Farrell

[Slasher9]

I am looking right now at the slugging percentages for the top 8 Sox this year in total bases and at bats. Bogaerts is indeed dead last, but his .391 ain't that far below the top, Betts, at .435. Last year Betts slugging percentage was .534 and Ortiz's was .620 and HanRam's was .505.

 

I say again, we don't have any sluggers this year, not when our very best is just .044 better than our worst. I sure can't buy that our run scoring and overall OPS's got worse because of Bogaerts. On the other hand, there was the 16-4 run in August when it sure looked like two guys, Nunez and Devers, were making a difference.

 

We lost Ortiz, simple as that, and evidence for that being the core of our scoring problems is overwhelming. But Bogaerts batting 3d? Heck, Kimmi claims it's like the 5th most important slot behind 1st, 2d, 4th, and 5th--according to a book she read I think.

 

From an earlier post: btw - Max - i am trying to figure out if you want to keep JF or fire him. i know i reached my limit a couple months ago and am firmly planted in fire JF with no going back. i feel like you have been flip-flopping for a few weeks. where you at on this?

[moonslav59]

It shouldn't be all about wins and losses, but I think that's what Max looks at.

[Bellhorn04]

I'm pretty much in the same boat as Max. I think Farrell should be judged on the team's final performance this year. I get all the stuff about bonehead mistakes, but I don't think they should be the determining factor.

 

My biggest concern about Farrell is the motivational factor. I'm not sure whether the players like playing for him or whether they're playing their hardest for him or not.

[moonslav59]

I'm pretty much in the same boat as Max. I think Farrell should be judged on the team's final performance this year. I get all the stuff about bonehead mistakes, but I don't think they should be the determining factor.

 

My biggest concern about Farrell is the motivational factor. I'm not sure whether the players like playing for him or whether they're playing their hardest for him or not.

 

Those are basically my only significant beefs with JF:

 

1) Too little "fire and desire"

 

2) Severe lack of fundamentals

[Maxbialystock]

From an earlier post: btw - Max - i am trying to figure out if you want to keep JF or fire him. i know i reached my limit a couple months ago and am firmly planted in fire JF with no going back. i feel like you have been flip-flopping for a few weeks. where you at on this?

 

You're darn right I want to fire him--at least, on those days when I get really mad. The rest of the time I think, "meh, the manager can only do so much, and that does not include making a silk purse out of a sow's ear. If your hitting stinks with pretty much the same guys (less Ortiz, who retired) as the year before, the manager can't fix that by changing lineups, especially when their OPS's are gravitating toward a mean of .750." I also remain relatively untroubled by the presumed endless boneheaded plays which I think are given far too much credit for games lost, which to me is the real bottom line for any manager."

 

So, yes, definitely flip-flopping, which includes last year and maybe 2015. So, while I defend Farrell on many specifics, I do not feel at this point he has proven he should be brought back in 2018. Win the AL East, probably. Win the ALDS, for sure.

[Maxbialystock]

It shouldn't be all about wins and losses, but I think that's what Max looks at.

 

Mostly wins and losses, yes. Farrell is still here in part because of 2013 and despite finishing last in 2014 and 2015. So, while wins and losses are important--and I think they are especially so this year in his 5th year with the Sox--clearly management thinks other factors are in play and think they are right (to a point).

 

Valentine lasted 1 year, so John Henry would appear to have low tolerance for what he sees as ineptitude. And didn't Grady Little get the boot mostly because of the 2003 ALCS?

 

Francona lasted 8 years in large part because of 2004 and 2007. Some have said he deserved to stay despite the 2011 September collapse, but I was not one of them. And I could have been wrong given how well he has done in Cleveland.

[Bellhorn04]

Those are basically my only significant beefs with JF:

 

1) Too little "fire and desire"

 

2) Severe lack of fundamentals

 

I think the true test of the 'fire and desire' will come in the games ahead.

[Maxbialystock]

Back to the lineups. My no doubt simplistic view if this year's lineup(s) is that nobody has enough slugging power to make a real difference in the 3, 4, or 5 slots. Last year the Sox top three in slugging percentage were ranked 1st (Ortiz), 16th (Betts), and 33d (HanRam) among all MLB regulars. This year our top two are Nunez at 95th and Moreland at 97th, and that 95th for Nunez was mostly earned with the Giants, not Sox.

 

Of equal interest to me is the Betts prospered last year batting leadoff with an OPS of .896: he led the team in runs with 122 and was second in rbi's with 113. Furthermore that team led the AL in runs scored with 100 more than the #2.

[devildavid]

Those are basically my only significant beefs with JF:

 

1) Too little "fire and desire"

 

2) Severe lack of fundamentals

 

Are you feverish? What is this thing called fire and desire and how can you tell if the team is playing with it or not?

You don't want Holt playing but he epitomizes fire and desire.

You love Betts but he seems to be very relaxed on the field.

Pomeranz is emotionally placid but hasn't he made a positive contribution?

 

You need to list some examples of the lack of fire and desire you have observed in performance on the field.

[Bellhorn04]

Chris Sale certainly has fire and desire.

[Maxbialystock]

Chris Sale certainly has fire and desire.

 

I read somewhere that he's actually faking it. Same goes for anyone else who seems to have fire and desire--its acting. The best way to determine real fire and desire is to look at the won-lost record with respect to fan expectations. The 2013 team, for example, didn't seem to have all that much until after they won the WS (a complete surprise). Today everyone believes they saw it right after that horrific bombing on Patriot's Day and that, of course, Farrell had nothing to do with it. Consequently, when just about everybody but Ellsbury came back for 2014, they bombed because Farrell just doesn't like fire and desire. Xanax, maybe. Plus he looked carefully at the guys he thought were faking fire and desire a tad too much and asked Cherington to dump them. Since then the Sox have lacked fire and desire--except for the guys who like to fake it just to irritate the manager.

[Slasher9]

I read somewhere that he's actually faking it.

 

Link? that sounds like an interesting article.

[Bellhorn04]

I do believe old Max is putting us on sometimes.

[Maxbialystock]

Link? that sounds like an interesting article.

 

My bad. I thought I wrote something that was so insane no one would doubt I was being facetious. If anything, Sale's fire and desire now and then get him into trouble. Forget his pitching. I love the way he gets to 1b on any grounders to the right and generally defends his position.

[oldtimer]

Are you feverish? What is this thing called fire and desire and how can you tell if the team is playing with it or not?

You don't want Holt playing but he epitomizes fire and desire.

You love Betts but he seems to be very relaxed on the field.

Pomeranz is emotionally placid but hasn't he made a positive contribution?

 

You need to list some examples of the lack of fire and desire you have observed in performance on the field.

 

Nunez

[SoxnCycles]

I think this perceived "lack of fire..." is just a result of the type of players that are on the team.

I agree that Sale has it.

Pedroia has it, when he's able to play.

The rest simply don't have the intense personalities that you see in guys like Ortiz.

I think is also why there were questions about a lack of leadership, earlier this year.

They certainly play like they have it, just look at their record.

[Kimmi]

I think this perceived "lack of fire..." is just a result of the type of players that are on the team.

I agree that Sale has it.

Pedroia has it, when he's able to play.

The rest simply don't have the intense personalities that you see in guys like Ortiz.

I think is also why there were questions about a lack of leadership, earlier this year.

They certainly play like they have it, just look at their record.

 

These guys want to play and win as much as any other team. You are right about the players just not having intense personalities. The JD Drews of the world are so misunderstood.

 

We need to bring back my man Youkilis. Or is that too much fire?

[moonslav59]

Are you feverish? What is this thing called fire and desire and how can you tell if the team is playing with it or not?

You don't want Holt playing but he epitomizes fire and desire.

You love Betts but he seems to be very relaxed on the field.

Pomeranz is emotionally placid but hasn't he made a positive contribution?

 

You need to list some examples of the lack of fire and desire you have observed in performance on the field.

 

My temperature is normal.

 

I've said it's just my opinion, but I have seen a lack of excitement, energy and focus. I called it "fire and desire".

 

Holt is a dolt. His "fire" is not rubbing off on anyone. Maybe if he could hit over .500, it might.

 

Pom has been a big part of our success. I never said every player has to be the energizer bunny, but I'm just been getting a feeling or lethargy. I'm not talking smash the water cooler madness of the Trot Nixons of the world either, but it might be nice to actually get excited when we hit one of our rare HRs, or to show some team spirit in the dugout when the game is on the line.

 

Maybe we're missing the spirit of Papi, and maybe no manager could breathe life into this team and keep them focused on fundamentally sound baseball. Look, I can't prove what I feel, but I feel it very strongly. Maybe I'm in a distinct minority. Maybe I'm totally wrong, but I feel what I feel.

 

I've also said that teams can win without "it",

 

I'm still very hopeful this year. I love pitching and defense, and we have both. I'm just hoping we don't end the season on a major blunder, cause I'll go ape-doo-doo.

 

[moonslav59]

Chris Sale certainly has fire and desire.

 

I never said every player lacks it or that every player needs to exude it.

[S5Dewey]

My temperature is normal.

 

I've said it's just my opinion, but I have seen a lack of excitement, energy and focus. I called it "fire and desire".

 

Holt is a dolt. His "fire" is not rubbing off on anyone. Maybe if he could hit over .500, it might.

 

Pom has been a big part of our success. I never said every player has to be the energizer bunny, but I'm just been getting a feeling or lethargy. I'm not talking smash the water cooler madness of the Trot Nixons of the world either, but it might be nice to actually get excited when we hit one of our rare HRs, or to show some team spirit in the dugout when the game is on the line.

 

Maybe we're missing the spirit of Papi, and maybe no manager could breathe life into this team and keep them focused on fundamentally sound baseball. Look, I can't prove what I feel, but I feel it very strongly. Maybe I'm in a distinct minority. Maybe I'm totally wrong, but I feel what I feel.

 

I've also said that teams can win without "it",

 

I'm still very hopeful this year. I love pitching and defense, and we have both. I'm just hoping we don't end the season on a major blunder, cause I'll go ape-doo-doo.

 

 

I agree with you, that on the whole this team has shown very little excitement lately. However, I now have to question what good that "excitement" would do since we've been schooled to believe that hitting is not contagious.

[moonslav59]

I agree with you, that on the whole this team has shown very little excitement lately. However, I now have to question what good that "excitement" would do since we've been schooled to believe that hitting is not contagious.

 

Good one.

 

I guess maybe I'm asking too much for expecting players to (show they) care.

 

In all seriousness though, I do think when players seem interested it at least gives the impression they are focusing. When you observe lethargy and untold amounts of bone head plays, frustration sinks in. I realize over intense states of mind can be counter-productive, and winning and losing is not tied to how I feel about this team's state of mind.

I'm just saying what I'm feeling.

 

For once, I can't back up my opinions with stats or data. "Stat geeks" can have gut feelings too.

[Bellhorn04]

Let's have a 'bonehead log' for the rest of the year on this thread, then.

[S5Dewey]

Good one.

 

I guess maybe I'm asking too much for expecting players to (show they) care.

 

In all seriousness though, I do think when players seem interested it at least gives the impression they are focusing. When you observe lethargy and untold amounts of bone head plays, frustration sinks in. I realize over intense states of mind can be counter-productive, and winning and losing is not tied to how I feel about this team's state of mind.

I'm just saying what I'm feeling.

 

For once, I can't back up my opinions with stats or data. "Stat geeks" can have gut feelings too.

 

Maybe those gut feelings are right and not everything in baseball can be quantified statistically.

[devildavid]

My temperature is normal.

 

I've said it's just my opinion, but I have seen a lack of excitement, energy and focus. I called it "fire and desire".

 

Holt is a dolt. His "fire" is not rubbing off on anyone. Maybe if he could hit over .500, it might.

 

Pom has been a big part of our success. I never said every player has to be the energizer bunny, but I'm just been getting a feeling or lethargy. I'm not talking smash the water cooler madness of the Trot Nixons of the world either, but it might be nice to actually get excited when we hit one of our rare HRs, or to show some team spirit in the dugout when the game is on the line.

 

Maybe we're missing the spirit of Papi, and maybe no manager could breathe life into this team and keep them focused on fundamentally sound baseball. Look, I can't prove what I feel, but I feel it very strongly. Maybe I'm in a distinct minority. Maybe I'm totally wrong, but I feel what I feel.

 

I've also said that teams can win without "it",

 

I'm still very hopeful this year. I love pitching and defense, and we have both. I'm just hoping we don't end the season on a major blunder, cause I'll go ape-doo-doo.

 

 

Holt is not a dolt. He went through a very tough physical ailment this season. He was a very good bench player prior to that. Your disdain for him is misplaced.

 

You have not really given any solid evidence of any lethargy or lack of fire or spirit. This team seems to have fun playing ball. That's good enough for me. They celebrate plenty during games. I'm not sure what you are seeing because I don't see it. Fundamentally sound baseball has nothing to do with fire or spirit. They are not related. Poor fundamentals may be hurting this team and maybe there are examples of it. Some may be due to youth and inexperience and maybe, just maybe, getting too excited and trying to do too much.

[moonslav59]

Maybe those gut feelings are right and not everything in baseball can be quantified statistically.

 

Of course everything having to do with baseball can not be captured by numbers. It's one reason the game is the greatest game ever invented.

 

While I love stats, I played this great game and know there's a lot to it that is not quantifiable.

 

[Maxbialystock]

Aggressive baserunning = tangible evidence of fire. Leading MLB in dingers = a bunch of good swings but no tangible evidence of desire.

[Maxbialystock]

No team scoring and winning a lot has ever been accused of lacking fire. No team with weak hitting and a losing record has been declared to be full of fire.

[moonslav59]

Holt is not a dolt. He went through a very tough physical ailment this season. He was a very good bench player prior to that. Your disdain for him is misplaced.

 

You have not really given any solid evidence of any lethargy or lack of fire or spirit. This team seems to have fun playing ball. That's good enough for me. They celebrate plenty during games. I'm not sure what you are seeing because I don't see it. Fundamentally sound baseball has nothing to do with fire or spirit. They are not related. Poor fundamentals may be hurting this team and maybe there are examples of it. Some may be due to youth and inexperience and maybe, just maybe, getting too excited and trying to do too much.

 

You don't see what I see, okay.

 

Maybe I'm the only one (with maybe S5) that sees a lack of spark.

 

I'm not saying they never show excitement after an HR or walk-off, but to me, it looks muted.

 

There is no "evidence" because it's just what I perceive.

 

Again with the "trying to do too much" reason for blunders. Running with your head down, forgetting how many outs there are and losing focus is very hard for me to view as a "result of trying too hard". Maybe some outs are a result of trying too hard or over aggressiveness. Again, I have no issues with that. Blunders are freaking blunders. They are bonehead plays caused by lack of focus or just plain stupidity by the player or coach/manager.

 

(Note: is is possible to try very hard and lose focus at the same time, but the blunders I'm speaking of are seemingly not of that ilk.)

 

 

Holt was pretty much a dolt before the injury. (Alert: obvious hyperbole)

 

Trying hard is worth nothing when you can't hit or field. he's a good base runner- rah rah!

 

He had value when he could hit over .700, because that made up for his lack of defensive skills at any of the 7 positions he apparently knows how to field. When we had a DH only DH, his versatility made him a net plus. Now, he's not.

 

I don't blame Holt. The injury probably messed him up. My beef is with JF leading him off 5 times and batting him 2nd 3 times. He should be the last guy off the bench, That's the value he gives JF- flexibility to use everyone else when needed.

 

[moonslav59]

Max, you crack me up!

 

[oldtimer]

You don't see what I see, okay.

 

Maybe I'm the only one (with maybe S5) that sees a lack of spark.

 

I'm not saying they never show excitement after an HR or walk-off, but to me, it looks muted.

 

There is no "evidence" because it's just what I perceive.

 

Again with the "trying to do too much" reason for blunders. Running with your head down, forgetting how many outs there are and losing focus is very hard for me to view as a "result of trying too hard". Maybe some outs are a result of trying too hard or over aggressiveness. Again, I have no issues with that. Blunders are freaking blunders. They are bonehead plays caused by lack of focus or just plain stupidity by the player or coach/manager.

 

(Note: is is possible to try very hard and lose focus at the same time, but the blunders I'm speaking of are seemingly not of that ilk.)

 

 

Holt was pretty much a dolt before the injury. (Alert: obvious hyperbole)

 

Trying hard is worth nothing when you can't hit or field. he's a good base runner- rah rah!

 

He had value when he could hit over .700, because that made up for his lack of defensive skills at any of the 7 positions he apparently knows how to field. When we had a DH only DH, his versatility made him a net plus. Now, he's not.

 

I don't blame Holt. The injury probably messed him up. My beef is with JF leading him off 5 times and batting him 2nd 3 times. He should be the last guy off the bench, That's the value he gives JF- flexibility to use everyone else when needed.

 

 

I don't think its wise to call players unflattering names. It is however perfectly acceptable to point out deficiencies and Holt for whatever reason is not the player he was in recent years. I agree that he should be low on the list of players entering the game and would advise against including him in the plans for next year. We should be able to do better and I believe we have better options available on the team in Lin and Hernandez for next year, unless the team wants to look further.