Jose Iglesias

[mvp 78]

He's too much money for his production. If the Twins aren't eating salary, I'm not interested.

[Plumpamania]

Guys, I didn't necessarily mean Aviles. I meant a good hitting SS for Christ's sake. Bogaerts is a much better projection for our team than Iglesias or any other hitter (IE: the Andrus rumors).

[SCM33]

1. I guess when you compare Brendan Ryan at 24 when he first reached AAA to Iglesias, reaching AAA at 21, you're probably going to see a bit of a difference in numbers. But that wouldn't go with your theory, so obviously you will just ignore it and hope I don't notice. Bad news. I noticed.

 

2. Aviles is a better offensive player. But, as I showed by the total runs saved and created, Iglesias provides more support to the team. Sorry, it's math.

 

3. Here are some of Iglesias's projections coming into this season:

 

http://www.fantasypros.com/mlb/players/jose-iglesias.php

 

So, his worst projected line was .237/.275/.258. And that's actually better than the projection I posted using Ryan's numbers. Not as good in SLG, higher AVG, same OBP.

 

I'm very sorry that you can't comprehend that there are two sides to a baseball game (hint: one is defense), and that value is added on both sides.

 

Iglesias, with his .118 average this year, still would have had a WAR consistent with that of Aviles. And his BABIP of .137? I'd say that's likely to trend upward, wouldn't you?

 

Probably not, you're not a reasonable person. You just throw on the blinders and hate players without regard to statistics and facts.

 

Your argument is based on projections and comparisons to other s***** offensive players. I understand he can play defense.....I want better than both Aviles and Iglesias. Its not like I am rallying for Aviles like you are rallying for Iglesias.

 

BTW, hard to be reasonable when everyone argued with me about how I was wrong all offseason......only to disappear when it turns out that just about everything I said came to be true.

 

Hey SCM - Still waiting for your statistical proof that with Iglesias as the starting SS, we would have lost 100 games.

 

Anytime would be great. Actually, the sooner the better. Since, you know, you try to negate someone's statement by calling them out for having no statistical proof, then make a completely unjustified projection with, wait for it......no statistical proof.

 

Aviles DRS/1,200 Innings + wRC+ = 89

 

Iglesias would only need a wRC+ of 46 to match that.

 

I did, you didn't want to hear it.

 

There is no "be all end all" statistic to evaluate a player. They are all tools which help us evaluate a player. I could cherry pick some obscure (not claiming yours are) stats and claim those to be the end all of player evaluations....we could literally go back and forth all day.

[Palodios]

I did, you didn't want to hear it.

 

There is no "be all end all" statistic to evaluate a player. They are all tools which help us evaluate a player. I could cherry pick some obscure (not claiming yours are) stats and claim those to be the end all of player evaluations....we could literally go back and forth all day.

 

I searched through this thread and didn't see any statistical arguments from you on this one. Were they in another thread?

[SoxFanForsyth]

I searched through this thread and didn't see any statistical arguments from you on this one. Were they in another thread?

 

No, he didn't provide any. I showed that Iglesias could hit to a 46 wRC+, which would have been the lowest in the league this year by about 18 points, and still have a year consistent with what Aviles did, but that's not good enough apparently.

 

Some people are just stubborn and refuse to admit when they are wrong about something.

[Plumpamania]

Or some people don't want to see as fans, a near automatic out in the line up just for defense. Most Americans don't enjoy pitching duels and low scoring games.

[Palodios]

Or some people don't want to see as fans, a near automatic out in the line up just for defense. Most Americans don't enjoy pitching duels and low scoring games.

 

Be that as it may, that's the direction this league is going.

[a700hitter]

The league needs to shorten games. Good pitching an low scoring games is a start.

[Palodios]

The league needs to shorten games. Good pitching an low scoring games is a start.

 

Now that we've seen the end of the Beckett/Dice-k era in Boston, I get the feeling we'll all be saving 2-3 hours every week.

[a700hitter]

Now that we've seen the end of the Beckett/Dice-k era in Boston, I get the feeling we'll all be saving 2-3 hours every week.

I'd be happy to waste that extra time on baseball if we have a good team, but with Dice k too often the result was unrewarding. If we are going to stink, I would prefer shorter games.

[Station 13]

The league needs to shorten games. Good pitching an low scoring games is a start.

 

Then do something about the 40 man roster in September. There's a lot of pitching changes in September that adds 20-30 minutes to a game.

[SoxFanForsyth]

Or some people don't want to see as fans, a near automatic out in the line up just for defense. Most Americans don't enjoy pitching duels and low scoring games.

 

Just because fans don't want to see something doesn't mean it's not valuable to a team.

[SoxFanForsyth]

Here's a question I hope the FO considers.

 

What would be Bogaert's floor going into this season, if he was playing at the MLB level? Maybe a line of .220/.280/.400?

 

What would Iglesias's ceiling be going into this season, playing everyday? Around the same line?

 

So why not give Bogaerts the opening day job? They need to be aggressive in some areas, and that would be one area they could be aggressive in their approach. Not to mention, Bogaerts could be a .260/.320/.440 hitter this year with around 15-20 HR at the MLB level, and at the age of 21 (that'd likely be his ceiling this year). So if he came in around the mid point, would anyone be upset with the future SS hitting .240/.300/.420 with around 12 HR in your 9 hole??

[SoxSport]

The SS isn't going to make much difference. It's the pitching that will make or break this team.

 

Maybe Iggy's defense can make a difference with the pitching. I doubt the difference in hitting at SS will make much difference--unless it's Tulowitski. Most SSs aren't good hitters. The last one the Red Sox had was Nomar, and that's a rarity.

 

Teams have shown you can win a championship with a good field no hit SS. It's been proven time and again. The key is the pitching.

[a700hitter]

The SS isn't going to make much difference. It's the pitching that will make or break this team.

 

Maybe Iggy's defense can make a difference with the pitching. I doubt the difference in hitting at SS will make much difference--unless it's Tulowitski. Most SSs aren't good hitters. The last one the Red Sox had was Nomar, and that's a rarity.

 

Teams have shown you can win a championship with a good field no hit SS. It's been proven time and again. The key is the pitching.

Tulo maybe exactly the type of player around which to rebuild this team.

[SoxFanForsyth]

The SS isn't going to make much difference. It's the pitching that will make or break this team.

 

Maybe Iggy's defense can make a difference with the pitching. I doubt the difference in hitting at SS will make much difference--unless it's Tulowitski. Most SSs aren't good hitters. The last one the Red Sox had was Nomar, and that's a rarity.

 

Teams have shown you can win a championship with a good field no hit SS. It's been proven time and again. The key is the pitching.

 

Certainly the main problem is SP, but at the same time you don't want to neglect other positions just because there are other problems as well.

 

I don't think the Sox need to necessarily acquire a SS, but at the same time if Tulo is available, you go out and you acquire him because he's literally the player that you pray some of these prospects turn into.

[Plumpamania]

Troy Tulowitzki (BA/OB/SA/OPS/OPS+) (Reminder that an average player's OPS+ is 100).

 

Home - .309/.380/.541/.921/112

 

Away - .275/.347/.467/.814 /88

 

He's not worth $20/season.

[rjortiz]

Troy Tulowitzki (BA/OB/SA/OPS/OPS+) (Reminder that an average player's OPS+ is 100).

 

Home - .309/.380/.541/.921/112

 

Away - .275/.347/.467/.814 /88

 

He's not worth $20/season.

 

Tulowitzki WAR

 

2009 - 5.9

2010 - 6.3

2011 - 6.0

 

Yes, he is.

[SoxFanForsyth]

Troy Tulowitzki (BA/OB/SA/OPS/OPS+) (Reminder that an average player's OPS+ is 100).

 

Home - .309/.380/.541/.921/112

 

Away - .275/.347/.467/.814 /88

 

He's not worth $20/season.

 

I'm sorry.

 

Are you going to try to insinuate that Coors is more hitter friendly than Fenway? They are very close to the same.

 

And in terms of the away games?? The AL East is a bunch of bandboxes compared to the NL West. It's not even close.

 

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here. Not like we're taking him to SD or SafeCo.

[rjortiz]

I'm sorry.

 

Are you going to try to insinuate that Coors is more hitter friendly than Fenway? They are very close to the same.

.

 

No, they aren't, and it's not even close.

[Behindenemylines]

20 million is a lot of $$$$ for someone who has been hurt a lot the last couple of seasons. Didn't we just dump a salary (Crawford) of a guy that seam to be hurt all the time. I like Tulo, but not for those $$$$ and for that length of contract.

[Plumpamania]

No, they aren't, and it's not even close.

 

They are somewhat close, but still a very distinct difference, and not one that I would be willing to partake in as far as the difference in player at Coors and away from Coors. Fenway is a hitter's park, that's no doubt, but c'mon man.

 

MLB Park Factors - Through October 15, 2012
RK	PARK NAME	RUNS	HR	H	2B	3B	BB
1	Coors Field (Denver, Colorado)	1.579	1.493	1.276	1.223	1.971	1.082
2	U.S. Cellular Field (Chicago, Illinois)	1.268	1.349	1.081	1.133	0.885	1.206
3	Fenway Park (Boston, Massachusetts)	1.206	1.088	1.173	1.494	1.389	1.036
4	Rangers Ballpark in Arlington (Arlington, Texas)	1.183	1.168	1.117	1.157	1.029	1.000
5	Oriole Park at Camden Yards (Baltimore, Maryland)	1.173	1.314	1.099	1.065	0.684	1.027
6	Chase Field (Phoenix, Arizona)	1.171	1.192	1.064	1.176	1.176	0.955
7	Miller Park (Milwaukee, Wisconsin)	1.168	1.631	0.997	0.987	1.333	1.060
8	Great American Ball Park (Cincinnati, Ohio)	1.113	1.592	1.017	0.848	1.167	1.036
9	Comerica Park (Detroit, Michigan)	1.071	1.026	1.031	0.923	1.533	0.977
10	Target Field (Minneapolis, Minnesota)	1.044	1.031	1.030	0.989	1.905	1.082
11	Turner Field (Atlanta, Georgia)	1.038	0.873	1.011	1.197	1.040	1.038
12	Kauffman Stadium (Kansas City, Missouri)	1.034	1.028	1.037	1.025	1.257	0.987
13	Wrigley Field (Chicago, Illinois)	1.024	0.962	0.981	1.077	0.930	1.134
14	Nationals Park (Washington, D.C.)	1.023	1.044	1.063	1.000	1.192	0.944
15	Rogers Centre (Toronto, Ontario)	1.008	1.030	0.992	1.075	1.312	0.914
16	Marlins Park (Miami, FL)	1.005	0.720	0.995	0.938	1.257	1.027
17	Yankee Stadium (New York, NY)	0.992	1.143	0.927	0.881	0.423	1.008
18	Busch Stadium (St. Louis, Missouri)	0.985	0.915	1.047	1.137	0.816	0.950
19	Citizens Bank Park (Philadelphia, Pennsylvania)	0.968	1.087	0.952	0.989	0.710	1.080
20	Minute Maid Park (Houston, Texas)	0.937	0.981	0.968	0.954	0.914	1.047
21	Progressive Field (Cleveland, Ohio)	0.899	0.925	0.985	1.038	0.326	0.957
22	O.co Coliseum (Oakland, California)	0.888	0.859	0.927	0.837	1.091	1.016
23	Citi Field (New York, NY)	0.874	1.069	0.918	0.785	0.629	0.966
Tropicana Field (St. Petersburg, Florida)	0.874	0.774	0.914	0.922	1.286	1.004
25	Dodger Stadium (Los Angeles, California)	0.867	1.125	0.972	0.824	0.486	0.973
26	Petco Park (San Diego, California)	0.854	0.626	0.960	0.967	1.257	1.004
27	Angel Stadium of Anaheim (Anaheim, California)	0.812	0.759	0.906	0.909	1.095	0.769
28	PNC Park (Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania)	0.764	0.631	0.871	1.037	0.718	0.796
29	AT&T Park (San Francisco, California)	0.737	0.522	0.901	0.893	0.808	1.021
30	Safeco Field (Seattle, Washington)	0.687	0.583	0.831	0.709	0.528	1.002

[cbbosox]

Maybe the Yanks will want Iglesias. His sub .200 average would fit right in with the rest of

the team if the playoffs are any indicator.

[Station 13]

Tulowitzki WAR

 

2009 - 5.9

2010 - 6.3

2011 - 6.0

 

Yes, he is.

 

He averaged 104 games the last 3 year. Not worth it.

[rjortiz]

He averaged 104 games the last 3 year. Not worth it.

 

I'd take a chance. You can't find elite production at SS like Tulo.

[Plumpamania]

Yes you can...remember the late 90's? Tejada, Jeter, Rodriguez, Garciaparra. We also have Bogaerts in the minors who looks like he would be elite production if he continues to improve.

[SoxFanForsyth]

Yes you can...remember the late 90's? Tejada, Jeter, Rodriguez, Garciaparra. We also have Bogaerts in the minors who looks like he would be elite production if he continues to improve.

 

Yes. 15 years ago you could find elite production at SS.

 

Not anymore. It's a rare commodity now.

[rjortiz]

Yes you can...remember the late 90's? Tejada, Jeter, Rodriguez, Garciaparra. We also have Bogaerts in the minors who looks like he would be elite production if he continues to improve.

 

That was 15 years ago, and Bogaerts has a lot of detractors who question his defensive abilities at SS.

[jung]

I think teams are generally going to be more willing to live with modest offensive numbers from SS's if they are aces at run prevention. Major League BA's are on the way down on average and we are getting back to MLB where pitchers dominate. AL BA's are down 20 points in only six years and ML BA are down 12 points on average over the same period. Hard to blame discontinued use of PED's cause it has not discontinued.

 

With so much focus on league DS and CS, some of us get to see more pitchers hitting than we see most of the season. Sort of interesting how good some pitchers are as hitters. Some of these NL pitchers clearly are more of a threat than Iggy is at this point.

 

Sox sure have plenty of places where they need to make decisions. Giving Iggy his shot might not be the worst decision they make if that is how they decide to play it.

[redsoxfan3]

That was 15 years ago, and Bogaerts has a lot of detractors who question his defensive abilities at SS.

 

That is true. Bogaerts is projected as a 3B or LF. SS is still a possibility, but as his body fills out more and more, he could essentially outgrow the position. Ideally he is our SS of the future. A guy with 30 HR potential as a SS is extremely rare. With Middlebrooks blocking 3B, I would be all for him sticking at SS or moving to LF. Either way, I think we have a solid prospect in Bogaerts when he reaches his potential. He probably has a couple more years in the minors or will be a late call-up in September in 2014. It is exciting to watch guys like him and Bradley progress.