Jose Iglesias

[Dojji]

Where did I compare him to David Ortiz?

 

I said he was not a SS and will most likely follow the defensive career path of someone like Albert Pujols, who was out of position at 3B and LF (Pujols also had the bad arm).

 

You're right, you didn't compare him to David Ortiz. It's more accurate to say you compared him to anothjer former shortstop (in the minors at least) named Miguel Cabrera, and I consider that overboard too.

[SCM33]

You're right, you didn't compare him to David Ortiz. It's more accurate to say you compared him to anothjer former shortstop (in the minors at least) named Miguel Cabrera, and I consider that overboard too.

 

Why is it overboard? He's not a SS.

[Spitball]

Why is it overboard? He's not a SS.

 

He was in the minor leagues before being moved to third. He actually played more minor league games at shortstop than third.

[Dojji]

Why is it overboard? He's not a SS.

 

But he is exactly what you're describing Xander Bogaerts as. Just because Bogaerts is tall, he's doomed to fill out and not be able to play an adequate short or even become too big to play on the left side at all. You know, the same way Troy Tulowitzki did. Or Jeter. Or A-Rod. Or Nomar. Or Ernie freaking Banks who was 6'1 and got it done at short for a decade before needing to move off the position at a time when no one thought a guy could or should be a power hitting SS.

[Dojji]

He was in the minor leagues before being moved to third. He actually played more minor league games at shortstop than third.

 

Exactly. SCM described Miguel Cabrera's career track to a T whether he wants to admit it or not. Bogaerts has his faults but he's a much, much more athletic player than Miggy C.

 

Bogaerts could put on 30 pounds as he fills out and still be no heavier than some of the guys I mentioned in my prior post. He'd need to gain 20 pounds to get to Jeter's playing weight and he's 50 pounds short of A-Rod's. Heck I hope he does fill out at least a little, if he's hitting rockets at 175, he could be absurd with more ballast behind his swing.

 

This kid has room to grow and still be an effective SS if he can pick up good work habits and keep his conditioning. If he gets fat, he might have to do the Rico Petrocelli/John Valentin thing, but by everything I've heard, he's past the point where you consider not starting his career at short already and they have kept him at short. So SCM talking as if something was inevitable that has pretty much already been avoided definitely rubs me the wrong way.

[rjortiz]

No, I just don't think he is a SS.

 

I think defensively, he will take the route of a player like Albert Pujols.

 

He will bounce back and forth between 3B and LF, and eventually settle at 1B/DH.

 

Have you even seen Bogaerts play?

[SCM33]

Exactly. SCM described Miguel Cabrera's career track to a T whether he wants to admit it or not. Bogaerts has his faults but he's a much, much more athletic player than Miggy C.

 

Bogaerts could put on 30 pounds as he fills out and still be no heavier than some of the guys I mentioned in my prior post. He'd need to gain 20 pounds to get to Jeter's playing weight and he's 50 pounds short of A-Rod's. Heck I hope he does fill out at least a little, if he's hitting rockets at 175, he could be absurd with more ballast behind his swing.

 

This kid has room to grow and still be an effective SS if he can pick up good work habits and keep his conditioning. If he gets fat, he might have to do the Rico Petrocelli/John Valentin thing, but by everything I've heard, he's past the point where you consider not starting his career at short already and they have kept him at short. So SCM talking as if something was inevitable that has pretty much already been avoided definitely rubs me the wrong way.

 

Dojji......again, I did not compare him to anyone defensively. I said he's not a SS. I said he will end up at 3B/LF and eventually to 1B/DH, a positional change similar to what Pujols went through. I did not say he would get fat. I did not compare him to Miguel Cabrera. I did not say he was more athletic than Miguel Cabrera........you said all those things....

 

And when I think about it, don't say hes more athletic than the guy who just won the first triple crown since 1967, that sounds incredibly stupid considering the kid hasnt even played a game above AA.....even more ridiculous since you previously compared Daniel Nava to Ted Williams.

 

I said he isn't a SS.....and hes not.

 

Have you even seen Bogaerts play?

Have you? Kinda weird, because I have read real scouting reports, by real scouts, who really know what they are talking about......and they all say the same things that I have concluded to just by looking at his defensive metrics/numbers. I'm sorry, I don't project players based on some random talksox members account of watching him have 3 at bats at some random game he went to 2 years ago.

[Dojji]

Dojji......again, I did not compare him to anyone defensively. I said he's not a SS. I said he will end up at 3B/LF and eventually to 1B/DH, a positional change similar to what Pujols went through. I did not say he would get fat. I did not compare him to Miguel Cabrera. I did not say he was more athletic than Miguel Cabrera........you said all those things....

 

By saying those things, you are saying he's Miguel Cabrera, because that's what Miguel Cabrera is. You're shying away from that comparison once I attach a name to it because because me pointing out what the attributes you're describing combine into, and the kind of player that is, makes you realize how limited and wrong your argument is.

[Dojji]

Have you? Kinda weird, because I have read real scouting reports, by real scouts, who really know what they are talking about......and they all say the same things that I have concluded to just by looking at his defensive metrics/numbers. I'm sorry, I don't project players based on some random talksox members account of watching him have 3 at bats at some random game he went to 2 years ago.

 

A simple "I haven't seen Bogaerts" will be fine. If you're too arrogant to admit that you're talking from within a rounding error of the same level of ignorance as any of the rest of us, well, that's par for the course for you. Doesn't change reality one little bit.

[SCM33]

By saying those things, you are saying he's Miguel Cabrera, because that's what Miguel Cabrera is. You're shying away from that comparison once I attach a name to it because because me pointing out what the attributes you're describing combine into, and the kind of player that is, makes you realize how limited and wrong your argument is.

Again no, but since you insist.....Bogaerts is not a SS, and when he becomes a 1B/3B, Cabrera is still the better defensive player.

 

A simple "I haven't seen Bogaerts" will be fine. If you're too arrogant to admit that you're talking from within a rounding error of the same level of ignorance as any of the rest of us, well, that's par for the course for you. Doesn't change reality one little bit.

 

No, I havent seen him play. Scouting reports say hes not a MLB SS. I'll take their opinion over yours. Btw, has Daniel Nava blossomed into Ted Williams yet?......

[Plumpamania]

http://www.minorleagueball.com/2012/9/14/3332552/minor-league-prospect-report-xander-x-eliminator-bogaerts-red-sox

 

In this report they advise that he looks to fill in to be a 3B to RF guy.

 

http://baseballprospectnation.com/2012/07/02/scouting-report-xander-bogaerts-ss/

 

This one has him as a 3B by notion.

 

The one thing however that has been proven time and time again is that scouts don't have all the answers (que Billy Beane and Oakland). Mike Aviles is a big guy for SS and has proven to be a top tier defensive SS this year.

 

According to fangraphs the Red Sox had the third best defensive SS play in MLB last year. (http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=fld&lg=all&qual=0&type=1&season=2012&month=0&season1=2012&ind=0&team=0,ts&rost=0&age=0&players=0).

 

Jose Iglesias will never hit at the MLB level as he never hit at any level in the minors. He has no track record of anything but his glove and with the failure of Carl Crawford and the move of both him and Adrian Gonzalez we need some sort of offensive production out of SS.

 

Let's keep Mike Aviles going and then swap to Xander Bogaerts until we need another swap. Make Iglesias learn other positions and use him as our Joe McEwing.

[a700hitter]

http://www.minorleagueball.com/2012/9/14/3332552/minor-league-prospect-report-xander-x-eliminator-bogaerts-red-sox

 

In this report they advise that he looks to fill in to be a 3B to RF guy.

 

http://baseballprospectnation.com/2012/07/02/scouting-report-xander-bogaerts-ss/

 

This one has him as a 3B by notion.

 

The one thing however that has been proven time and time again is that scouts don't have all the answers (que Billy Beane and Oakland). Mike Aviles is a big guy for SS and has proven to be a top tier defensive SS this year.

 

According to fangraphs the Red Sox had the third best defensive SS play in MLB last year. (http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=fld&lg=all&qual=0&type=1&season=2012&month=0&season1=2012&ind=0&team=0,ts&rost=0&age=0&players=0).

 

Jose Iglesias will never hit at the MLB level as he never hit at any level in the minors. He has no track record of anything but his glove and with the failure of Carl Crawford and the move of both him and Adrian Gonzalez we need some sort of offensive production out of SS.

 

Let's keep Mike Aviles going and then swap to Xander Bogaerts until we need another swap. Make Iglesias learn other positions and use him as our Joe McEwing.

Keeping Aviles as the starting SS would be a commitment to mediocrity.

[Behindenemylines]

I agree, Aviles in any more of a role then as a utility guy who could play both the infield and outfield is asking for a repeat of 2012. I just don't see him as a starting SS with a team that is looking to get back to the playoffs. An if it came down to Ciriaco or Aviles for one roster spot I would take Ciriaco. I've read that Aviles was not happy with lack of playing time in September and still sees himself as a starting SS. If he is on the 2013 version and not a starter it could be a problem.

[Plumpamania]

.250 .282 .381 .663

.293 .315 .390 .705

 

Which player would you want full time? Most of us would agree player 2, but it was only his first year in the league.

 

Aviles has hit .300 three times in his MLB career. Anyone who thinks we'll be back in the middle of a playoff race next year is I'm sorry to say, not thinking clearly.

[jacksonianmarch]

If the sox go out and spend huge money to try to win next yr, Iglesias is not the answer. If they do the smart thing and get some stopgap options and effectively concede the yr, then you have to see what this kid can do

[Plumpamania]

Nah we don't. We know what he can do. Rey Ordonez V2.

[Palodios]

.250 .282 .381 .663

.293 .315 .390 .705

 

Which player would you want full time? Most of us would agree player 2, but it was only his first year in the league.

 

Aviles has hit .300 three times in his MLB career. Anyone who thinks we'll be back in the middle of a playoff race next year is I'm sorry to say, not thinking clearly.

 

Twice, actually.

[Plumpamania]

Year 	Age 	Tm 	Lg 	G 	PA 	AB 	R 	H 	2B 	3B 	HR 	RBI 	SB 	CS 	BB 	SO 	BA 	OBP 	SLG 	OPS 	OPS+ 	TB 	GDP 	HBP 	SH 	SF 	IBB 	Pos 	Awards
2008 	27 	KCR 	AL 	102 	441 	419 	68 	136 	27 	4 	10 	51 	8 	3 	18 	58 	.325 	.354 	.480 	.833 	121 	201 	12 	2 	0 	2 	4 	64/5 	RoY-4
2009 	28 	KCR 	AL 	36 	127 	120 	10 	22 	3 	1 	1 	8 	1 	0 	4 	26 	.183 	.208 	.250 	.458 	22 	30 	3 	0 	2 	1 	0 	6/5D 	
2010 	29 	KCR 	AL 	110 	448 	424 	63 	129 	16 	3 	8 	32 	14 	5 	20 	49 	.304 	.335 	.413 	.748 	104 	175 	13 	1 	0 	3 	0 	46/5D 	
2011 	30 	TOT 	AL 	91 	309 	286 	31 	73 	17 	3 	7 	39 	14 	4 	13 	44 	.255 	.289 	.409 	.698 	89 	117 	8 	2 	4 	4 	0 	546/D97 	
2011 	30 	KCR 	AL 	53 	202 	185 	14 	41 	11 	3 	5 	31 	10 	2 	9 	27 	.222 	.261 	.395 	.656 	78 	73 	5 	2 	3 	3 	0 	54/6D 	
2011 	30 	BOS 	AL 	38 	107 	101 	17 	32 	6 	0 	2 	8 	4 	2 	4 	17 	.317 	.340 	.436 	.775 	107 	44 	3 	0 	1 	1 	0 	5/6497 	
2012 	31 	BOS 	AL 	136 	546 	512 	57 	128 	28 	0 	13 	60 	14 	6 	23 	77 	.250 	.282 	.381 	.663 	76 	195 	6 	2 	3 	6 	0 	*6/D45 	

 

Three times.

[Plumpamania]

Year 	Age 	Tm 	Lg 	G 	PA 	AB 	R 	H 	2B 	3B 	HR 	RBI 	SB 	CS 	BB 	SO 	BA 	OBP 	SLG 	OPS 	OPS+ 	TB 	GDP 	HBP 	SH 	SF 	IBB 	Pos 	Awards
2008 	27 	KCR 	AL 	102 	441 	419 	68 	136 	27 	4 	10 	51 	8 	3 	18 	58 	.325 	.354 	.480 	.833 	121 	201 	12 	2 	0 	2 	4 	64/5 	RoY-4
2009 	28 	KCR 	AL 	36 	127 	120 	10 	22 	3 	1 	1 	8 	1 	0 	4 	26 	.183 	.208 	.250 	.458 	22 	30 	3 	0 	2 	1 	0 	6/5D 	
2010 	29 	KCR 	AL 	110 	448 	424 	63 	129 	16 	3 	8 	32 	14 	5 	20 	49 	.304 	.335 	.413 	.748 	104 	175 	13 	1 	0 	3 	0 	46/5D 	
2011 	30 	TOT 	AL 	91 	309 	286 	31 	73 	17 	3 	7 	39 	14 	4 	13 	44 	.255 	.289 	.409 	.698 	89 	117 	8 	2 	4 	4 	0 	546/D97 	
2011 	30 	KCR 	AL 	53 	202 	185 	14 	41 	11 	3 	5 	31 	10 	2 	9 	27 	.222 	.261 	.395 	.656 	78 	73 	5 	2 	3 	3 	0 	54/6D 	
2011 	30 	BOS 	AL 	38 	107 	101 	17 	32 	6 	0 	2 	8 	4 	2 	4 	17 	.317 	.340 	.436 	.775 	107 	44 	3 	0 	1 	1 	0 	5/6497 	
2012 	31 	BOS 	AL 	136 	546 	512 	57 	128 	28 	0 	13 	60 	14 	6 	23 	77 	.250 	.282 	.381 	.663 	76 	195 	6 	2 	3 	6 	0 	*6/D45 	

 

Three times.

[a700hitter]

.250 .282 .381 .663

.293 .315 .390 .705

 

Which player would you want full time? Most of us would agree player 2, but it was only his first year in the league.

 

Aviles has hit .300 three times in his MLB career. Anyone who thinks we'll be back in the middle of a playoff race next year is I'm sorry to say, not thinking clearly.

Aviles wasn' good enough to win a starting job for the Royals. He is a utility type player, and not a very good one. Scutaro is a far superior utility guy, who is more proficient at ore positions and much steadier at the plate, but apparently he is too expensive for our budget.

[Palodios]

Year 	Age 	Tm 	Lg 	G 	PA 	AB 	R 	H 	2B 	3B 	HR 	RBI 	SB 	CS 	BB 	SO 	BA 	OBP 	SLG 	OPS 	OPS+ 	TB 	GDP 	HBP 	SH 	SF 	IBB 	Pos 	Awards
2008 	27 	KCR 	AL 	102 	441 	419 	68 	136 	27 	4 	10 	51 	8 	3 	18 	58 	.325 	.354 	.480 	.833 	121 	201 	12 	2 	0 	2 	4 	64/5 	RoY-4
2009 	28 	KCR 	AL 	36 	127 	120 	10 	22 	3 	1 	1 	8 	1 	0 	4 	26 	.183 	.208 	.250 	.458 	22 	30 	3 	0 	2 	1 	0 	6/5D 	
2010 	29 	KCR 	AL 	110 	448 	424 	63 	129 	16 	3 	8 	32 	14 	5 	20 	49 	.304 	.335 	.413 	.748 	104 	175 	13 	1 	0 	3 	0 	46/5D 	
2011 	30 	TOT 	AL 	91 	309 	286 	31 	73 	17 	3 	7 	39 	14 	4 	13 	44 	.255 	.289 	.409 	.698 	89 	117 	8 	2 	4 	4 	0 	546/D97 	
2011 	30 	KCR 	AL 	53 	202 	185 	14 	41 	11 	3 	5 	31 	10 	2 	9 	27 	.222 	.261 	.395 	.656 	78 	73 	5 	2 	3 	3 	0 	54/6D 	
2011 	30 	BOS 	AL 	38 	107 	101 	17 	32 	6 	0 	2 	8 	4 	2 	4 	17 	.317 	.340 	.436 	.775 	107 	44 	3 	0 	1 	1 	0 	5/6497 	
2012 	31 	BOS 	AL 	136 	546 	512 	57 	128 	28 	0 	13 	60 	14 	6 	23 	77 	.250 	.282 	.381 	.663 	76 	195 	6 	2 	3 	6 	0 	*6/D45 	

 

Three times.

 

Over the year in 2011, he hit .255. The 30 games in Boston don't count because overall he hit .255.

[Dojji]

Aviles wasn' good enough to win a starting job for the Royals.

 

Not really a reasonable statement. How many of our current shortstop options would YOU play ahead of Alcides Escobar?

 

Just because the Royals are a mediocre team doesn't mean they have chumps at every position.

[Behindenemylines]

I agree that Aviles at SS is not part of a positive rebuild. As far as utility players I would take Ciriaco over him.

[iortiz]

Aviles wasn' good enough to win a starting job for the Royals. He is a utility type player, and not a very good one. Scutaro is a far superior utility guy, who is more proficient at ore positions and much steadier at the plate, but apparently he is too expensive for our budget.

 

At this point we do not have a SS. Aviles is not the answer and clearly Iglesis is not either.

 

I would play with Ciriaco over Aviles any day if out there are not other options.

[a700hitter]

Not really a reasonable statement. How many of our current shortstop options would YOU play ahead of Alcides Escobar?

 

Just because the Royals are a mediocre team doesn't mean they have chumps at every position.

The Royals' teams tha Aviles was on was chock full of chumps, and he couldn't start at any position. I believe they sent him back to the minors at some point. If we are going to rebuild our team with KC bench warmers, we will suck for a long time.

[SoxFanForsyth]

Guys - It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter if Aviles was good enough to start with the Royals or not.

 

We gave him a season to see what he could do, and now we know that he isn't an everyday SS. His defense was average, but his offense was atrocious.

 

He posted a .663 OPS in one of the most hitter friendly parks in baseball, especially for pull happy RHH.

 

Right now, this team's best option at SS is Iglesias or, if you want to push him a bit and see if he's ready and swallow some lumps while he learns at the MLB level, Bogaerts.

[SoxFanForsyth]

Guys - It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter if Aviles was good enough to start with the Royals or not.

 

We gave him a season to see what he could do, and now we know that he isn't an everyday SS. His defense was average, but his offense was atrocious.

 

He posted a .663 OPS in one of the most hitter friendly parks in baseball, especially for pull happy RHH.

 

Right now, this team's best option at SS is Iglesias or, if you want to push him a bit and see if he's ready and swallow some lumps while he learns at the MLB level, Bogaerts.

[SouthieFanatic]

Guys - It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter if Aviles was good enough to start with the Royals or not.

 

We gave him a season to see what he could do, and now we know that he isn't an everyday SS. His defense was average, but his offense was atrocious.

 

He posted a .663 OPS in one of the most hitter friendly parks in baseball, especially for pull happy RHH.

 

Right now, this team's best option at SS is Iglesias or, if you want to push him a bit and see if he's ready and swallow some lumps while he learns at the MLB level, Bogaerts.

 

I've been campaigning Bogaerts getting some early looks for a long time now. Glad to finally see someone else come out and say it. Aviles is absolutely not an everyday SS and Iglesias isn't ever going to evolve into a top of the lineup guy. It's a stretch, but it would be great to see Xander get a look next season

[a700hitter]

Guys - It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter if Aviles was good enough to start with the Royals or not.

 

We gave him a season to see what he could do, and now we know that he isn't an everyday SS. His defense was average, but his offense was atrocious.

 

He posted a .663 OPS in one of the most hitter friendly parks in baseball, especially for pull happy RHH.

 

Right now, this team's best option at SS is Iglesias or, if you want to push him a bit and see if he's ready and swallow some lumps while he learns at the MLB level, Bogaerts.

Yep, you are right about that. It's just amazing to me that the FO thought he was a suitable full time SS.

[Dojji]

Yep, you are right about that. It's just amazing to me that the FO thought he was a suitable full time SS.

 

I'm not sure they did. Not really. Aviles at short had "least bad option" written all over it. Remember that the alternatives were Iglesias or what we thought Ciriaco was at the start of the year (a AAAA nobody). Not a lot of good choices there.

 

Now in retrospect Ciriaco may have been a better answer. But who knows, if we'd tried Ciriaco he might have gotten exposed and left us twisting in the wind the same way Aviles did.

 

One thing for sure, anyone talking seriously about releasing Aviles in favor of Ciriaco is nuts. The difference between the two players doesn't warrant that and of the two, Aviles has been a competent (not great, but adequate) starter in the past, and Ciriaco never has.

 

Ciriaco's speed is impressive, but unless he's going to couple it with at least a slgihtly better OBP, I find myself considering that speed-without-OBP vs. Aviles' inconsistent power a total tossup, and on the whole there's probably room for both players next year.

 

They really should have spent that money they wasted on Crawford on Jose Reyes instead. If we're talking about free agency, one of the best ways to use FA is to fill holes your farm can't fill. Our farm was in a much better position to fill in at left field than it was at shortstop, especially before we traded Reddick.