Bogaerts and Bradley By Joseph Werner from ESPN

[a700hitter]

Bogaerts is still only 21 years old. He is hitting again, and his SS defense is improving. I think a lot people forget how young he is. I still think big things are ahead for the kid. JBJ on the other hand will probably be used as a trade chip. There will be some team that has SP that the Sox need who think they can fix JBJ hitting and have a Gold Glove CF.

JBJ is more of a buffalo chip than a trade chip at this point. I don't think anyone is losing sight of XB's age, but I think the expectations for him to be the next Sox superstar are a thing of the past.

[Behindenemylines]

JBJ is more of a buffalo chip than a trade chip at this point. I don't think anyone is losing sight of XB's age, but I think the expectations for him to be the next Sox superstar are a thing of the past.

 

How many teams would take JBJ if he could hit .240 to .250? There is going to be some team that thinks they can get him to hit that and give them gold glove D!

[a700hitter]

How many teams would take JBJ if he could hit .240 to .250? There is going to be some team that thinks they can get him to hit that and give them gold glove D!

he'd be at most a throw in. By himself, he nets us nothing. He is a busted prospect that has now become a project. The market for projects with no power potential is close to zero.

[seabeachfred]

65 years? How old are you, Fred?

 

Raul Mondesi actually played in the 1990s and early 2000s. His career slash in late and close games was .270/.328/.462. In tied games, it was .281/.338/.483. Where is the proof he was a choker?

 

Spitball, Mondesi hit only when the team was way ahead or way behind. He never got the big hit in close games and when with the Yankees it was almost a joke as he was referred to as the out man when things were on the line. The guy was a classic in hitting into double plays with men on base and then singling with no one on base to start an inning. I saw him plenty out here in LA and he was a real choker-----something that Bogaerts may be even worse at.

 

I will be 74 on October 27 and have been a rabid fan since I was about seven, wearing my little Dodger uniform while playing with my friends in the Queens of the late 40's and early 50's. The best player I ever saw was Willie Mays, the best managing job I ever watch was Leo Durocher's with the Giants in 1954, and my greatest thrill as a kid was the July 4th Doubleheader win by the Dodgers over the Giants at Ebbets Field. The worse experience was when Bobby Thomson hit that three run homer to win the pennant for the Giants that same year. Now you're up to date.

[seabeachfred]

No, it's way too early to give up on Bogaerts. He's 21. He's hit 11 jacks. It's not like JBJ who's only hit 1.

 

Bellhorn, I know you want to believe and probably do that Bogaerts is the next great Red Sox player, but take this one to the bank. He will never be the player you expect him to be. His lack of clutch hitting and piss poor performance with RISP and with men on base generally is the sign of a choker who cannot handle pressure. Coupled with his penchant for losing his concentration, rushing throws, being in the wrong place at the wrong time and poor bat control all combine for a player who is of two possibilities----one, still young enough to learn how to play the game better, or a stark warning that this is not the guy you want to depend on down the road. Right now he is a total choker who cannot play well under pressure, and while he held his own last year in the post-season it is starting to look more like a mirage. This season has shown him to be less than what the Red Sox believed him to be and I would not expect to ever see him rise into the star status---AND THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT THE RED SOX WERE HOPING FOR. I would gladly include him in any trade for a top flight pitcher or a standout hitter.

[Spitball]

Spitball, Mondesi hit only when the team was way ahead or way behind. He never got the big hit in close games

 

Fred, his career line in late and close games is .270/.328/.462. That is not terrible. That is OPSing nearly .800.

 

The guy was a classic in hitting into double plays with men on base and then singling with no one on base to start an inning.

 

In 733 late and close games and 1019 plate appearances, he grounded into a mere 12 double plays. That does not sound "classic" to most unbiased baseball people.

 

Fred, I consider you a friend and an entertaining poster, but you get carried away at times. Statistics are far more reliable than our memories.

[a700hitter]

Fred, his career line in late and close games is .270/.328/.462. That is not terrible. That is OPSing nearly .800.

 

 

That's 25 points off his career OPS and his career OPS with RISP with 2 outs is 69 below his career numbers.

[Spitball]

That's 25 points off his career OPS and his career OPS with RISP with 2 outs is 69 below his career numbers.

 

That does not prove a thing. Mondesi was still decent in the clutch. He was not a "real choker". His career OPS with 2 outs and RISP is 36 higher than Dustin Pedroia's. Is Pedroia a "real choker"?

Edited September 14, 2014 by Spitball

[a700hitter]

That does not prove a thing. Mondesi was still decent in the clutch. He was not a "real choker". His career OPS with 2 outs and RISP is 36 higher than Dustin Pedroia's. Is Pedroia a "real choker"?

He was more than marginally worse over his career with RISP and 2 out. The stats bear that out. If you want to make your case with stats, make it. You didn't. I didn't call Mondesi a choker. I didn't see him play enough to come to that conclusion. I just looked up the stats like you did.

[Spitball]

I didn't call Mondesi a choker..

 

Well, then why did you stick your nose into the conversation? You jumped into the discussion I was having with Fred who said Mondesi was a choker. I enjoy discussing baseball with Fred and don't really need childish intervention.

[Spudboy]

Who the hell cares about the guy?

 

I will say this. While I will gladly concede that XB was over hyped and may not ever become the "player I expect him to be", it is still too early to tell what his ceiling is. He is 21 and obviously a talented athlete. He also appears to have a brain and drive. I don't believe that he is a "choker". He just needs to learn how to hit better ALL OF THE TIME.

 

12 months from now if the kid has not much better than he is now then I say he is closer to being a bust and go in another direction. We don't need another Middlebrooks.

[Spudboy]

Oh. Spitball I did not intend to interrupt your conversation with Fred. I just wanted to help get the conversation back to XB and avoid acrimony.

[Elktonnick]

Whether XB is a choker or not misses the point. Right now he is. Both offensively and defensively he tends to freeze in pressure situations. We see that with his low average with RISP or when he makes stupid base running decisions. We see that defensively when he makes poor throws to first because he rushed. The question is: will he outgrow these mistakes made because of his youth. The answer is we don't know. One can hope he does, but one really doesn't know with certainty. There have been cases where some guys never mature and live up to their promise because they can't adjust to the pressure of the game. Others have. Only time will tell in Bogaerts case. However, a prudent GM and FO would be well advised to have a Plan B in case he doesn't. Is Cherrington a prudent GM?

 

In any case Bogaerts certainly isn't going to be another Nomar, not by a long shot. Right now he projects to be a serviceable ML shortstop whether a choker or not.

[a700hitter]

Well, then why did you stick your nose into the conversation? You jumped into the discussion I was having with Fred who said Mondesi was a choker. I enjoy discussing baseball with Fred and don't really need childish intervention.

you can always give Fred a call if you want to have a private discussion. Fred is always eager for baseball conversation.

 

As for your use of stats, you often misuse them and erroneously use them as conclusory proof which they rarely are. A lot of people think the same way. I ascribe to Vin Scully's philosophy on statistics--they should be used in the same way that a drunk uses a lamppost -- for support not illumination. In this case, the stats didn't really support your opinion (which was really based on nothing because you didn't claim to see the guy play very much). In fact, the stats showed that he was worse in almost every pressure category and significantly worse with RISP with 2 outs. I was just pointing out that which you failed to point out when you posted the slash lines. I realize that irks you because it is very important for you to be right.

[a700hitter]

However, a prudent GM and FO would be well advised to have a Plan B in case he doesn't. Is Cherrington a prudent GM?

 

In any case Bogaerts certainly isn't going to be another Nomar, not by a long shot. Right now he projects to be a serviceable ML shortstop whether a choker or not.

I think this is the key. For better or worse, the Red Sox are committed to XB. They will have to ride it out to see what he becomes -- in large part because his trade value has been very devalued. However, they cannot count on him as a major offensive contributor in 2015. That would not be prudent, especially when we will be carrying sub par offense at catcher and an unknown quantity in Castillo in CF. IMO, they need to get a stick to play third base. Maybe that stick is Betts. I would be playing him at third for the remainder of the season to see if he can handle the hot corner. He is not going to play second next season, so why bother. He could get squeezed out of the OF with Cespedes, Castillo, Victorino and Craig. I think Betts is a Victorino type spark plug with the bat and would like to see him get a shot on 2015. They need to find him a position. Third base is wide open for the taking. Edited September 14, 2014 by a700hitter

[Elktonnick]

You and I are on the same wave length. They do need a big stick, to go with at least two frontline starters. Napoli and Ortiz will really be on their last legs next year. Who knows whether Craig will return to form. Castillo is an unknown. Middlebrooks is a strike out machine and a lost cause in my book and Victorino could easily injury himself and be out for the year sliding into second base.

 

BTW I think your Vin Scully quote is right on the money.

[a700hitter]

You and I are on the same wave length. They do need a big stick, to go with at least two frontline starters. Napoli and Ortiz will really be on their last legs next year. Who knows whether Craig will return to form. Castillo is an unknown. Middlebrooks is a strike out machine and a lost cause in my book and Victorino could easily injury himself and be out for the year sliding into second base.

 

BTW I think your Vin Scully quote is right on the money.

Not to get off topic, but I watched some of the Dodger game last night. Vin Scilly is amazing. He has such a facile mind, and he's a great baseball expert and source of baseball history. I call him a "source of history" as opposed to an historian, because he has witnessed so much. He has been broadcasting since 1952. Truly amazing. He is the play by play and color commentator -- a one man show. There is no dead air time, no silliness -- just interest baseball stories. The guy is a national treasure. Edited September 14, 2014 by a700hitter

[Elktonnick]

I heard a short re broadcast of Vin Scully calling part of Don Larsen's perfect game which is available online. Hard to believe but he really has aged very well. I remember him doing national broadcasts several years back he was terrific.

[Bellhorn04]

Scully was also an excellent football commentator, of course. He called the classic game between San Fran and Dallas that the Niners won on 'The Catch' by Dwight Clark.

[Spitball]

I have listened to Scully for years, but this is probably my most memorable call. Btw, I have long been a Dennis Eckersley fan, but I really disliked the Tony LaRussa A's and always rooted against them.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0smIeeH55HA

[Northern Star]

Not to get off topic, but I watched some of the Dodger game last night. Vin Scilly is amazing. He has such a facile mind, and he's a great baseball expert and source of baseball history. I call him a "source of history" as opposed to an historian, because he has witnessed so much. He has been broadcasting since 1952. Truly amazing. He is the play by play and color commentator -- a one man show. There is no dead air time, no silliness -- just interest baseball stories. The guy is a national treasure.

 

"facile mind?" Sounds like an insult to me?

[a700hitter]

"facile mind?" Sounds like an insult to me?

probably not the best term to describe one's mind. The term means articulate--expressing yourself easily or characterized by clear expressive language.

[Spitball]

Scully has been excellent through the years, but Curt Gowdy, Ned Martin, Fred Cusick, Johnny Peirson, and Johnny Most will always be my favorite and most knowledgeable announcers.

[a700hitter]

Scully has been excellent through the years, but Curt Gowdy, Ned Martin, Fred Cusick, Johnny Peirson, and Johnny Most will always be my favorite and most knowledgeable announcers.

Gowdy, Martin, most and Cusick were all great announcers who were around for a long time. It's amazing to think that Scully's career started as early as each of their career and has spanned well beyond not just their careers (Gowdy retired in the 70's) but for many years after the others had died.

[Spitball]

Curt Gowdy will always be my favorite announcer.

 

 

I loved Fred Cusick and Johnny Peirson.

 

 

Johnny Most and one of the most famous moments in Boston sports' history.

 

[seabeachfred]

you can always give Fred a call if you want to have a private discussion. Fred is always eager for baseball conversation.

 

As for your use of stats, you often misuse them and erroneously use them as conclusory proof which they rarely are. A lot of people think the same way. I ascribe to Vin Scully's philosophy on statistics--they should be used in the same way that a drunk uses a lamppost -- for support not illumination. In this case, the stats didn't really support your opinion (which was really based on nothing because you didn't claim to see the guy play very much). In fact, the stats showed that he was worse in almost every pressure category and significantly worse with RISP with 2 outs. I was just pointing out that which you failed to point out when you posted the slash lines. I realize that irks you because it is very important for you to be right.

 

Ted, thanks for the backup. I like Spitball and have had some nice exchanges with him but he appears to be one of those stat guys that have taken over baseball in recent years. Your take on Mondesi with RISP and two outs was a better example than the one I gave, but the facts bear that out. The guy was an out man with the game on the line. In fact, by the time he was on the Yankees in 2003 he was called the rally killer by fans at Yankee Stadium after his later pratfalls with the Dodgers and Blue Jays. I remember the July 4th game that year at YS when we hit seven homers in a 10-3 rout. Four times he came up with men on base, three of those times with at least two on the paths and all I did was relax because I knew Lowe would get him out---or he would get himself out, which he did four times. He was only one example of players with great talent who couldn't deliver and every time I see Bogaerts at the plate he reminds me so much of Raul Mondesi who choked his way out of baseball.

 

There are some here who say he is young and give him some time and most likely they are right but as my friend Elk says......we had better have a Plan B is this sort of choking goes on again next season. Face it, the Red Sox screwed this thing up the day they moved him out of SS to sign Drew---something I will rail about until the cows come home. I think our season was guaranteed to go south the moment that signing was made, but I didn't think it would affect Xander than much. He simply collapsed----and now I am very suspicious just how mentally tough the young man really is. His late hitting now that the cows have left the barn don't mean sq uat to me now because there is no pressure and our team is in the outhouse. There is no pressure on Bogaerts to perform now but there will be next season and I have some real doubts how he will perform again under clutch circumstances.

[seabeachfred]

Scully has been excellent through the years, but Curt Gowdy, Ned Martin, Fred Cusick, Johnny Peirson, and Johnny Most will always be my favorite and most knowledgeable announcers.

 

Vin Scully has been called the best baseball announcer in history. He has been called that in a book about the best callers of the game, he's been called that by just about every announcer who have been at a mike, and fans all over the country back that up and they get no argument from me. However, like you, I have my own personal favorite Spitball and he's in the Hall of Fame as well. The guy's name was Red Barber who I used to listen to when I became a baseball fan and loved to hear some of his witticisms and takes on the game. My biggest disappointment was when that greedy bastard Walter O'Malley refused to extend his contract after the 1953 season because he wanted to save money and allowed him to go to the Yankees. I've always believed a little bit of my childhood went by the boards when Red left the Dodgers.......THE BROOKLYN DODGERS I mean.

[seabeachfred]

Gowdy, Martin, most and Cusick were all great announcers who were around for a long time. It's amazing to think that Scully's career started as early as each of their career and has spanned well beyond not just their careers (Gowdy retired in the 70's) but for many years after the others had died.

 

PS Ted, even earlier than that. Scully started announcing for the Dodgers in 1950 as the third wheel behind my favorite Red Barber and also Connie Desmond, who had a wonderful voice and delivery as well but couldn't keep his hands off the bottle and wound up leaving Brooklyn in 1956.

[curiousd]

Regarding Bradley...........I am curious about what the RS are or are not doing about his batting.

 

Case in point of what could be done instead about JBJ... See "Nori" Aoki of Kansas City.

 

1. Look at Aoki batting style.....he chokes up on the bat and slashes down with a quick stroke Reference: See http://kansascity.royals.mlb.com/team/player.jsp?player_id=493114#gameType=%27R%27

2. Look up the 2014 results on Fan Graphs: Only one home run but .265 B.A. and .333 OBP.

 

 

Compare this to what the RS are having Bradley do...grasps bat on very end and uppercuts the ball but the man is too small and lacking in strength to hit more than one or two home runs a season. A fly ball he hits on the nose is often caught on warning track or before.. I think the RS have an Idee Fixe that all outfielders must be power hitters. I almost think that if the RS had Eddie Gaedel, the Bill Veeck midget, out there, they would be having Gaedel swing for the fences.

 

I do not blame Bradley for this. I think the RS are, in the instance of JBJ (and other cases like running Craig out there continually instead of shutting him down and letting him heal his ankle), fulfilling Einstein's definition of insanity, to wit:

 

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

[curiousd]

Question......I would like to start a thread on baseball humor. Or, I could build along the lines of the Vin Scully, slightly off topic entries that have appeared here recently. But where do I go in Talk Sox to find out how to start my own thread, or is a thread on baseball humor appropriate? The 2014 RS need to be considered from a humorous standpoint.