4/21 vs O's

[a700hitter]

Bells, I am confused now. Are you taking the position that allowing 6 or 7 runs without a pitching change on a consistent basis during the season is good strategy or that major league managers are smart? I'll argue with you about either issue, but I just want to know which position you are taking.

[Bellhorn04]

Get Workman on the Pawtuckett shuttle if the load becomes too much for Capuano or Badenhop. Middle relievers are cannon fodder as far as I am concerned.

 

Sure, but you're limited by the rules in the amount of back and forth shuttling you can do.

[a700hitter]

Capuano has been pretty much untouchable out of the bullpen this year. I know he has been a mediocre starter in the past, but he has been a pretty good reliever if you ask me.

I would have tried to avoid using him today. I would have gone to Miller after Badenhop. And while Capuano has been good thus far, we have little invested in him and Workam is waiting in the wings. If there is one group that I would not think twice about overworking, it would be the long men.

[Bellhorn04]

Bells, I am confused now. Are you taking the position that allowing 6 or 7 runs without a pitching change on a consistent basis during the season is good strategy or that major league managers are smart? I'll argue with you about either issue, but I just want to know which position you are taking.

 

Let me answer the second part of the question first.

 

Baseball managers are not hired for their IQ's. I have little doubt that there are a number of posters here with higher IQ's than Terry Francona.

 

But I don't think anybody here would do a 'smarter' job of managing a baseball team than Francona, Farrell or any of these guys. I think it's hysterically funny when a fan actually believes they could.

[a700hitter]

Sure, but you're limited by the rules in the amount of back and forth shuttling you can do.

Yes, and sometimes you have to dig deeper into the system to eat up some innings. Sometimes a guy might be up for as little as one day.

[a700hitter]

Let me answer the second part of the question first.

 

Baseball managers are not hired for their IQ's. I have little doubt that there are a number of posters here with higher IQ's than Terry Francona.

 

But I don't think anybody here would do a 'smarter' job of managing a baseball team than Francona, Farrell or any of these guys. I think it's hysterically funny when a fan actually believes they could.

Thank goodness managers don't have to be smart to be successful or some years the Championship would go unclaimed. But I think we can all call it stupidity when they do somenthing stupid -- like farrell bringing in Mujica on Sunday before the PH was announced.

 

Giving up 6 or 7 runs without making a pitching change is dumb and it has become orthodoxy among major leag managers.

Edited April 21, 2014 by a700hitter

[Bellhorn04]

Bells, I am confused now. Are you taking the position that allowing 6 or 7 runs without a pitching change on a consistent basis during the season is good strategy or that major league managers are smart? I'll argue with you about either issue, but I just want to know which position you are taking.

 

On the first part of the question, if you're doing this on a consistent basis you have a really s***** rotation and you're f***ed regardless.

 

This series we had Lackey, Peavy and Buchholz all give up a bunch of runs early and had to go the pen to cover a lot of innings. Needless to say this will just kill your team if it happens a lot.

[a700hitter]

On the first part of the question, if you're doing this on a consistent basis you have a really s***** rotation and you're f***ed regardless.

 

This series we had Lackey, Peavy and Buchholz all give up a bunch of runs early and had to go the pen to cover a lot of innings. Needless to say this will just kill your team if it happens a lot.

No disagreement there, so why not try to win the games and risk sending some of the middle relievers to an early retirement or TJ surgery?

[SoxSport]

There are 7 guys in the bullpen. That should be enough to handle the load. Capuano has ben a starter so going 3 or 4 inning a couple of times a week shouldn't be a problem. He pitched yesterday. Badenhop is the other long man. He could have gone to him earlier. I don't see the bullpen issue. You can't let games get out of hand when the starter is throwing BP. I think the tendency to leave starters in for 6-7 runs is ridiculous.

 

that other guy is full of crap. he's a pea brain.

[Bellhorn04]

No disagreement there, so why not try to win the games and risk sending some of the middle relievers to an early retirement or TJ surgery?

 

Sometimes they're wishin' and hopin' that the starter can somehow collect himself enough to get through a few more innings without giving up a pile more runs. Peavy gave up 3 in the first and he had runners on all day but he made it to the 6th giving up just 2 more runs and we were able to come back. When luck is with you that's the way it goes.

 

Again, these long and middle relievers are not in that job because they're excellent pitchers. So it's not exactly a slam dunk guarantee of good results pulling your starter after 3 runs in favor of these guys.

[Spudboy]

Let me answer the second part of the question first.

 

Baseball managers are not hired for their IQ's. I have little doubt that there are a number of posters here with higher IQ's than Terry Francona.

 

But I don't think anybody here would do a 'smarter' job of managing a baseball team than Francona, Farrell or any of these guys. I think it's hysterically funny when a fan actually believes they could.

 

Dito.

[a700hitter]

Sometimes they're wishin' and hopin' that the starter can somehow collect himself enough to get through a few more innings without giving up a pile more runs. Peavy gave up 3 in the first and he had runners on all day but he made it to the 6th giving up just 2 more runs and we were able to come back. When luck is with you that's the way it goes.

 

Again, these long and middle relievers are not in that job because they're excellent pitchers. So it's not exactly a slam dunk guarantee of good results pulling your starter after 3 runs in favor of these guys.

Sometimes your guy has nothing, and with all of the experience that managers have they should be able to do a better job of differentiating when a guy has nothing and those situations where the starter just needs to right himself. Too many times they get it wrong. As for managers doing a good job, IMO they are the gym teachers of baseball -- little more than a warm body that makes out a lineup card. Edited April 21, 2014 by a700hitter

[Bellhorn04]

Sometimes your guy has nothing, and with all of the experience that managers have they should be able to do a better job of determining when a guy has nothing and those situations where the starter just needs to right himself. Too many times they get it wrong. As for managers doing a good job, IMO they are the gym teachers of baseball -- little more than a warm body that makes out a lineup card.

 

But if there were other people that could do a better job, why wouldn't teams be hiring them? You're saying that teams like the Yankees or Red Sox invest $200 million in players and then hire buffoons to manage them. I guess what you're saying is that the entire sport is dominated by idiocy.

[a700hitter]

But if there were other people that could do a better job, why wouldn't teams be hiring them? You're saying that teams like the Yankees or Red Sox invest $200 million in players and then hire buffoons to manage them. I guess what you're saying is that the entire sport is dominated by idiocy.

There is a lot of money in boxing too. Don't ever equate money with intelligence. The pot industry is turning enormous profits. Does that mean that the local store manager is smart?

[Thunder]

Tracking the game on my phone on the way to my game was every bit as exciting as the real thing. Almost pulled off the comeback again.

[Bellhorn04]

There is a lot of money in boxing too. Don't ever equate money with intelligence. The pot industry is turning enormous profits. Does that mean that the local store manager is smart?

 

No. I guess my real question to you is, do you think there are or have been, any truly smart baseball managers? If so, who are they, what makes them smart, and what do they do differently?

 

Or are they all dummies?

[a700hitter]

No. I guess my real question to you is, do you think there are or have been, any truly smart baseball managers? If so, who are they, what makes them smart, and what do they do differently?

 

Or are they all dummies?

I don't think that they are all dumb. There are few that have had IQ's exceeding double digits. Usually, they become pretty full of themselves believing the press clippings about their genius. LaRussa is the prime example. A smart guy that lost sight of the fact that it is a pretty simple game. He would start mixing and matching relievers in the 6th inning to the point where he slowed the game down to a crawl. Cardinal games became unwatchable for me with his double switches and the overkill of the mixing and matching. As a whole, my opinion is that managers have never been a very smart bunch, but as you pointed out, it is not a job requirement. I don't know why it seems to bother you that I have a low opinion of the intelligence of baseball managers and that I refer to them as the gym teachers of baseball. I guess that it might surprise you that Hall of Fame manager, Casey Stengel (aka "the Old Professor") did not enjoy the respect of a lot of his Yankee players, many who referred to him as an idiot. He was the butt of many jokes by the players. For me, it is part of the fun of the game to make fun of poor managerial decisions.

 

I hope that it doesn't offend you that I also believe that generally politicians are disingenuous and dishonest.

[Bellhorn04]

I don't think that they are all dumb. There are few that have had IQ's exceeding double digits. Usually, they become pretty full of themselves believing the press clippings about their genius. LaRussa is the prime example. A smart guy that lost sight of the fact that it is a pretty simple game. He would start mixing and matching relievers in the 6th inning to the point where he slowed the game down to a crawl. Cardinal games became unwatchable for me with his double switches and the overkill of the mixing and matching. As a whole, my opinion is that managers have never been a very smart bunch, but as you pointed out, it is not a job requirement. I don't know why it seems to bother you that I have a low opinion of the intelligence of baseball managers and that I refer to them as the gym teachers of baseball. I guess that it might surprise you that Hall of Fame manager, Casey Stengel (aka "the Old Professor") did not enjoy the respect of a lot of his Yankee players, many who referred to him as an idiot. He was the butt of many jokes by the players. For me, it is part of the fun of the game to make fun of poor managerial decisions.

 

I hope that it doesn't offend you that I also believe that generally politicians are disingenuous and dishonest.

 

It doesn't bother me, honestly. I find it interesting. Just something to shoot the breeze about, really.

 

I have no use for politicians myself.

[a700hitter]

It doesn't bother me, honestly. I find it interesting. Just something to shoot the breeze about, really.

 

I have no use for politicians myself.

Okay, I am always up for shooting the breeze.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

A manager doesn't earn his money during the game, he earns it before and after the game in the form of preparation, keeping his players motivated, and keeping clubhouse morale up. The occasional bonehead decision in-game is the cost of doing business.

[RedSoxNC84]

The Buchholz situation is concerning. We all know his history, we all know he is capable of doing great things at times. Right now though, I think he needs to get moved to the pen, and Capuano should get a shot at the fifth slot until Buch can work it out.

[a700hitter]

A manager doesn't earn his money during the game, he earns it before and after the game in the form of preparation, keeping his players motivated, and keeping clubhouse morale up. The occasional bonehead decision in-game is the cost of doing business.

I agree. In many ways they are glorified babysitters and press agents. Tito's strength was in keeping peace in the clubhouse, keeping the egos in check and the players motivated. His strength was not in-game tactics, although I thought he did a pretty good job of late game bullpen utilization.

[jacksonianmarch]

The Buchholz situation is concerning. We all know his history, we all know he is capable of doing great things at times. Right now though, I think he needs to get moved to the pen, and Capuano should get a shot at the fifth slot until Buch can work it out.

 

Clay is a fragile soul, relegating him to the pen could lose him permanently

[mvp 78]

He doesn't have the durability to pitch out of the pen. He is what he is, a high injury risk player who can be lights out for long stretches of time and dog s*** for others.

[a700hitter]

We have to hope that Buch can work his way out of this. I don't like his drop in velocity. He debuted in the majors in 2007. Eight years later, I don't think it is a good bet that he will become durable.

[jacksonianmarch]

I think the sox were planning on moving him until he went down with shoulder woes midyear 2013. His stock couldn't have been higher. Now, he's got a shoulder issue and hasn't shown his velocity. He's down to 90.4mph, which is a career low and 1.5mph off last year's pace. Guys with diminished fastball velocity can definitely have significant success, but coupling that with a shoulder injury and lack of bite on his breaking pitches makes me wonder if his shoulder is more injured than initially thought

[rjortiz]

I think the sox were planning on moving him until he went down with shoulder woes midyear 2013. His stock couldn't have been higher. Now, he's got a shoulder issue and hasn't shown his velocity. He's down to 90.4mph, which is a career low and 1.5mph off last year's pace. Guys with diminished fastball velocity can definitely have significant success, but coupling that with a shoulder injury and lack of bite on his breaking pitches makes me wonder if his shoulder is more injured than initially thought

 

Jacko making stuff up again. CEO of Fortune 500 company, and now the Red Sox trading an ace during a World Series run.

[jacksonianmarch]

Jacko making stuff up again. CEO of Fortune 500 company, and now the Red Sox trading an ace during a World Series run.

 

I didn't say he was going to be moved last yr. I said they were planning on moving him until he went down with shoulder woes. You don't move your ace mid season. If Buchholz had had a good finish to 2013, he'd have been traded this past offseason. You're a moron

[rjortiz]

I didn't say he was going to be moved last yr. I said they were planning on moving him until he went down with shoulder woes. You don't move your ace mid season. If Buchholz had had a good finish to 2013, he'd have been traded this past offseason. You're a moron

 

Jacko in fantasyland again. Where his status is among the elites, and the unmarried women have one child. The Red Sox would have had to been blown away to trade an ace coming off a 6-7 WAR season, and they weren't going to accept prospects for him.

[jacksonianmarch]

You just don't understand logic. It's tragic really. So, let me break things down for you into itty bitty pieces so your tiny little brain can process.

 

Clay Buchholz has proven to be fragile. He's missed time in every one of his seasons and his IP max was 170. He is signed to a big money contract, but when you consider that he's not making 10-15 of his starts a year, that money could be used elsewhere. If Clay had one solid, healthy season, it might push his trade value up to where he'd get a good return on his value before another injury cropped up. He was on his way to a very solid, ace like season last yr. Knowing his history, he wasn't going to be able to sustain that year after year. Had he completed last season with 30+ starts and 200IP, his trade value would have jumped. I think the sox would have sold high on him. But, alas, his shoulder gave way and he couldn't finish, as usual. Now, he's a shell of himself.