Theo Epstein; Greatest Baseball Executive Ever

[moonslav59]

Not me.

 

I'm fine with your opinion.

 

Here's the argument for Branch:

 

Had Branch Rickey retired from baseball in 1942, before he ran the Dodgers, before he signed Jackie Robinson, his record as a general manager would still be enough to warrant consideration as the greatest GM in the game’s history. By that time he had already built one of history’s best organizations, winning six pennants and four World Series while completely revising baseball player development and instruction and inventing the farm system model that is still in place nine decades later. When you add in his Brooklyn years, both the building of one of baseball’s best and most iconic teams and his historic and courageous act to integrate the game, it is a relatively easy call.

 

Branch Rickey first envisioned an organized “farm system” as a solution to the high cost of buying minor league players. A team could instead sign amateur players (for much less money) and then assume the cost of developing the players on teams under its control. Rickey became a legendary talent evaluator, able to make decisions quickly on players. Among other things, he valued speed and youth. No sentimentalist, he tried to trade players before they started to decline rather than after. With his huge farm system, he believed he could fill the holes created when he traded his veterans away.

 

From 1926 to 1946 the Cardinals won nine pennants and six World Series. Rickey did not have complete control of the club — Breadon hired and fired the managers, for example — and the relationship between the two men had become a bit strained by the early 1940s. When the Dodgers offered an ownership stake and more authority in October 1942, Rickey moved to Brooklyn. (Sound familiar?) Rickey could not do much with the war going on — all his players were in the service — but he worked on building his farm system to be ready. In 1943 alone the Dodgers signed Rex Barney, Duke Snider, Gil Hodges, and Ralph Branca. Over the next couple of years Brooklyn added Carl Erskine and Clem Labine, two other mainstays of Dodger teams to come.

 

The most important event of Rickey’s career, of course, was the signing of Jackie Robinson in October 1945. After losing a pennant playoff in 1946, the Dodgers won NL pennants in 1947 and 1949 and then lost in 1950 on the season’s final weekend. Unlike the prewar teams, by 1950 the Dodgers had several good players in their twenties and more on the way. In late 1950 Rickey began to sense that his position had weakened with his partners and decided to cash in his stake and take a job running the Pittsburgh Pirates. Walter O’Malley bought Rickey’s share and gained control of the club. The core of talent Rickey left behind won four more pennants and the 1955 World Series. The acolytes he left, including Buzzie Bavasi and Al Campanis, built on Rickey’s foundation to create and maintain baseball’s model organization for another four decades.

 

 

[Slasher9]

white only baseball. pre crazy contract $$$ baseball. pre FA baseball. i cant give any GM from the "olden days" the same credit as someone that is doing it now. there are so many more layers today. international, free agent, budgets, etc.

theo epstein is the greatest GM of all time. that ever was. and ever will be. so it is written. so it shall be.

[moonslav59]

white only baseball. pre crazy contract $$$ baseball. pre FA baseball. i cant give any GM from the "olden days" the same credit as someone that is doing it now. there are so many more layers today. international, free agent, budgets, etc.

theo epstein is the greatest GM of all time. that ever was. and ever will be. so it is written. so it shall be.

 

Branch couldn't just go out and sign an established player like Lester. That shouldn't be held against him. It should count in his favor.

 

Just the fact that he thought outside the box and signed Jackie Robinson is something he should get enormous credit for.

 

He set up the minor league system when there was none.

 

Just because it was long ago, doesn't mean his value should be discounted.

[a700hitter]

white only baseball. pre crazy contract $$$ baseball. pre FA baseball. i cant give any GM from the "olden days" the same credit as someone that is doing it now. there are so many more layers today. international, free agent, budgets, etc.

theo epstein is the greatest GM of all time. that ever was. and ever will be. so it is written. so it shall be.

Why would white only baseball make their job any easier?

[Bellhorn04]

Even setting aside his achievements with the Red Sox, what Theo Epstein just did with the Cubs franchise is awe-inspiring. In 5 years he delivered a World Series champion and a team that is well set up to take a run at more titles over the next few years. And he almost made it look easy.

[Slasher9]

Why would white only baseball make their job any easier?

when you can only build your team with 10 choices instead of 110 choices there is less chance to make the wrong choice.

[moonslav59]

Even setting aside his achievements with the Red Sox, what Theo Epstein just did with the Cubs franchise is awe-inspiring. In 5 years he delivered a World Series champion and a team that is well set up to take a run at more titles over the next few years. And he almost made it look easy.

 

They haven't won but one ring.

 

I've heard "dynasty" too much over recent years.

 

Theo's not the only GM to take a 70 to 75 win team to a championship in 5 years. Some have done it quicker.

 

I think the curse hype has gone to far.

[Bellhorn04]

They haven't won but one ring.

 

I've heard "dynasty" too much over recent years.

 

Theo's not the only GM to take a 70 to 75 win team to a championship in 5 years. Some have done it quicker.

 

I think the curse hype has gone to far.

 

The 'curse hype'? Haha...yeah, I guess now that we've won it 3 times we can downplay the importance of these things.

[moonslav59]

The 'curse hype'? Haha...yeah, I guess now that we've won it 3 times we can downplay the importance of these things.

 

It's important to the fan, but really, how is taking a 70 win team that won a WS 30 years ago any easier than taking an 70 win team that hasn't won in a 100 years froma GM's perspective?

[Slasher9]

Branch couldn't just go out and sign an established player like Lester. That shouldn't be held against him. It should count in his favor.

 

Just the fact that he thought outside the box and signed Jackie Robinson is something he should get enormous credit for.

 

He set up the minor league system when there was none.

 

Just because it was long ago, doesn't mean his value should be discounted.

 

to me it's the opposite. when you have no choices you cant really mess up. Signing Jackie Robinson was easy. He was a 28 year old baseball stud living in the suburbs of CT. putting a contract in front of him was a layup. now if you want to talk about what jackie did, went through, and accomplished then yes we are talking about enormous credit.

[Slasher9]

It's important to the fan, but really, how is taking a 70 win team that won a WS 30 years ago any easier than taking an 70 win team that hasn't won in a 100 years froma GM's perspective?

 

i think its the he did it with two different long suffering franchises that's the key. as much as i wanted to call Theo the Greatest GM of all time back in 2004 i decided to wait until he did it with the Cubs too.

[moonslav59]

to me it's the opposite. when you have no choices you cant really mess up. Signing Jackie Robinson was easy. He was a 28 year old baseball stud living in the suburbs of CT. putting a contract in front of him was a layup. now if you want to talk about what jackie did, went through, and accomplished then yes we are talking about enormous credit.

 

If it was so "easy" why wasn't it done earlier.

 

Come on!

 

EASY?!?!?

 

The man got death threats!

[cp176]

Times were just a little bit different. Any owner or manager who did what Rickey did was in fact taking his life into his own hands. If it had been easy to do, it would have been done years before for some of the greatest players who ever played the game. Theo has done a great job, but comparing him to those that did the job generations before is impossible. We all get an equal vote as to who we think the greatest of all time was. Hey - I take Russell over Jordan everyday of the week.

[moonslav59]

Times were just a little bit different. Any owner or manager who did what Rickey did was in fact taking his life into his own hands. If it had been easy to do, it would have been done years before for some of the greatest players who ever played the game. Theo has done a great job, but comparing him to those that did the job generations before is impossible. We all get an equal vote as to who we think the greatest of all time was. Hey - I take Russell over Jordan everyday of the week.

 

I would too.

 

1955 NCAA Championship

1956 NCAA Championship

1956 Olymic Championship

56-57 NBA Championship

57-58 Lost in finals of NBA Championship even though they out-scored the Hawks led by Bob Petite and Cliff Hagen

58-59 NBA Championship

59-60 NBA Championship

60-61 NBA Championship

61-62 NBA Championship

62-63 NBA Championship

63-64 NBA Championship

64-65 NBA Championship

65-66 NBA Championship

66-67 Lost Div Finals (player-coach)

67-68 NBA Championship (player-coach)

68-69 NBA Championship (player-coach)

 

That's 11 NBA championships, 2 college championships and an Olympic Gold Medal in 15 seasons. 14 total in 15 seasons!

 

Never going to be matched.

Edited November 11, 2016 by moonslav59

[Spudboy]

Times were just a little bit different. Any owner or manager who did what Rickey did was in fact taking his life into his own hands. If it had been easy to do, it would have been done years before for some of the greatest players who ever played the game. Theo has done a great job, but comparing him to those that did the job generations before is impossible. We all get an equal vote as to who we think the greatest of all time was. Hey - I take Russell over Jordan everyday of the week.

 

I knew that I liked you.

[Spudboy]

I would too.

 

1955 NCAA Championship

1956 NCAA Championship

1956 Olymic Championship

56-57 NBA Championship

57-58 Lost in finals of NBA Championship

58-59 NBA Championship

59-60 NBA Championship

60-61 NBA Championship

61-62 NBA Championship

62-63 NBA Championship

63-64 NBA Championship

64-65 NBA Championship

65-66 NBA Championship

66-67 Lost Div Finals (player-coach)

67-68 NBA Championship (player-coach)

68-69 NBA Championship (player-coach)

 

That's 11 NBA championships, 2 college championships and an Olympic Gold Medal in 15 seasons. 14 total in 15 seasons!

 

Never going to be matched.

 

This is a prime example of what I mentioned before. People seem to be in awe of what they just saw and hardly ever remember great things from way back.

 

There is no comparison between these two. Regardless of generation.

[Bellhorn04]

My personal belief is that you can't compare Russell and Jordan with each other. It's like comparing hitters and pitchers in baseball. Apples and oranges.

[moonslav59]

My personal belief is that you can't compare Russell and Jordan with each other. It's like comparing hitters and pitchers in baseball. Apples and oranges.

 

Maybe the same goes with Branch and Theo.

[Bellhorn04]

Maybe the same goes with Branch and Theo.

 

Yeah, that's a fair point.

[cp176]

This is a prime example of what I mentioned before. People seem to be in awe of what they just saw and hardly ever remember great things from way back.

 

There is no comparison between these two. Regardless of generation.

 

Kindred spirits. These are the people that we grew up with. There was one and only one player that I ever saw who I truly believe could have guarded Jordan effectively - John Havlicek!!! Russell and Havlicek etc. epitomized what I still feel the games are all about. Team first. and while I am on a rant, all of the people who still watch Tommy gun Hiensohn today and have no clue about the type of athlete he was - He was a lot better than real good. He was a tough assed sob from the word go. Aurbach surrounded himself with winners - gamers! The past really is still relevant.

[cp176]

Maybe the same goes with Branch and Theo.

 

 

excellent

[Spudboy]

Kindred spirits. These are the people that we grew up with. There was one and only one player that I ever saw who I truly believe could have guarded Jordan effectively - John Havlicek!!! Russell and Havlicek etc. epitomized what I still feel the games are all about. Team first. and while I am on a rant, all of the people who still watch Tommy gun Hiensohn today and have no clue about the type of athlete he was - He was a lot better than real good. He was a tough assed sob from the word go. Aurbach surrounded himself with winners - gamers! The past really is still relevant.

 

I don't know that Havlicek could stay with Jordan. He could run up and down the court and out shoot him, but Jordan had much quicker feet and was a more effective athlete.

 

It would be an interesting mach-up, though. Put Don Cheney on Jordan and that would be very interesting.

 

By the way. I met Havlicek once and he is a major dick. Rude as f***.

[cp176]

I don't know that Havlicek could stay with Jordan. He could run up and down the court and out shoot him, but Jordan had much quicker feet and was a more effective athlete.

 

It would be an interesting mach-up, though. Put Don Cheney on Jordan and that would be very interesting.

 

By the way. I met Havlicek once and he is a major dick. Rude as f***.

 

sorry to hear that about Hondo. I had forgotten about the "the duck". Once again a classic celtic.

[Kimmi]

Read this...

 

Branch Rickey

https://pursuitofpennants.wordpress....branch-rickey/

 

or this...

 

Pat Gillick

https://pursuitofpennants.wordpress....2-pat-gillick/

 

I'm not saying these guys are clearly better than Theo, but both were very impressive.

 

 

Neither of those links worked, but I have looked at the accomplishments of both. I think that the points made about the recency effect and about trying to compare GMs from different eras are both valid points.

 

IMO, Theo is still the best. I fully admit that I am partial to Theo and that my opinion is slanted by bias, but to me, there's no question about it.

[Bellhorn04]

Neither of those links worked, but I have looked at the accomplishments of both. I think that the points made about the recency effect and about trying to compare GMs from different eras are both valid points.

 

IMO, Theo is still the best. I fully admit that I am partial to Theo and that my opinion is slanted by bias, but to me, there's no question about it.

 

Likewise on all points.

[moonslav59]

Try this. Scroll down to number 1 and click....

 

http://sabr.org/latest/armour-and-levitt-best-25-gms-baseball-history

 

[moonslav59]

I'm fine with saying Theo is the best since 1970. That's when I started following baseball, but I could never say the best of all timw without at least doing some cursory research on GMs from before my time.

[Kimmi]

Try this. Scroll down to number 1 and click....

 

http://sabr.org/latest/armour-and-levitt-best-25-gms-baseball-history

 

 

The article does a good job of describing the difficulties of trying to compare GMs. It is a very subjective exercise.

 

Also, this article was written in January of 2015. I wonder how much their ranking of Theo has changed with the Cubs winning the World Series.

[moonslav59]

The article does a good job of describing the difficulties of trying to compare GMs. It is a very subjective exercise.

 

Also, this article was written in January of 2015. I wonder how much their ranking of Theo has changed with the Cubs winning the World Series.

 

Probably a lot, but should one long awaited ring really move him all the way to number one in the long history of MLB?

 

It's hard for me to pick, but clearly Theo is the best I've seen.

[Kimmi]

Probably a lot, but should one long awaited ring really move him all the way to number one in the long history of MLB?

 

It's hard for me to pick, but clearly Theo is the best I've seen.

 

In this case, I think it does make a huge difference. Theo had a 5 year plan and the plan worked perfectly. He stripped that team down and rebuilt it more or less from the ground up. This is a case where Theo was clearly THE man in charge of the decisions and the plan, and a case where he did not inherit an already good team that he just improved. And the team he built should be very good for the foreseeable future.

 

IMO, what he did with the Cubs is phenomenal and unmatched.