The "I Support, I hate ___" thread.

[mvp 78]

So they should they have traded Ortiz?

 

Did Ortiz hit 2 HRs in the first half of 2008?

[devildavid]

Did Ortiz hit 2 HRs in the first half of 2008?

 

What does that have to do with anything? You said to trade high. If a player is not starting off the next season very well you already missed your opportunity to trade high.

[devildavid]

I love Francona- my favorite Red Sox manager, but how good a job did he do in September 2011?

 

You have to look at his entire body of work. Was he overall good or bad for the Boston Red Sox. I think he passes the test. In 2011 he had a bad year and it showed on the field. He is still a good manager as his results so far in Cleveland clearly show.

[mvp 78]

What does that have to do with anything? You said to trade high. If a player is not starting off the next season very well you already missed your opportunity to trade high.

 

I wanted to trade Pedroia last year as I didn't think his great play would last. Ortiz still had a few good seasons left. Who knows if Pedroia will.

[a700hitter]

And back around we come to what is the basis of your opinion. Please don't say cognitive ability. Because you really have no way to measure it. What is it about the behavior of baseball management that brings you to your conclusion? Give some examples.

As I stated, it is my opinion. How does a person form an opinion as to the intelligence of others? You tell me.

[a700hitter]

You have to look at his entire body of work. Was he overall good or bad for the Boston Red Sox. I think he passes the test. In 2011 he had a bad year and it showed on the field. He is still a good manager as his results so far in Cleveland clearly show.

He is my favorite Red Sox manager, but he couldn't make a difference in September 2011.

[devildavid]

I wanted to trade Pedroia last year as I didn't think his great play would last. Ortiz still had a few good seasons left. Who knows if Pedroia will.

 

But no one in 2008 knew what Ortiz had left, just as you don't know today what Pedroia has left.

[devildavid]

As I stated, it is my opinion. How does a person form an opinion as to the intelligence of others? You tell me.

 

No, you tell me, as you are the one expressing an opinion. Opinions of intelligence are normally based upon observations of behavior. You tell me what behaviors inform your opinion of the intelligence of baseball management. I don't think that baseball management needs any special kind of cognitive ability but they do need to understand the sport and how to evaluate talent. Just like an auto mechanic needs to understand the mechanical workings of an automobile. We all tend to have specialized knowledge of the jobs we do which has little to do with general intelligence and more to do with experience, interests, and to some extent with natural inclinations and abilities that lend themselves to the jobs we do. What kind of abilities do you think are required to succeed in management in baseball?

[devildavid]

He is my favorite Red Sox manager, but he couldn't make a difference in September 2011.

 

You may like him but do you think he was a successful manager for the Red Sox?

[a700hitter]

No, you tell me, as you are the one expressing an opinion. Opinions of intelligence are normally based upon observations of behavior. You tell me what behaviors inform your opinion of the intelligence of baseball management. I don't think that baseball management needs any special kind of cognitive ability but they do need to understand the sport and how to evaluate talent. Just like an auto mechanic needs to understand the mechanical workings of an automobile. We all tend to have specialized knowledge of the jobs we do which has little to do with general intelligence and more to do with experience, interests, and to some extent with natural inclinations and abilities that lend themselves to the jobs we do. What kind of abilities do you think are required to succeed in management in baseball?

it is an opinion, albeit a generalized one, formed on years of observation of moves and behaviors. As with any generalized opinion, there are of course exceptions. People form stereotypical opinions of groups based on experiences and observations all the the time and many are well earned, I.e car salesmen and lawyers. I have formed one of baseball FO personnel and field managers with which you disagree. Let's leave it at that. I have already formed an opinion of you too quite a while back. I could be mistaken, and I can't prove it, but it's there.

[a700hitter]

You may like him but do you think he was a successful manager for the Red Sox?

The team was successful while he was at the helm, so what do you think?

[devildavid]

it is an opinion, albeit a generalized one, formed on years of observation of moves and behaviors. As with any generalized opinion, there are of course exceptions. People form stereotypical opinions of groups based on experiences and observations all the the time and many are well earned, I.e car salesmen and lawyers. I have formed one of baseball FO personnel and field managers with which you disagree. Let's leave it at that. I have already formed an opinion of you too quite a while back. I could be mistaken, and I can't prove it, but it's there.

 

I think car salesmen and lawyers get a bad rap. As well as accountants and meteorologists. They all get blamed for things that really aren't their fault. Maybe the same is true for baseball managers.

[devildavid]

The team was successful while he was at the helm, so what do you think?

 

Do you have trouble typing the words yourself?

[a700hitter]

Do you have trouble typing the words yourself?

It was such a silly question that I assumed it was a rhetorical question.

[a700hitter]

I think car salesmen and lawyers get a bad rap. As well as accountants and meteorologists. They all get blamed for things that really aren't their fault. Maybe the same is true for baseball managers.

Speaking as a lawyer, the stereotype is well-earned, but there are exceptions.

[devildavid]

Speaking as a lawyer, the stereotype is well-earned, but there are exceptions.

 

I don't blame lawyers for people's inability to comply with the law and get along with each other. I have not had any major issues with my limited use of lawyers. Some people use their lawyers in a negative way. They are a much needed profession but I hope continue to make limited use of them.

[devildavid]

It was such a silly question that I assumed it was a rhetorical question.

 

Here is all I wanted you to do. Type the following words: Terry Francona is a good manager. See how easy it is?

[mvp 78]

Here is all I wanted you to do. Type the following words: Terry Francona is a good manager. See how easy it is?

 

Wrong.

 

Terry Francona is a great manager. Probably top 3? (Bochy, Maddon, Tito)

[devildavid]

Wrong.

 

Terry Francona is a great manager. Probably top 3? (Bochy, Maddon, Tito)

 

No argument from me.

[a700hitter]

Here is all I wanted you to do. Type the following words: Terry Francona is a good manager. See how easy it is?

I don't do what you want me to do. I love Terry Francona. He is my favorite Red Sox manager and the team was very successful when he was manager. He certainly wasn't a bad manager imo, but he is not a great manager imo. In my judgment the list of truly great managers is very short.

[a700hitter]

Wrong.

 

Terry Francona is a great manager. Probably top 3? (Bochy, Maddon, Tito)

i don't believe Maddon's press clipping although he surely does. Any manager that hands in a lineup card listing 2 third basemen resulting in the loss of the DH for the game falls short of the greatness bar. Also, his mismanagement of the bullpen in game 7 of the World Series would have had him wearing the goats horns if his team didn't bail him out. Bochy may be the top manager in the game today. I agree with you about him.

[mvp 78]

i don't believe Maddon's press clipping although he surely does. Any manager that hands in a lineup card listing 2 third basemen resulting in the loss of the DH for the game falls short of the greatness bar. Also, his mismanagement of the bullpen in game 7 of the World Series would have had him wearing the goats horns if his team didn't bail him out. Bochy may be the top manager in the game today. I agree with you about him.

 

I don't think Maddon is a great in game manager. He always gets his guys ready to play though. Rays always seemed to have a better record than they should have had and the Cubs smashed a 100 year old curse without issue.

[a700hitter]

I don't think Maddon is a great in game manager. He always gets his guys ready to play though. Rays always seemed to have a better record than they should have had and the Cubs smashed a 100 year old curse without issue.

He does seem to have a good rapport with his teams. Also, the teams in TB that overperformed had some very good talent. Check out the rosters starting in 2008. They had a lot of talent. In 2006 and 2007, when they had no talent, his teams were miserable losing 101 games and 86 games.

[mvp 78]

He does seem to have a good rapport with his teams. Also, the teams in TB that overperformed had some very good talent. Check out the rosters starting in 2008. They had a lot of talent. In 2006 and 2007, when they had no talent, his teams were miserable losing 101 games and 86 games.

 

http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/TBR/2008.shtml

 

Hard to see that team as a WS contender going into that year.

[a700hitter]

http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/TBR/2008.shtml

 

Hard to see that team as a WS contender going into that year.

Certainly they would not have been a favorite to go to the WS, but they were a very talented team. And they would not have gone to the WS if Beckett didn't get injured in the playoffs.

[mvp 78]

http://m.mlb.com/news/article/2466501//

 

Most people saw promise, not playoffs.

[a700hitter]

http://m.mlb.com/news/article/2466501//

 

Most people saw promise, not playoffs.

They had a lot of talent. It is not like he took a bunch of journeymen to the playoffs. That is my only point. The Yankees fell apart that season as they changed managers, and the Red Sox played a big chunk of the stretch drive without Beckett who then got injured in the playoffs. It was a best case scenario for Maddon's young squad. He deserves credit for keeping that young group together and engaged. I think he helped them believe in themselves, but there was a lot of talent on that squad and his subsequent teams. After going to the WS, they developed a cockiness as a squad with Longo as the leader.

[Kimmi]

Maddon is one of the trifecta of self-important micro managers. I do not support him.

[S5Dewey]

Maddon is one of the trifecta of self-important micro managers. I do not support him.

 

Maddon blundered his way through the World Series, got outmanaged at every turn, and still managed to pull victory from the grasp of stupidity.

[Kimmi]

Maddon blundered his way through the World Series, got outmanaged at every turn, and still managed to pull victory from the grasp of stupidity.

 

In other words, the team won in spite of Maddon.