches in an easy win when he could probably have been taken out after 90 pitches. However, Sale threw over 3300 pitches this year, so I find it hard to blame Thursday's game on those extra 21 pitches on September 20.

[a700hitter]

Actually, if you will check, there were plenty here who didn't want him to go 4 because of his pitch count. You know, the old "Farrell is clueless routine," forgetting, of course, that it was Farrell who convinced Price he could contribute a lot from the bullpen.

Who?

[S5Dewey]

Who?

 

I saw no posts from anyone advocating taking Price out.

 

I made the suggestion (order? LOL) for Farrell to have someone up in the bullpen during that 4th inning in case it was needed. Remember, we were nursing a one run lead at that time.

 

Maybe there was a misunderstanding of what my intent was.

[a700hitter]

I saw no posts from anyone advocating taking Price out.

 

I made the suggestion (order? LOL) for Farrell to have someone up in the bullpen during that 4th inning in case it was needed. Remember, we were nursing a one run lead at that time.

 

Maybe there was a misunderstanding of what my intent was.

I did see one post hoping that he could pitch the rest of the game, but none that wanted him taken out before he left the game. It is bad enough that Max is an abrasive, obnoxious, confrontational prick, but he misstates the intentions of other posters so often and so blatantly that I am starting to think it is deliberate and not just a result of his lack of reading comprehension.

[SoxHop]

I saw no posts from anyone advocating taking Price out.

 

I made the suggestion (order? LOL) for Farrell to have someone up in the bullpen during that 4th inning in case it was needed. Remember, we were nursing a one run lead at that time.

 

Maybe there was a misunderstanding of what my intent was.

 

Yea, maybe there was a misunderstanding....... or maybe someone read your post and had another wacked out delusion where they felt the need to put on their Red Sox super hero costume and defend the coaching staff from the undefendable..... all with a small dose of Don Quixote syndrome.......

[moonslav59]

Sale has a long history of fading in September. he has had very little work in October. He pitched over 226 innings last year and led the league in IP this year.

 

I have said that MAYBE he has issues with season-long endurance. I'm not sure endurance is the reason, but it could be.

 

Price had had issues in the playoffs, so I mentioned maybe he has the same issues....MAYBE. I'm not one to make rash judgments based on a two game sample size, but Price has looked awesome this post season- one where he has not started 33 games and pitched over 200 innings. It could just be coincidence, since Price's monthly ERA has shown he looks better and better as the year goes on, then he falls off a cliff in October. I realize one could argue the opposite of what I am saying and make a lot of sense.

 

I don't claim to know the causes. There might not even be any "cause" other than just bad luck late in the season.

 

I do think that, in general, the more you can rest your big gun starters, the better chance they will be stronger at the end of the season.

I do not think my position is radical.

 

[SoxHop]

Sale has a long history of fading in September. he has had very little work in October. He pitched over 226 innings last year and led the league in IP this year.

 

I have said that MAYBE he has issues with season-long endurance. I'm not sure endurance is the reason, but it could be.

 

Price had had issues in the playoffs, so I mentioned maybe he has the same issues....MAYBE. I'm not one to make rash judgments based on a two game sample size, but Price has looked awesome this post season- one where he has not started 33 games and pitched over 200 innings. It could just be coincidence, since Price's monthly ERA has shown he looks better and better as the year goes on, then he falls off a cliff in October. I realize one could argue the opposite of what I am saying and make a lot of sense.

 

I don't claim to know the causes. There might not even be any "cause" other than just bad luck late in the season.

 

I do think that, in general, the more you can rest your big gun starters, the better chance they will be stronger at the end of the season.

I do not think my position is radical.

 

 

You know. This is an intersting study. If Sale starts fading at the beginning of Sept, that's about 6 starts too early in the regular season and forget the playoffs.

 

How the heck can you save a starter a month for the end of the season...............? Heck........ I have no idea.

[a700hitter]

You know. This is an intersting study. If Sale starts fading at the beginning of Sept, that's about 6 starts too early in the regular season and forget the playoffs.

 

How the heck can you save a starter a month for the end of the season...............? Heck........ I have no idea.

Especially since we didn't lock up the Division title until the 161st game.

[moonslav59]

You know. This is an intersting study. If Sale starts fading at the beginning of Sept, that's about 6 starts too early in the regular season and forget the playoffs.

 

Certainly, nothing is "for sure". It's easy to postulate that resting Sale more from day one on might help him do better in September and beyond, but we could try it and he could do even worse late in the year.

 

We could also not win the division by trying to limit his pitches over the full season. I get that.

 

Can anyone think of another idea to try and reverse this data?

 

Month ERA OPS against

May 2.57/ .538

June 2.66/ .594

July 2.66/ .628

Aug 3.22/ .645

Sept 3.78/ .750

 

We're talking sample sizes all above 780 PAs and 199 IP.

 

I'm not sure what can be done, of if anything can be done at all. I'm just thinking we could try to limit his pitches as much as possible while trying not to lessen our chances to win by too, too much. That might not be possible.

 

Edited October 9, 2017 by moonslav59

[moonslav59]

How the heck can you save a starter a month for the end of the season...............?

 

If you gave him an extra day off more times a year than he normally gets, he'd have one less start that year. That might not be enough.

 

If you could do that plus maybe take him out an inning earlier 7 or 8 more times a year, that might, in a sense, be the same as having one less start over a full season.

 

Would both of these things be enough to make a difference in October? Certainly, the answer could be "no".

 

Certainly, it could cost us the division or playoff berth.

 

Is it worth even considering? is it worth trying next year?

 

I will say that late season 8 inning start was not needed. I'm not sure how many other starts could have been shortened, and how that might have taxed the pen and messed up their effectiveness.

 

It's not an easy decision to make. Sox brass might not even think it's worth considering, let alone trying next year. I get that.

[SoxHop]

Certainly, nothing is "for sure". It's easy to postulate that resting Sale more from day one on might help him do better in September and beyond, but we could try it and he could do even worse late in the year.

 

We could also not win the division by trying to limit his pitches over the full season. I get that.

 

Can anyone think of another idea to try and reverse this data?

 

Month ERA OPS against

May 2.57/ .538

June 2.66/ .594

July 2.66/ .628

Aug 3.22/ .645

Sept 3.78/ .750

 

We're talking sample sizes all above 780 PAs and 199 IP.

 

I'm not sure what can be done, of if anything can be done at all. I'm just thinking we could try to limit his pitches as much as possible while trying not to lessen our chances to win by too, too much. That might not be possible.

 

 

I really don't know. But the infamous Sept 20th can't be repeated. If it's a blowout in either direction at any time of the year, I'm going to pull him. But I really don't think he was in the middle of any blowout games other than Sept 20th that I can remember.

 

Maybe a pitch count of 100....?

 

A reporter recently asked Farrell about this and his reply was pretty funny.

 

I think Sale just can't go the distance............ It might be due to his delivery. He looks like he is throwing all arm, which I don't think you are ever going to change.

[moonslav59]

I really don't know. But the infamous Sept 20th can't be repeated. If it's a blowout in either direction at any time of the year, I'm going to pull him. But I really don't think he was in the middle of any blowout games other than Sept 20th that I can remember.

 

Maybe a pitch count of 100....?

 

A reporter recently asked Farrell about this and his reply was pretty funny.

 

I think Sale just can't go the distance............ It might be due to his delivery. He looks like he is throwing all arm, which I don't think you are ever going to change.

 

Interesting quote.

 

I'm not going to go back and look at the play charts of every game, but you are right, Sale was not involved in many blow-outs.

 

May 7th 17-6 win. Sale only went 6 IP.

May 24th 9-4 win. Sale went 7.1

June 19th 11-3 win. Sale went 7.0.

July 1st 7-1 win. Sale went 7.0.

Sep 9th 9-0 win. Sale went 6.0

Sep 15th 13-6. Sale went 5.2

Sep 20th 9-0. Sale went 8.0

 

 

[SoxHop]

Interesting quote.

 

I'm not going to go back and look at the play charts of every game, but you are right, Sale was not involved in many blow-outs.

 

May 7th 17-6 win. Sale only went 6 IP.

May 24th 9-4 win. Sale went 7.1

June 19th 11-3 win. Sale went 7.0.

July 1st 7-1 win. Sale went 7.0.

Sep 9th 9-0 win. Sale went 6.0

Sep 15th 13-6. Sale went 5.2

Sep 20th 9-0. Sale went 8.0

 

 

 

Nice............ Well. That looks like lots of chances for him to be pulled earlier. Lets see what happens next year.

[Larry Cook]

Look, it was a very nice win today.

 

We need the offense to keep hitting and not have a porcello meltdown.

 

It would be nice if bogey, pedroia and benintendi would contribute!

[BstHcpr]

f*** Dan Shaughnessy, Bob Ryan, Jerry Remy, and Eck. David Price just shoved one deep in their asses.

[Slasher9]

Just got home from the game. Was so awesome.

[Oscars]

Fantastic win.

Given that Porcello has given up HRs to every Joe who from where this season, what are the chances he can keep the Astros juggernaut at bay even for 1 inning ?

[Bellhorn04]

Hanley was on a freaking mission today.

 

Are you suggesting that he raised the level of his game, Kimmi?