The rebuild thread.

[jopete19]

Would miss his arm in the outfield, but we have way too many major league outfielders on this roster.

[Spitball]

See the original argument was over OBP not OPS nor OPS+ . Let me recap the original discussion once again. My original contention was that the Red Sox should de emphasize working the count and have hitters like Middlebrooks et al swing earlier in the count.

 

Okay, Although I still contend I have valid arguments on all of our discussion, I will leave the other parts to concentrate on this.

 

Before tonight, Middlebrooks has had 234 plate appearances. He has swung and either had a hit or made an out in 101 plate appearances that were on the third pitch or less. He apparently is not going deep into counts very often. He was ahead in the count on 151 times in all of his plate appearances.

 

Sometimes it is the talent level and not the philosophy.

Edited September 26, 2014 by Spitball

[Elktonnick]

Recently WMB has been swinging earlier in the count. Nevertheless, I have seen virtually every one of his at bats. I can assure you he was mostly taking strike one and strike two. He struck out 70 times about one out of every three times at bat. He usually struck out on a breaking ball mostly sliders out of the zone. When he has two strikes, he is a sucker for that pitch. The pitchers know it hence the high strike out rate. They get ahead on the count then toss the sliders and its sayonara WMB. He can cut down on his strike out rate if he swings earlier on the fast ball. IMO Edited September 26, 2014 by Elktonnick

[Spitball]

Recently WMB has been swinging earlier in the count. Nevertheless, I have seen virtually every one of his at bats. I can assure you he was mostly taking strike one and strike two. He struck out 70 times about one out of every three times at bat. He usually struck out on a breaking ball mostly sliders out of the zone. When he has two strikes, he is a sucker for that pitch. The pitchers know it hence the high strike out rate. They get ahead on the count then toss the sliders and its sayonara WMB. He can cut down on his strike out rate if he swings earlier on the fast ball.

 

I watch virtually every Red Sox game, also. Middlebrooks has been bad all year long. His K-rate in the first half of the season is about exactly as bad as his second half rate. He has problems...but those problems cannot be absolutely, without a doubt, pinpointed to the Red Sox philosophy of driving up the pitch count. All year long, Middlebrooks has swung within the first three pitches almost 50% of the time. He is struggling for other reasons.

[a700hitter]

He might just stink. No philosophy can save stink.

[jopete19]

...and that's why I call him Whifflebrooks

[d-money]

Its so refreshing watching a guy like mookie betts after watching bradley jr stink it up.

[Elktonnick]

I watch virtually every Red Sox game, also. Middlebrooks has been bad all year long. His K-rate in the first half of the season is about exactly as bad as his second half rate. He has problems...but those problems cannot be absolutely, without a doubt, pinpointed to the Red Sox philosophy of driving up the pitch count. All year long, Middlebrooks has swung within the first three pitches almost 50% of the time. He is struggling for other reasons.

 

(Funny aren't you the one who said there are no absolutes) I certainly agree that he has been struggling all year. From what I saw, however, one of the reasons was he was taking too many fastballs getting behind in the count quickly. Early in the year he was trying the pull the ball virtually every time up. So he was taking pitches that weren't in his power zone. Remember this is the kid who said strike outs didn't bother him. He was up there to hit home runs. Recently he has begun to use the whole field with some success, but it may be too late. I think it is fairly clear that the FO has soured on him because of his announced refusal to play winter ball, among other things.

 

BTW, I have long considered WMB one of the dumbest players on the team. I was told that he was fitted for contacts but refuses to wear them. After that I watched his at bats more closely. I, and others on another forum, noticed he was squinting waiting for the pitcher to release the ball. I just wonder how much of his problem could be fixed either with lasik surgery or contacts

 

In any case I'd be surprised if he is on the 25 man roster next April unless he changes his attitude and is more cooperative with the team's wishes.

Edited September 26, 2014 by Elktonnick

[Bellhorn04]

...and that's why I call him Whifflebrooks

 

Not bad LOL

[a700hitter]

BTW, I have long considered WMB one of the dumbest players on the team. I was told that he was fitted for contacts but refuses to wear them. After that I watched his at bats more closely. I, and others on another forum, noticed he was squinting waiting for the pitcher to release the ball. I just wonder how much of his problem could be fixed either with lasik surgery or contacts

 

In any case I'd be surprised if he is on the 25 man roster next April unless he changes his attitude and is more cooperative with the team's wishes.

I think the way to fix the big clod is to get him a talent transplant. If he wants to have a chance to be on the squad next season, he will have to go to winter ball, play every day, and tear it up. I don't think that happens, so he might not even get an invitation to ST with the big club, especially if they sign or trade for an infielder..

[Palodios]

I think the way to fix the big clod is to get him a talent transplant.

 

Bartolo Colon surgery? Hiding steroids in fat.

[a700hitter]

Bartolo Colon surgery? Hiding steroids in fat.

 

LOL!! But Colon was talented at one time. In fact, for a fat guy, he was pretty athletic when he was young. I saw hi shaggingg flies at Fenway when he was with the Angels. The guy was good. He was agile and fairly fleet of foot. Middlebrooks is, as my dad used to say, a big stiff.

[d-money]

Whifflebrooks is getting a chance here.He should play winter ball and get a set of contacts with it.The fact that he is about as an automatic out as bradley jr should have him motivated to play winter ball and not go on vacation knowing pretty much u sucked balls!! Lol

[a700hitter]

•The Red Sox are not giving up on Will Middlebrooks in spite of building frustration, but president Larry Lucchino did make clear that the team is “looking for a left-handed hitting third baseman,” as he told WEEI’s Dennis & Callahan (via WEEI.com’s Andrew Battifarano). Though Lucchino said that prospect Garin Cecchini could be that player, he also emphasized that the team will not “make the same mistake that [we] made this year, which is to assume that so many of our young players are ready for prime time.”

When you read statements like this, the opposite is usually true. It is like when ownership gives a manager a vote of confidence. That is usually followed shortly by the manager's firing.

[Elktonnick]

When you read statements like this, the opposite is usually true. It is like when ownership gives a manager a vote of confidence. That is usually followed shortly by the manager's firing.

 

If I were Middlebrooks and read that statement, I'd be packing my bags knowing that I'm not coming back to beantown. Godfather Lucchino did everything but give him il bacio della morte.

[Bellhorn04]

Bell, you are a great poster, and I think that you are about my age, so I have to ask whether you grew up under a rock when it comes to OBP. I undertand the punk ass kids thinking they invented OBP along with sex. LOL! But I can't understand how you think it is a new concept. My dad told me about it when I was a kid.

 

I had to think about it, but here goes. I've been aware of OBP since I was a kid too. When I played organized baseball in fact, I kept track of my own OBP. Let me hasten to add, a big part of the reason I did was that I was not a good hitter. In pickup games I could hit the ball as good as anybody, but any pitcher who was actually trying to get me out with fastballs and curves could get me out easy enough.

 

As far as really analyzing baseball stats like we do now though, I didn't get into that until about 10 years ago-thanks to the internet.

 

OBP is not the end-all and be-all by any means, no. I like the point that elktonnick raised about Bill James saying that the big factor is the leadoff man getting on base.

 

Baseball is not as complicated a game as we sometimes make it with the stats. All that really matters is who wins the games, who makes the playoffs, who wins it all. All this analysis and debate is mostly for amusement purposes. Obviously I'm one of the people who enjoys it.

[Elktonnick]

One of my pet peeves is when a pitcher walks the leadoff batter. If it were permitted, I'd fine every pitcher $1000 who does so.

[a700hitter]

I had to think about it, but here goes. I've been aware of OBP since I was a kid too. When I played organized baseball in fact, I kept track of my own OBP. Let me hasten to add, a big part of the reason I did was that I was not a good hitter. In pickup games I could hit the ball as good as anybody, but any pitcher who was actually trying to get me out with fastballs and curves could get me out easy enough.

 

As far as really analyzing baseball stats like we do now though, I didn't get into that until about 10 years ago-thanks to the internet.

 

OBP is not the end-all and be-all by any means, no. I like the point that elktonnick raised about Bill James saying that the big factor is the leadoff man getting on base.

 

Baseball is not as complicated a game as we sometimes make it with the stats. All that really matters is who wins the games, who makes the playoffs, who wins it all. All this analysis and debate is mostly for amusement purposes. Obviously I'm one of the people who enjoys it.

And Bell, you know the game and you are good sport. You are right. The game is not that complicated. NO matter what advanced metrics people come up with this game will never be a science. Teddy Ballgame was as cerebral as anyone about hitting and he was very much into the actual physics of hitting, e.g. acs of swings broken down into degrees etc. His book was called the Science of Hitting. And the game does obey thaws of physics as does everything else in life, but the dynamics of building a winning team are not and never will be science.

[seabeachfred]

And Bell, you know the game and you are good sport. You are right. The game is not that complicated. NO matter what advanced metrics people come up with this game will never be a science. Teddy Ballgame was as cerebral as anyone about hitting and he was very much into the actual physics of hitting, e.g. acs of swings broken down into degrees etc. His book was called the Science of Hitting. And the game does obey thaws of physics as does everything else in life, but the dynamics of building a winning team are not and never will be science.

 

As was done in the off season after 2012, Cherington hit the exacta and got a plethora of players who were talented, still young enough, who liked one another and fit in, and the result was nirvana. Somehow we have try and reboot something along those lines this coming winter.

[Spitball]

I had to think about it, but here goes. I've been aware of OBP since I was a kid too. When I played organized baseball in fact, I kept track of my own OBP. Let me hasten to add, a big part of the reason I did was that I was not a good hitter. In pickup games I could hit the ball as good as anybody, but any pitcher who was actually trying to get me out with fastballs and curves could get me out easy enough.

 

As far as really analyzing baseball stats like we do now though, I didn't get into that until about 10 years ago-thanks to the internet.

 

OBP is not the end-all and be-all by any means, no. I like the point that elktonnick raised about Bill James saying that the big factor is the leadoff man getting on base.

 

Baseball is not as complicated a game as we sometimes make it with the stats. All that really matters is who wins the games, who makes the playoffs, who wins it all. All this analysis and debate is mostly for amusement purposes. Obviously I'm one of the people who enjoys it.

 

OBP didn't become an official statistic until the early 1980s, but I do remember my little league coaches chattering, "A walk is as good as a hit!" When I coached, I chatted it myself, usually to a weak hitter I was afraid would swing at ball four. Haha! It made me realize what my early coaches thought of my ability and judgement.

 

I must say I am definitely not a math person, but I am 61 years-old and have always loved the statistical part of baseball. I remember riding my bike to downtown Topsfield every summer day to get five packs of baseball cards for a quarter. I'd sit on the sidewalk outside Gil's Grocery and open each pack. I'd end up with five sticks of that hard bubble gum in my mouth, and I'd study the statistics on the back of each card. I would amaze people because I would earn Cs in math but could tell you a lot of yearly homerun, RBI, and batting average statistics of a lot of players.

 

I have played, coached, and watched a lot of baseball through the years. I think some of the advanced statistics are just too much, but many have enhanced my understanding and enjoyment of the game.

 

I have long felt that schools should take all the boys (and girls) who struggle with math and place them in a baseball statistic class. I know it would have provided me with a great deal of motivation to learn. In fact, I credit my weekly issue of The Sporting News with honing my reading skills.

Edited September 27, 2014 by Spitball

[a700hitter]

What does "official statistic" mean -- on the back of Topps Baseball cards? It's just a simple math calculation. Certainly,GMs prior to 1980 could get their hands on those numbers. And it really is as simple as "a walk being as good as a hit." Little league coaches have been barking that since there has been a little league.

[Spitball]

Major League Baseball made it an official statistic in 1984. On base percentage is calculated using the following formula: H+BB+HBP/AB+BB+HBP+SF.

[a700hitter]

Major League Baseball made it an official statistic in 1984. On base percentage is calculated using the following formula: H+BB+HBP/AB+BB+HBP+SF.

That just means that it was not a published stat by MLB. People in the game knew about it. It is easily done with a paper and pencil. There is no need for a powerful PC based program. Branch Rickey probably did those calcs in his head. Lol! Edited September 27, 2014 by a700hitter

[a700hitter]

The A's are said to be considering moving Donaldson. We have a huge hole at 3B. Another possibility is Jed Lowrie who is a free agent.

[Palodios]

Another possibility is Jed Lowrie who is a free agent.

 

Yes please.

[jacksonianmarch]

Haven't you gone down that road a few too many times? Lowrie finally played 150+ games in 2013 and produced rather well (2.3WAR, .790OPS). And how did he follow up such a rigorous season? With the lowest OPS of his career (in more than 40 games) and an anemic as s*** WAR of 0.8 (per ESPN). Throw in the fact that he is gonna be 31 next yr and he doesn't play a great SS either and you have a guy who is probably going to get a good contract due to positional dearth of talent who is more than likely going to spend that contract either underperforming or injured. I really, really, really hope he isn't the "answer" for us either

[Station 13]

Lowrie is bad. He contributed to the A's self destruct Wild Card game with his awful glove. I would pass.

[SoxFanForsyth]

Haven't you gone down that road a few too many times? Lowrie finally played 150+ games in 2013 and produced rather well (2.3WAR, .790OPS). And how did he follow up such a rigorous season? With the lowest OPS of his career (in more than 40 games) and an anemic as s*** WAR of 0.8 (per ESPN). Throw in the fact that he is gonna be 31 next yr and he doesn't play a great SS either and you have a guy who is probably going to get a good contract due to positional dearth of talent who is more than likely going to spend that contract either underperforming or injured. I really, really, really hope he isn't the "answer" for us either

 

have you never met Pal the Lowrie Lover before?

[Spudboy]

I was a "Lowrie Lover" a long time ago. When I saw that his name is among those in free agency this off season I immediately began to wonder if he could be had to cover 3rd and possibly cover SS if XB goes down. Just hold the position down until Cechini is ready to make the jump.

 

But I quickly came to my senses after seeing him play and looking at his numbers.

 

Pass please.

[a700hitter]

Lowrie is a thousand times better than Middlebrooks. Plus, I don't think that he will command a very big salary. His glove and arm would be more than adequate at 3B.