6/15 @ Cubs

[FredLynn]

Even injured and slumping' date=' the Red Sox should be beating the tar out of garbage like the Cubs. I can't see them going on a sustained successful run anytime soon. 8 games in the loss column in the loss column on June 15th is not trivial. It's 8 games and going in the wrong direction.[/quote']

 

Unless we are a garbage team as well, right? I mean, we have all grown accustomed to the Sox being a winning team year after year recently, and now that they are losers, its easy to think that they are still winners and wonder why they aren't winning still. I will tell you why: because this team is "not very good this year" to quote Ryan. Hard to get into that mindset, but thats the way it is. One more game behind the leaders and I think that there is really no hope of making the playoffs. Make a move now or as us old time Sox fans used to say "wait 'till next year"....every year.

[redsoxfan3]

Even injured and slumping' date=' the Red Sox should be beating the tar out of garbage like the Cubs. I can't see them going on a sustained successful run anytime soon. 8 games in the loss column in the loss column on June 15th is not trivial. It's 8 games and going in the wrong direction.[/quote']

 

Just for the record, that is 22 straight innings that Dempster has went without giving up a run. That is pretty impressive. That is no excuse for losing this game, but at the same time you have to understand that Dempster has been dominant lately. We have faced great starting pitching against the NL teams that we have faced so far. I think we will win tomorrow against the Cubs, but I am concerned about Morales getting the start Sunday, although I think he could surprise a few people. I think it is very important that we win the next two games and get back to .500.

 

Unless we are a garbage team as well' date=' right? I mean, we have all grown accustomed to the Sox being a winning team year after year recently, and now that they are losers, its easy to think that they are still winners and wonder why they aren't winning still. I will tell you why: because this team is "not very good this year" to quote Ryan. Hard to get into that mindset, but thats the way it is. One more game behind the leaders and I think that there is really no hope of making the playoffs. Make a move now or as us old time Sox fans used to say "wait 'till next year"....every year.[/quote']

 

As of right now, we are a mediocre team. I think we are a contender if we have Ross, Ellsbury, and Crawford in the lineup. That is no guarantee, but we cannot be worse than we are right now. Pedroia, Youkilis, and Gonzalez all need to step it up. If I am going to have to see Youk play on a consistent basis, he needs to get his s*** together. Pedroia will come around. I am not too worried about him. Let's just hope it is soon. Gonzalez is a problem. I understand the power might not be there right now, but he needs to improve his average.

 

I for one am not too worried about this team at this point. We are only two games under .500 with everything that has went on this season. There are plenty of games to be played. We are going to start getting our starters back. We might even be able to get another decent starting pitcher by the trade deadline. I really want to trade Youk, but as of right now we will not get much in return.

[jung]

Outside of Ells I am not convinced that getting these guys back is going to make much of a difference unless the pitching improves relative to the teams they have to play.

 

Unless his injury lingers on I think Pedey will be better. I think Ortiz is just pressing at the moment but he will turn that around I think.

 

However if we keep getting out-pitched another hitter one way or the other is not going to make that much of a difference. I know it seems like it should but out-pitched is out-pitched. If you are not able to string together hits you can't rally unless you are good at manufacturing runs and the Sox have not really ever been good at manufacturing runs.

 

I have to believe that to have any kind of shot the Sox have to make a move that brings them a front line pitcher. Probably would have to get pretty lucky to get a front line pitcher only trading away pieces where they are strong. So it will likely take giving up something that will hurt to get it done. It was the issue going into ST and it is still the issue today.

 

Really interested to see what management does...how much they are willing to sacrifice to win or have a post season shot. To me, Sox management is going to have to have more willingness to sacrifice than they have shown so far this season.

[iortiz]

Even injured and slumping' date=' the Red Sox should be beating the tar out of garbage like the Cubs. I can't see them going on a sustained successful run anytime soon. 8 games in the loss column in the loss column on June 15th is not trivial. It's 8 games and going in the wrong direction.[/quote']

 

Hi Ted, how are you doing my friend? This is becoming even more ugly than we thought uhh!... We aint going anywhere this season... I simply dont see how we could turn back... Jeez this is the f***ing cubs we are talking about... I bet theo is happy, f*** him and f*** luccino

 

Sorry but this is f***ing pathetic.

[a700hitter]

Just for the record' date=' that is 22 straight innings that Dempster has went without giving up a run. That is pretty impressive. That is no excuse for losing this game, but at the same time you have to understand that Dempster has been dominant lately. We have faced great starting pitching against the NL teams that we have faced so far. I think we will win tomorrow against the Cubs, but I am concerned about Morales getting the start Sunday, although I think he could surprise a few people. I think it is very important that we win the next two games and get back to .500. [/quote']It's an excuse. The Yankees found a way to beat the Nationals with Gio Gonzalez who has been outstanding all year long. The Nats are a good team. The Cubs suck. Dempster or no Dempster, the Sox should beat the Cubs.

[a700hitter]

Hi Ted, how are you doing my friend? This is becoming even more ugly than we thought uhh!... We aint going anywhere this season... I simply dont see how we could turn back... Jeez this is the f***ing cubs we are talking about... I bet theo is happy, f*** him and f*** luccino

 

Sorry but this is f***ing pathetic.

I'm doing fine, but I miss having some baseball enjoyment. You are right that this has been worse than I had feared. Last place on June 15th is last place. There's no rationalizing it anymore. We are not 2 or 3 games out of first place. We are 8 games out. We will not make up that deficit with the Yankees in a couple of weeks.

[DocHolliday]

Just for the record, that is 22 straight innings that Dempster has went without giving up a run. That is pretty impressive. That is no excuse for losing this game, but at the same time you have to understand that Dempster has been dominant lately. We have faced great starting pitching against the NL teams that we have faced so far. I think we will win tomorrow against the Cubs, but I am concerned about Morales getting the start Sunday, although I think he could surprise a few people. I think it is very important that we win the next two games and get back to .500.

 

 

 

As of right now, we are a mediocre team. I think we are a contender if we have Ross, Ellsbury, and Crawford in the lineup. That is no guarantee, but we cannot be worse than we are right now. Pedroia, Youkilis, and Gonzalez all need to step it up. If I am going to have to see Youk play on a consistent basis, he needs to get his s*** together. Pedroia will come around. I am not too worried about him. Let's just hope it is soon. Gonzalez is a problem. I understand the power might not be there right now, but he needs to improve his average.

 

I for one am not too worried about this team at this point. We are only two games under .500 with everything that has went on this season. There are plenty of games to be played. We are going to start getting our starters back. We might even be able to get another decent starting pitcher by the trade deadline. I really want to trade Youk, but as of right now we will not get much in return.

Interleague play isn't going to last forever - not to mention the players who will return from the disabled list. This experiment of gonzo in right and youk at 1st is helping neither and hurting both while hurting the team as a whole more than the benefit it creates by having those 2 and Middlebrooks in the same lineup.

 

If the sox want to give gonzo any hope of figuring things out, permanently moving him back to first is the obvious move when Interleague play ends. At that point, Middlebrooks needs to play full time- whether here or at Pawtucket. Question becomes how much longer you can keep throwing Youk out there

[jung]

Given where they are compared to who they have to beat they have to sweep teams like the Cubs. We are just allowing ourselves to be lulled into the trap of just pushing the responsibility to get wins farther downstream. "Its early....we have time....etc etc.

 

We really had to do better through the period before June because the schedule was not much of a ball breaker for that period. Basically we let that go by without making ground. Now we are stuck playing teams that while not being great teams feature pitching and that is tough for the Sox. We don't have good answers for teams that feature pitching.

 

As I said earlier at least to me, at this point it boils down to better starting pitching and now I think that means not only must the SP we have pitch better relative to the pitchers that they face, but the FO must make a move that gets the Sox another good SP. I don't at all like all of this emphasis on scrambling to get out from under Youk's contract. It is petty and short sighted and not really what they need to be trying to do if the goal is winning. But then again we know that winning is on the list of goals but it would be hard to claim that it is at the top of Sox management's list.

[redsoxfan3]

Interleague play isn't going to last forever - not to mention the players who will return from the disabled list. This experiment of gonzo in right and youk at 1st is helping neither and hurting both while hurting the team as a whole more than the benefit it creates by having those 2 and Middlebrooks in the same lineup.

 

If the sox want to give gonzo any hope of figuring things out, permanently moving him back to first is the obvious move when Interleague play ends. At that point, Middlebrooks needs to play full time- whether here or at Pawtucket. Question becomes how much longer you can keep throwing Youk out there

 

I agree. Let's finish out interleage play strong. Winning the next two games and winning the Marlins series would be a huge boost to this team. Ross is coming back soon. Ells hopefully within a month (3 weeks would be nice). Crawford hopefully a month and a half. If we can keep our s*** together by the All-Star game, then that will be a plus.

 

Gonzalez needs to stay at 1B. He is slow in the OF. He can make the routine plays, but nothing more. He needs to go back to his comfort zone. I admire the fact that he is a team player and is willing to play RF. I want Middlebrooks to start regularly at 3B. It is not helping his timing at the plate by sitting almost every other game so we can watch Youk s*** his pants at the plate. Either trade Youk for almost nothing or bench his ass and let him be a backup/pinch hitter. If Youk continues to suck and Middlebrooks gets sent to AAA, then I will be pissed. I do agree with you that Middlebrooks does need to play full time in either AAA or the majors, hopefully that will be the majors.

 

It's an excuse. The Yankees found a way to beat the Nationals with Gio Gonzalez who has been outstanding all year long. The Nats are a good team. The Cubs suck. Dempster or no Dempster' date=' the Sox should beat the Cubs.[/quote']

 

Call it what you want. The Sox should beat the Cubs when Dempster is not pitching. If we lose the next two games, then that will be embarrassing. The pitching matchup was in the Cubs favor. Dempster has been solid of late. The Cubs may suck, but when Dempster is on the mound, they have a chance to win.

[FredLynn]

Interleague play isn't going to last forever - not to mention the players who will return from the disabled list. This experiment of gonzo in right and youk at 1st is helping neither and hurting both while hurting the team as a whole more than the benefit it creates by having those 2 and Middlebrooks in the same lineup.

 

If the sox want to give gonzo any hope of figuring things out, permanently moving him back to first is the obvious move when Interleague play ends. At that point, Middlebrooks needs to play full time- whether here or at Pawtucket. Question becomes how much longer you can keep throwing Youk out there

 

Don't you know that Youkilis is being "showcased" to prospective trade partners? I heard that the "Titleist" company has made an offer for him and that the Boston Disposal Service is considering doing the same.

[FredLynn]

I agree. Let's finish out interleage play strong. Winning the next two games and winning the Marlins series would be a huge boost to this team. Ross is coming back soon. Ells hopefully within a month (3 weeks would be nice). Crawford hopefully a month and a half. If we can keep our s*** together by the All-Star game, then that will be a plus.

 

Gonzalez needs to stay at 1B. He is slow in the OF. He can make the routine plays, but nothing more. He needs to go back to his comfort zone. I admire the fact that he is a team player and is willing to play RF. I want Middlebrooks to start regularly at 3B. It is not helping his timing at the plate by sitting almost every other game so we can watch Youk s*** his pants at the plate. Either trade Youk for almost nothing or bench his ass and let him be a backup/pinch hitter. If Youk continues to suck and Middlebrooks gets sent to AAA, then I will be pissed. I do agree with you that Middlebrooks does need to play full time in either AAA or the majors, hopefully that will be the majors.

 

 

 

Call it what you want. The Sox should beat the Cubs when Dempster is not pitching. If we lose the next two games, then that will be embarrassing. The pitching matchup was in the Cubs favor. Dempster has been solid of late. The Cubs may suck, but when Dempster is on the mound, they have a chance to win.

 

OK. Its an excuse. Dempster is not that good. Even if he is a decent pitcher we ought to be able to match up with him. Thats the problem: we can't match up with decent starting pitching. If we aren't hitting then the pitching has to pick up the team. But they aren't good enough to do that this year....or last year.....or the year before that. See the trend?

[redsoxfan3]

Don't you know that Youkilis is being "showcased" to prospective trade partners? I heard that the "Titleist" company has made an offer for him and that the Boston Disposal Service is considering doing the same.

 

At this point he is only decreasing his trade value by playing. Every GM in their right mind would not want to trade for him unless we pay the majority of his salary and get a s***** player or prospect in return. If a team is willing to pay the remainder of his contract and give us a bag of balls and couple broken bats in return, then I would be all for it.

[FredLynn]

At this point he is only decreasing his trade value by playing. Every GM in their right mind would not want to trade for him unless we pay the majority of his salary and get a s***** player or prospect in return. If a team is willing to pay the remainder of his contract and give us a bag of balls and couple broken bats in return' date=' then I would be all for it.[/quote']

 

On another thread there is someone who thinks that we can use Youkilis as the center piece in a trade to get Garza. While I try to respect the opinions of others here, that is not sane reasoning. Garza is a top line pitcher; Youkilis is a washed up beat up position player who is sinking faster than the Titanic. You are right: we aren't getting anyone of substance for Youkilis. Its time to give him away so we can see what Middlebrooks has in him. He is no sure thing either, having proven nothing.

[redsoxfan3]

OK. Its an excuse. Dempster is not that good. Even if he is a decent pitcher we ought to be able to match up with him. Thats the problem: we can't match up with decent starting pitching. If we aren't hitting then the pitching has to pick up the team. But they aren't good enough to do that this year....or last year.....or the year before that. See the trend?

 

His 2.11 ERA and 1.01 WHIP beg to differ. The only reason he is 3-3 is because he plays for the worst team in baseball. Dempster has been good this year. How can you say he is not that good? He has the third best ERA in baseball and is tied for the 12th best WHIP in baseball. He is one of the best pitchers in baseball. He has not given up a run in 22 innings. I hope you are not being serious saying that he is not that good. I don't know if he will be consistent all year, but right now he is one of the best pitchers in the game.

 

I actually think Dice-K did okay today (take it for what it's worth because it is the Cubs). He only gave up 3 runs. He allowed us to stay in the game. The obvious thing is that we couldn't hit. That is not the starting pitcher's problem. You can't expect Dice-K to give up no runs, especially since this is only his second start this year and he is not that good to begin with.

[redsoxfan3]

On another thread there is someone who thinks that we can use Youkilis as the center piece in a trade to get Garza. While I try to respect the opinions of others here' date=' that is not sane reasoning. Garza is a top line pitcher; Youkilis is a washed up beat up position player who is sinking faster than the Titanic. You are right: we aren't getting anyone of substance for Youkilis. Its time to give him away so we can see what Middlebrooks has in him. He is no sure thing either, having proven nothing.[/quote']

 

It is very clear he will not be the center piece of any trade. If anything he could be thrown in a trade, but he will never be a center piece hitting in the .210's. If we could get Garza for Youk and a couple of prospects, then let's do it, but that is unrealistic. I completely agree with you about Youk. He is injury prone and has done nothing but suck this year. I also agree with you about Middlebrooks. No one knows if he will be able to hit consistently in the majors, but I sure as hell would rather find out if he can rather than watch Youk start at 3B. Middlebrooks can't do any worse than Youk.

[jung]

The Sox have not built a team with sufficient starting pitching. That is not dice's fault. However they are being beaten by teams that if anything are weaker offensively than they are. Those teams do however have better pitching.

 

Their pitchers control our hitters sufficiently to prevent runs. Our pitchers do not control their hitters sufficiently to prevent runs.

[a700hitter]

Call it what you want. The Sox should beat the Cubs when Dempster is not pitching. If we lose the next two games, then that will be embarrassing. The pitching matchup was in the Cubs favor. Dempster has been solid of late. The Cubs may suck, but when Dempster is on the mound, they have a chance to win.

Good teams can beat good pitchers, and Dempster is not that good. 7 of those 22 innings are against the Red Sox. 15 scoreless innings doesn't indicate dominance, especially since it was accumulated against two below average major league offenses (Mil and Min). In his start before that, he gave up 6 runs in 4 inn to another pathetic offense- San Diego

[redsoxfan3]

The Sox have not built a team with sufficient starting pitching. That is not dice's fault. However they are being beaten by teams that if anything are weaker offensively than they are. Those teams do however have better pitching.

 

Their pitchers control our hitters sufficiently to prevent runs. Our pitchers do not control their hitters sufficiently to prevent runs.

 

I think that is one thing that the majority of us here agree on. We all knew that starting pitching was a priority going into the season. Instead we had to go through the Bard experiment instead of getting an established starter. We got lucky with Doubront. He has been a pleasant surprise. The problem is that the majority of teams in baseball have better pitching than us. We are fortunate to only be two games under .500.

[redsoxfan3]

Good teams can beat good pitchers' date=' and Dempster is not that good. 7 of those 22 innings are against the Red Sox. 15 scoreless innings doesn't indicate dominance, especially since it was accumulated against two below average major league offenses (Mil and Min). In his start before that, he gave up 6 runs in 4 inn to another pathetic offense- San Diego[/quote']

 

The problem there is that you said good teams. We are nothing better than mediocre right now. We are getting exposed offensively by facing decent starting pitching since interleague play has started.

[a700hitter]

I think that is one thing that the majority of us here agree on. We all knew that starting pitching was a priority going into the season. Instead we had to go through the Bard experiment instead of getting an established starter. We got lucky with Doubront. He has been a pleasant surprise. The problem is that the majority of teams in baseball have better pitching than us. We are fortunate to only be two games under .500.

Yep, but i am not sure that I agree that we are fortunate to be 2 games under .500 at a time of year when we should be 10 games over .500.

[a700hitter]

The problem there is that you said good teams. We are nothing better than mediocre right now. We are getting exposed offensively by facing decent starting pitching since interleague play has started.

This is true. The conclusion is that the Sox are not a good team, and they will not be one anytime soon.

[redsoxfan3]

Yep' date=' but i am not sure that I agree that we are fortunate to be 2 games under .500 at a time of year when we should be 10 games over .500.[/quote']

 

I can understand that. I expected us to be about 10 games over as well. I guess my only thought is that with all of the injuries, the bad start to the season, playing horrible since interleague play, etc. that I am surprised we are not doing worse. This team has been horrible as of late.

[redsoxfan3]

This is true. The conclusion is that the Sox are not a good team' date=' and they will not be one anytime soon.[/quote']

 

Agreed. Miracles do happen, but we need something drastic to happen. If things stay the way they are, we will be lucky to win 80 games.

[a700hitter]

Agreed. Miracles do happen' date=' but we need something drastic to happen. If things stay the way they are, we will be lucky to win 80 games.[/quote']Some sports radio Talk Show guy in NY after the second game of the season predicted that the Sox would not play .500 ball and not make the playoffs. At the time, I didn't think much of it, but it is becoming pretty obvious that like he said, "the Red Sox are just not a good team."

[a700hitter]

Even better news. Beckett is not starting on Sunday due to shoulder inflammation. Franklin Morales gets the spot start.

Josh Beckett scratched from his start on Sunday

Globe Staff June 15, 2012 05:47 PM

 

By Peter Abraham, Globe Staff

 

CHICAGO — More trouble for the Red Sox. Josh Beckett has been scratched from his start on Sunday night against the Cubs because of shoulder inflammation.

 

The righthander has not been placed on the disabled list. Manager Bobby Valentine said he did not believe the injury was serious but that Beckett would probably be getting tests.

 

"Training room thinks that it’s best that he rests it a little. He may get some tests. I think they want to do a baseline [test] and figure out where we are with that whole situation. So there may be a test," Valentine said.

 

Beckett is 4-7 with a 4.14 ERA in 12 starts. He has gone 15 innings in his last two starts and shown no apparent signs of injury.

 

"For now," Valentine said when asked if Beckett would stay on the roster. "Don’t think it’s serious. He’ll be pitching again, that’s for sure.

 

Beckett missed a start on May 5 because of a strained lat muscle.

 

Franklin Morales, who last started a major league game in 2009, will start in Beckett's place. Morales has been used in long relief in his last two appearances, going 4.1 and then 3 innings. He has not thrown more than 52 pitches in a game.

The princess and the pea is obsessing about his health again. He'll no doubt shut himself down for about a month even if the Docs give him a clean bill of health. f*** him. We should have traded him before the season started. I had disagreed with that sentiment at the time, but I think they were right.

[jung]

While there are many talented Sox players individually, they don't really play well as a team. That really does seem to be something that has an impact when they can't rely on somebody or a bunch of somebodies to bang out three run homers.

 

If this team has to push runs across, it is almost like a constipated effort. It seems to take enormous effort for them to squeeze out one stinking lousy run. How many times just in the past week have they been daydreaming on the base paths. Sweeney got picked off the other night. Aviles got caught wandering off second when he was already in scoring position today. AGons was napping over at first a few nights ago when he could easily have taken second base. Did not have an eventual impact on the game but he still should have had second base breaking up the force play.

 

So not only is their pitching not up to the task, they just don't play baseball the way it needs to be played in low scoring games. They rarely pull off successful sacrifices, rarely make smart plays on the base paths, are not good at situational hitting as has been discussed in the past. It is just not a cohesive team effort. I wish it was but wishing it won't make it so.

 

So no question in my mind that they have to get another pitcher at least. Don't know what will happen after that but they have to pitch better and then have to find way to keep pace with what frankly is often a pretty anemic effort by the teams they are playing.

 

While you could say that three runs should have been a deficit that the Sox should have overcome, today was a good example of what can happen when you cannot keep pace by pushing runs across. Did the Sox not look like they were trying to hit a 4 run home run all day long, even when they did not have more than one runner on base?

[iortiz]

Guys, let's no fool ourselves, this team sucks, period. As pumpsie said. Let's admit this is a bridge year. Luccino, shut the f*** up. Stop lying fans. Let WM play for God's sake. Sorry but get rid of all the garbage, D-K, Youk, D-Mac, Etc. Let your young players play and put a better team next year.

[FredLynn]

Guys' date=' let's no fool ourselves, this team sucks, period. As pumpsie said. Let's admit this is a bridge year. Luccino, shut the f*** up. Stop lying fans. Let WM play for God's sake. Sorry but get rid of all the garbage, D-K, Youk, D-Mac, Etc. Let your young players play and put a better team next year.[/quote']

 

Thanks Ortiz, but this team really doesn't suck. They are, in reality, the definition of mediocrity. Not horrible; certainly not good. Not particularly talented either. They are quite ordinary. We have come to expect more, but we haven't had it for years.

[FredLynn]

His 2.11 ERA and 1.01 WHIP beg to differ. The only reason he is 3-3 is because he plays for the worst team in baseball. Dempster has been good this year. How can you say he is not that good? He has the third best ERA in baseball and is tied for the 12th best WHIP in baseball. He is one of the best pitchers in baseball. He has not given up a run in 22 innings. I hope you are not being serious saying that he is not that good. I don't know if he will be consistent all year, but right now he is one of the best pitchers in the game.

 

I actually think Dice-K did okay today (take it for what it's worth because it is the Cubs). He only gave up 3 runs. He allowed us to stay in the game. The obvious thing is that we couldn't hit. That is not the starting pitcher's problem. You can't expect Dice-K to give up no runs, especially since this is only his second start this year and he is not that good to begin with.

 

The Yankees found a way to beat Gio Gonzalez. We didn't. We didn't even get a single run off Dempster. We just took the day off. These are the Cubs; we should be beating them like a rug.....if we had a good team, that is.

[SoxFanForsyth]

Kalish went yard. Again. He's now hitting .394 with a 1.305 OPS, 4 HR. With the offense as bad as it's been lately, it may be about time to bring him up on Tuesday/Wednesday when he's available.