How will this team finish the season?

[Kimmi]

This home stand may be what makes or breaks the team. I'm going to the games in Detroit Aug.18-21. I hope i'm not embarrassed wearing my Red Sox tees...

Of course the Tigers are pretty well sucking too.

 

The Sox have a lot of home games in July. This is the month that they have to turn it around.

[Kimmi]

Price isn't even showing to be a top level talent this year, let alone 2 yrs from now.

 

No, but his history and his current peripherals suggest that he will return to top level. Don't you think that's possible, even likely?

[Slasher9]

Do you watch baseball with a financial spreadsheet of salaries? Here is my view on salaries... they are all overpaid. Price is the best pitcher on our roster for my ticket price. He is not what needs fixing on the 2016 roster.

 

ok....i will forget salaries for a moment...

4.74 / 5.90 / 2.18 / 3.90

which two are the "problem"?

which two are not the "problem"?

which one is the "Ace"?

[TheBabeStrikesBack]

No, but his history and his current peripherals suggest that he will return to top level. Don't you think that's possible, even likely?

 

It's possible but still remains to be seen.

And the drop in velocity has to be a concern.

[a700hitter]

I am not 'all over' Price. I have stated that he is not the problem. I am simply saying that, as our ace and leader of the staff, he needs to pitch better. Can you deny that?

 

As far as being patient with him, here is what I posted to UN before the first time you questioned my patience:

 

I'm not saying that he's a sunk cost or anything. He gets more time to become acclimated. I'm just saying as our ace, he will need to do better.

 

It's not like I'm calling for him to be DL'd or DFA'd, or calling his contract a huge mistake. FTR, I am confident that he will find his ace level pitching soon.

 

Also FTR, it is my opinion that the offense is largely to blame for our record in June. They weren't as bad as they were in May of last year, but there were several games where the pitching was good enough to keep us in the game, and the offense came up empty.

You defend Buchhholz ad nauseum, but you never miss an opportunity to criticize Price. We all realize that he is not pitching to his norms, but he is not the problem with this roster.

 

So you are back to blaming the offense. That argument may be more absurd than it was last year when you blamed the offense for the team not being in first place. The offense in 2015 and this year s the strength of this team. Hitting is cyclical. It is not going to score double digit runs every game or get double digit hits every game. Good teams need to win 3-2 and 4-3 games. That is when the pitching needs to step up. Our pitching did not step up last year. It was either the worst or in the bottom 3 for the season. The offense was at the top. You are a stats person, right? The same pattern is emerging this year. But go ahead blame the offense if it makes you happy. Lat year you blamed Papi. Who is your victim this year?

[a700hitter]

Farrel and Buchh are both gone after this year, so what's the problem?

Maybe sooner for Buch.

[a700hitter]

I can't speak for others, but if by 'they' you are including me, you are 100% off base. Quit making false statements about what 'they' think.

 

As far as Buchholz goes, I have acknowledged that he has been awful so far. So, am I not allowed to voice an opinion that Price has not pitched to his level of expectation so far?

Price loses a game when he gives up 4 runs in 6 1/3 innings with 10 k's and you and others are posting negative about him like he blew up on the mound. It really wasn't that terrible of a start. It wasn't up to Price's standards, but let's get a little perspective.

[SoxnCycles]

Maybe sooner for Buch.

 

Gee, ya think?

[SoxnCycles]

Price loses a game when he gives up 4 runs in 6 1/3 innings with 10 k's and you and others are posting negative about him like he blew up on the mound. It really wasn't that terrible of a start. It wasn't up to Price's standards, but let's get a little perspective.

 

Yeah, the Texas game has nothing to do with feeling he's not pitching well enough to help this team out of a hole.

Or the Baltimore game, or the Yankees game, or the previous Tampa Bay game...

[a700hitter]

Red Sox starter's ERA is 4.79. Wright, Porcello and Price's ERAs are 2.18, 3.78 and 4.74, respectively. That means the other 2 guys pitching in that turn are utter dog s***. Every other guy who has taken the hill has an ERA above 5.00. Henry Owens has been the team's 4th best starter and they threw him in Pawtucket. Buchholz has been their 5th best starter and has a negative WAR! Clearly, there is an upgrade they can make for the last two roster spots.

The problem can be stated so clearly and so simply, but there will be reams of posts that the problem is Price and the offense. Blaming the offense is completely perplexing to me. As for blaming Price, I guess his salary really bothers some people, and his performance could never please them. I still think that Porcello's extension was a budgetary mistake, but you don't see me posting that he is the problem on this roster. I wish that we had 2 clones of Porcello to drop into the rotation. The dogshit problem at the end of the rotation couldn't be any more clear -- unless Papi goes 0-4 today-- then he is to blame.

 

There is no obvious solution to this problem in our system. Waiting and hoping for Buch and Kelly probably will guarantee that we will be fighting the Yankees and the Rays for last place in September. What do you think about stretching out Hembree to see if he can give us some quality starts? He seems to have the stuff.

[Jack Flap]

i agree with you - i dont think we see it the same way. to me, Buchholz (and his sh1tea performance in 2016) is not a problem. it's a 1 year option at minimal cost and i didnt expect him to be TOTR guy (although i always hold out hope). Price OTOH (and his sh1tea performance in 2016) is a problem. it's a 7 year deal (the highest contract ever for a SP i believe) for $31MM per and i DO expect him to be a TOTR guy. we can look at all the peripherals we want to show me how great Price has been this year. but there is only 1 true number when it comes to SP.

that number for Price is currently 4.74. this puts him about as close to buchholz (5.90) as he is to Porcello (3.78). you can forget about wright and his 2.18.

 

i hope your last sentence is because you believe Price will pitch 1.50 the rest of the way instead of wright or porcello pitching to a 6.00.....

 

That'd be correct...well, I'm not predicting a 1.50 ERA, but you get the idea. I like Wright and Porcello a lot, I just think Price will be back to performing like the ace we expected by year's end.

 

As for the rest... again, I'm not excusing Price or saying he doesn't have to be better-- he does -- but Clay has fallen short of even the most minimal expectations anyone had for him this year, and he and the other (cough) esteemed individuals not named Price, Porcello, or Wright who have started games for us have hurt this team far more than anything Price has or hasn't done. But I don't think I'm going to change your mind on this, and it feels like this discussion has gone around and around already.

[User Name]

They really need to give O'Sullivan another shot, and that Wilkerson kid his first.

[Kimmi]

You defend Buchhholz ad nauseum, but you never miss an opportunity to criticize Price. We all realize that he is not pitching to his norms, but he is not the problem with this roster.

 

So you are back to blaming the offense. That argument may be more absurd than it was last year when you blamed the offense for the team not being in first place. The offense in 2015 and this year s the strength of this team. Hitting is cyclical. It is not going to score double digit runs every game or get double digit hits every game. Good teams need to win 3-2 and 4-3 games. That is when the pitching needs to step up. Our pitching did not step up last year. It was either the worst or in the bottom 3 for the season. The offense was at the top. You are a stats person, right? The same pattern is emerging this year. But go ahead blame the offense if it makes you happy. Lat year you blamed Papi. Who is your victim this year?

 

I'm not sure how your posts to me always get to the point where I'm no longer defending the topic, but rather defending what I have or have not said. You again are way off base with opinions that you are attributing to me. This entire post is wrong on every level. Quit making stuff up.

 

Strawman argument.

[a700hitter]

When we have the mess that we currently have in our #4/5 slots, we need to be able to win the games that Price starts.

We are not going to win every one of his starts. Three of the 8 losses in Price games were by scores of 2-1, 3-2 and 3-2, and Price got the loss in only 2 of those games.

[a700hitter]

Dombrowski has stated that he is aggressively looking for pitching, but as of now, there are only 5 teams who are clear sellers. I'm sure the prices are astronomical. As you said, it will be another 3 weeks before talks get serious.

 

In the meantime, we need to hope that Price can pitch like an ace, and that Buchholz can regain some semblance of the pitcher that he was last year.

 

We also need the offense to do its job. They were shut out by a pitcher with a 5+ ERA yesterday. Unacceptable.

He should have aggressively pursued another pitcher in the off season. Once we started the season with this staff, the whining about the cost of adding a pitcher during the season was as predictable as a sunrise.

[SoxnCycles]

That'd be correct...well, I'm not predicting a 1.50 ERA, but you get the idea. I like Wright and Porcello a lot, I just think Price will be back to performing like the ace we expected by year's end.

 

As for the rest... again, I'm not excusing Price or saying he doesn't have to be better-- he does -- but Clay has fallen short of even the most minimal expectations anyone had for him this year, and he and the other (cough) esteemed individuals not named Price, Porcello, or Wright who have started games for us have hurt this team far more than anything Price has or hasn't done. But I don't think I'm going to change your mind on this, and it feels like this discussion has gone around and around already.

 

I see it as a time contraint issue.

We all know Buchholz can't be in the rotation for the forseeable future.

But, with no viable replacement in-house, he becomes an problem with no immediate fix.

If Price were providing some ace-like performances, the Sox may have some time to get a deal done to fix the back of the roation.

With Price being merely average, it puts a real crimp in the amount of time available to get a deal done.

 

Without some shut down perfomances you'd expect from an ace, it may to be too late to fix the rest of the rotation.

[a700hitter]

ok....i will forget salaries for a moment...

4.74 / 5.90 / 2.18 / 3.90

which two are the "problem"?

which two are not the "problem"?

which one is the "Ace"?

Who would you hand the ball to?

[a700hitter]

Yeah, the Texas game has nothing to do with feeling he's not pitching well enough to help this team out of a hole.

Or the Baltimore game, or the Yankees game, or the previous Tampa Bay game...

Okay, you have convinced me. Give the ball to Buch in the Wild card game if we get there.

[a700hitter]

I'm not sure how your posts to me always get to the point where I'm no longer defending the topic, but rather defending what I have or have not said. You again are way off base with opinions that you are attributing to me. This entire post is wrong on every level. Quit making stuff up.

 

Strawman argument.

You didn't blame the offense last year for the team not being in first place? You didn't blame the offense today for our June swoon? You don't defend Buch ad nauseum? You didn't jump all over Price for 6 1/3 innings with 4 runs and 10 k's yesterday? You could have fooled me.

[SoxnCycles]

Okay, you have convinced me. Give the ball to Buch in the Wild card game if we get there.

 

If Price keeps pitching like crap, there will be no wild card game.

Or, don't you see that?

[a700hitter]

If Price keeps pitching like crap, there will be no wild card game.

Or, don't you see that?

Do you think he will end the season with a 4.74 ERA? If he does, the team will not be in the Wild Card game. Are you more confident that Buch will turn things around than Price? What would you base that on?

[SoxnCycles]

Do you think he will end the season with a 4.74 ERA? If he does, the team will not be in the Wild Card game. Are you more confident that Buch will turn things around than Price? What would you base that on?

 

Right now, I have no confidence in either of them.

I have no confidence in the offense to bail out the pitching staff either. They went from a .305 Ba in May to .271 in June.

But, that's not a problem!

 

This team has a slew of problems in addition to not having a viable #4 or #5 pitcher.

 

But, some folks are happy with tunnel vision.

It's all Buchholz' fault!

[a700hitter]

Right now, I have no confidence in either of them.

I have no confidence in the offense to bail out the pitching staff either. They went from a .305 Ba in May to .271 in June.

But, that's not a problem!

 

This team has a slew of problems in addition to not having a viable #4 or #5 pitcher.

 

But, some folks are happy with tunnel vision.

It's all Buchholz' fault!

 

Fix Buchholz and the #5 slot and you fix this team. That is right. You are down on every aspect of the team. I guess you will boo Papi if he strikes out over the weekend.

[Jack Flap]

I see it as a time contraint issue.

We all know Buchholz can't be in the rotation for the forseeable future.

But, with no viable replacement in-house, he becomes an problem with no immediate fix.

If Price were providing some ace-like performances, the Sox may have some time to get a deal done to fix the back of the roation.

With Price being merely average, it puts a real crimp in the amount of time available to get a deal done.

 

Without some shut down perfomances you'd expect from an ace, it may to be too late to fix the rest of the rotation.

 

Maybe Price pitching better would buy us some time, but even if his ERA was 1.74 instead of 4.74, he could only cover for 2/5ths of the rotation being a black hole for so long. We desperately need someone to step up and stabilize the back end.

[SoxnCycles]

Fix Buchholz and the #5 slot and you fix this team. That is right. You are down on every aspect of the team. I guess you will boo Papi if he strikes out over the weekend.

 

I asked MVP this question and got nothing.

 

Is DD actively trying to fix the back end of the rotation, or is he just incompetent?

[SoxnCycles]

Maybe Price pitching better would buy us some time, but even if his ERA was 1.74 instead of 4.74, he could only cover for 2/5ths of the rotation being a black hole for so long. We desperately need someone to step up and stabilize the back end.

 

Yup, and that "for so long" is about 3 weeks.

 

If the back end of the rotation isn't fixed by then, the Sox are toast, even if Price goes on a 10 win streak after the deadline.

[Slasher9]

Who would you hand the ball to?

 

2.18

[a700hitter]

I asked MVP this question and got nothing.

 

Is DD actively trying to fix the back end of the rotation, or is he just incompetent?

I am sure that he is trying to fix it. The bad decision was putting reliance in Buch and Kelly to start the season. The problem should have been addressed in the off season.

[a700hitter]

2.18

So you would hand the ball to Wright instead of Price? I am a big believer in riding the hot hand, but I don't know if I would do that.

[Slasher9]

So you would hand the ball to Wright instead of Price? I am a big believer in riding the hot hand, but I don't know if I would do that.

 

5.12

Price career ERA in postseason. even worse than his ERA thus far this season.

so i'm not sure that helps your argument on who to give the ball to in a 1 game must win.