Jose Iglesias

[jung]

Can't really blame fans for being excited and anxious about the rooks/prospects. There has not been much to get excited about around here lately and fans are not falling all over themselves to embrace the "like us cause we are goofy" campaign by Sox marketing.

 

Actually, Farrell earned major points from me for taking the bull by the horns and focusing on one of the more relevant points regarding the whole JBJ discussion. He is not a left fielder!

 

I kept waiting and waiting for somebody here to recall that when Ells got hurt he was playing out of position in left field. What we deserve would be for the Sox to bring up the talented but youthful and exuberant JBJ only to see him make an error in judgement out there and go crashing into Ells with Ells playing the role of the larger player with the more mature body at 6'1" and 195 to JBJ's 5'10" and 180 soaking wet. It would not at all be out of the question to see JBJ carted off in sections after such a train wreck, never to be seen nor heard from again for the year.

[mvp 78]

Yes, because no collisions ever happen to a CF'r...

[jacksonianmarch]

It won't make any difference if Iglesias hits .200 or .300 on the Red Sox this year. They will live or die on their starting pitching. Iglesias glove might make some difference on the pitching, however.

 

It matters for the future. If he hits .200, he wont be starting for the sox come 2014

[Station 13]

It matters for the future. If he hits .200, he wont be starting for the sox come 2014

 

It's a make or break year for Iggy. They have given him every opportunity to have SS stamp down. The organization has not been so graceful and patient with Reddick and others, they have been with Iggy and have paid him nearly $10M. If Iggy isn't hitting, he's a bench role or a package for a trade. Time is running out.

[jacksonianmarch]

Exactly. And lets say he hits .250/.300/.330 for the yr and plays GG caliber defense. Would you take that?

[SoxSport]

It matters for the future. If he hits .200, he wont be starting for the sox come 2014

 

Too early to tell. Slick-fielding SS Crawford hit .230 for the World Champion Giants last year. That's the model. Championship teams with good field, no hit SSs abound. They win on team play--defense, pitching and some offense. The Red Sox have deteriorated into a one dimensional team, not unlike the old Yawkey teams, where individual hitting was the main priority. They haven't paid enough attention to other facets of the game, including team play--moving baserunners.Too much individual play on the field. No attention to the situation.

 

I think Iggy has a problem in Boston because of the negative approach taken in his development. There has been too much media emphasis on the negative--his weak hitting--and not the positive--his strong fielding. The result is even the fans take his glove for granted and focus on his hitting. In reality, it should be the opposite for a SS--a defensive position. The FO is partly to blame for that, though they recognize they have $8 million in this kid, and have to stick with him. He is much too young (22-23) to be passing judgement on at this point. You put the kid in AAA for a year, and see what happens. Players take varying amounts of time to develop. Look at Bradley--seems ready now. But he has played ball in college for four years, and may not need much minor league development.

[jacksonianmarch]

I think expectations need to be made for the most part. He's never going to be a hitter. He's always going to get by with his glove. You are going to have to make up for the lost offense elsewhere in the lineup

[SoxSport]

I think expectations need to be made for the most part. He's never going to be a hitter. He's always going to get by with his glove. You are going to have to make up for the lost offense elsewhere in the lineup

 

What you do is turn strong defense at SS and elsewhere into a pitching asset. Too bad that isn't a saber stat.

[Station 13]

Exactly. And lets say he hits .250/.300/.330 for the yr and plays GG caliber defense. Would you take that?

 

Absolutely. A .300 OBP puts him above mid of the pack for SS. only 2 SS in 2012 has an OBP above .350, only 4 above .340

 

.650 OPS and gold glove defense is excellent for a SS.

 

Just not the sub .400 OPS ******** that is lower than some guys OBP.

[SoxSport]

Exactly. And lets say he hits .250/.300/.330 for the yr and plays GG caliber defense. Would you take that?

 

That's probably a good standard--compared to other slick fielding SSs in the past on good teams. Give or take 20 points. Depends on how you value the defense.

[Dojji]

What you do is turn strong defense at SS and elsewhere into a pitching asset. Too bad that isn't a saber stat.

 

Kinda is. Ever hear of run differential? Put crudely, it's how much more runs you scored than you allowed. The year we won it all, Lugo was that kind of SS (mostly) and we had Tek and Pedey and Coco up the middle as well, and that helped us create the best run differential in the league.

 

The saber stat that plays on run differential is called pythag for no good reason, and it attenpts to take the rate of runs scored vs runs allowed and multiply that percentage by 162 to project the number of wins a team should have and it's usually pretty accurate. Which should surprise nobody -- you win games in baseball by scoring more runs than you allow, and efforts need to be applied along both vectors, not just focusing on hitting with the position players and pretending you can pile on expensive pitching to make up for it on the other end..

 

The two years the Red Sox won the world series, our shortstops were Orlando Cabrera, who was a D guy, and Julio Lugo, who wasn't usually a D guy but played like one that year.

 

When we've tried to crowd offensive expectations into the SS position we wound up with guys like Edgar Renteria and Jed Lowrie, who didn't get it done for us for various reasons.

 

Offense at shortstop is a luxury. Good defense is the fundamental need at that position. Same for catcher. We've never been so bad at that position -- historically, not just in the Henry era -- than we demanded that above all else the catcher must hit.

 

Having a guy who can do what a catcher needs to do AND hit is great, but if you have to choose between the two, you favor catching fundamentals. Not offense. And the same goes for shortstops. It's a whole heck of a lot easier to make up for the lost runs offensively when your pitching staff flat out knows that the defense has his back and can attack the hitter with confidence.

[Palodios]

Exactly. And lets say he hits .250/.300/.330 for the yr and plays GG caliber defense. Would you take that?

 

Absolutely. The other thing to realize about a guy like Iglesias is that he'll be incredibly cost efficient based on WAR.

 

The best comparison to Iggy is Brendan Ryan, who tends to be one of the best defenders in baseball, and his .600 OPS earned him 3 million in his final arbitration year. If you're paying your shortstop 3-6 million, it allows the financial flexibility to load up on power bats around him.

[Dojji]

Indeed. Pretty much as long as Iglesias isn't putting up negative oWAR, he's going to be useful as a starter.

 

And the standard for negative oWAR is a lot lower than people seem to think it is.

 

I agree with trying to upgrade the SS position with a one year contract for Stephen Drew, but if worse comes to worst with Drew's concussion, betting on Iggy, Ciriaco, and the occasional cameo from Brock Holt to cover SS between them wouldn't be the worst organizational depth chart in the league by a long way.

[jung]

What do you know....several amazingly coherent posts about Iggy in a row. Probably to logical for the Sox to adopt a plan like that. Clearly the entire offense hinges on cloning Robin Yount. Imagine the wet dreams Sox FO guys must have about finding the next Robin Yount?

[mvp 78]

Too

[Bellhorn04]

What do you know....several amazingly coherent posts about Iggy in a row. Probably to logical for the Sox to adopt a plan like that. Clearly the entire offense hinges on cloning Robin Yount. Imagine the wet dreams Sox FO guys must have about finding the next Robin Yount?

 

Well, they have sunk quite a bit of time and money into Iggy. The defence light must have come on at some point.

[SoxSport]

Kinda is. Ever hear of run differential? Put crudely, it's how much more runs you scored than you allowed. The year we won it all, Lugo was that kind of SS (mostly) and we had Tek and Pedey and Coco up the middle as well, and that helped us create the best run differential in the league.

 

The saber stat that plays on run differential is called pythag for no good reason, and it attenpts to take the rate of runs scored vs runs allowed and multiply that percentage by 162 to project the number of wins a team should have and it's usually pretty accurate. Which should surprise nobody -- you win games in baseball by scoring more runs than you allow, and efforts need to be applied along both vectors, not just focusing on hitting with the position players and pretending you can pile on expensive pitching to make up for it on the other end..

 

The two years the Red Sox won the world series, our shortstops were Orlando Cabrera, who was a D guy, and Julio Lugo, who wasn't usually a D guy but played like one that year.

 

When we've tried to crowd offensive expectations into the SS position we wound up with guys like Edgar Renteria and Jed Lowrie, who didn't get it done for us for various reasons.

 

Offense at shortstop is a luxury. Good defense is the fundamental need at that position. Same for catcher. We've never been so bad at that position -- historically, not just in the Henry era -- than we demanded that above all else the catcher must hit.

 

Having a guy who can do what a catcher needs to do AND hit is great, but if you have to choose between the two, you favor catching fundamentals. Not offense. And the same goes for shortstops. It's a whole heck of a lot easier to make up for the lost runs offensively when your pitching staff flat out knows that the defense has his back and can attack the hitter with confidence.

 

 

Yeah--they have been more successful with SSs that play D and don't hit. That's not unusual.

Though Cabrera got some clutch hits.

 

Run differential includes the offense. Is there a stat that measures the effect of defense on pitching performance? It's hard to quantify defense, much less how it affects your pitching.

A lot of people don't like the UZI, I think they call it. Often doesn't agree with the perception of defensive performance.

[jung]

Iggy just made the kind of play that would have doinked right off of Aviles.

[BSN07]

Iggy just made the kind of play that would have doinked right off of Aviles.

 

[mvp 78]

And an 8 year old just scored for the Sox...

[mvp 78]

Matty Johnson: Smallish center fielder that plays the game with a lot of electricity. Very good fielder with outstanding range. Plus speed. Makes good contact, no power.

 

Smallish? He has to be shorter than Pedey...

[mvp 78]

The Flyin Hawaiian clears the bases. Mahalo!

[Palodios]

Edit: This is totally not a game thread. MVP confused me. Oops!

[rorschach]

Kinda is. Ever hear of run differential? Put crudely, it's how much more runs you scored than you allowed. The year we won it all, Lugo was that kind of SS (mostly) and we had Tek and Pedey and Coco up the middle as well, and that helped us create the best run differential in the league.

 

The saber stat that plays on run differential is called pythag for no good reason, and it attenpts to take the rate of runs scored vs runs allowed and multiply that percentage by 162 to project the number of wins a team should have and it's usually pretty accurate. Which should surprise nobody -- you win games in baseball by scoring more runs than you allow, and efforts need to be applied along both vectors, not just focusing on hitting with the position players and pretending you can pile on expensive pitching to make up for it on the other end..

 

The two years the Red Sox won the world series, our shortstops were Orlando Cabrera, who was a D guy, and Julio Lugo, who wasn't usually a D guy but played like one that year.

 

When we've tried to crowd offensive expectations into the SS position we wound up with guys like Edgar Renteria and Jed Lowrie, who didn't get it done for us for various reasons.

 

Offense at shortstop is a luxury. Good defense is the fundamental need at that position. Same for catcher. We've never been so bad at that position -- historically, not just in the Henry era -- than we demanded that above all else the catcher must hit.

 

Having a guy who can do what a catcher needs to do AND hit is great, but if you have to choose between the two, you favor catching fundamentals. Not offense. And the same goes for shortstops. It's a whole heck of a lot easier to make up for the lost runs offensively when your pitching staff flat out knows that the defense has his back and can attack the hitter with confidence.

 

BAM! Hands down one of the top 3 posts in this entire thread. Spot on homey :thumbsup:

[mvp 78]

Edit: This is totally not a game thread. MVP confused me. Oops!

 

I was confused by jung. Sorry!

[Palodios]

I was confused by jung. Sorry!

 

No problem at all.

[SoxSport]

The kid has done good for himself in ST. In the field, he's so good he reminds me of how good Pedro Martinez was. Has that kind of fluidity. Makes it look easy. He has improved his hitting, and is on the verge of being a ML SS. He would stick on another team, but he has an insurance policy, Drew, ahead of him. So he's better off playing every day in AAA, unless Drew gets traded.

[mvp 78]

He's starting at 3b today.

 

If they bring him up as a utility guy and he plays anywhere but SS, it'llbe an embarassment. Keep Iggy at SS and have Drew move to 2b and 3b when Pedey or WMB is out.

 

Ciriaco is playing himself off the roster.

[Dojji]

Drew has zero games experience outside the shortstop position in either the major or the minor leagues..

[mvp 78]

Drew has zero games experience outside the shortstop position in either the major or the minor leagues..

 

And?

 

If Iggy is on the field, he should be at SS, nowhere else. Why waste your best defensive player by putting him somewhere where he's less likely to be hit to?