6/11 Sox go fishing (vs Marlins)

[Bellhorn04]

I have to say, the Youkilis situation has turned into just one more major headache for this team. There were some good signs for a while but now his bat has gone stone cold dead again. Meanwhile Middlebrooks has no idea day to day if he's going to be in the lineup. It's quickly become a dismal situation. Maybe the Red Sox don't want to be embarrassed by how little they're going to get for Youk.

[redsoxfan3]

I also have to work tonight. I would have gone to all 3 if I could. I'll be there tomorrow night as well. Look for the loudest black guy in the stadium screaming his ass off with a red Pedroia shirt. The stadium imo sucks. Yeah it's nice but the colors look like a damn rainbow. The HR feature was just a piece of s***. I also hate most Miami fans so I'm bound to have someone get mad at me. Where are your seats?

 

Edit:parking sucks anywhere in Miami. Tickets for parking are about 15 bucks.

 

Bullpen Reserved 40 right next to the Red Sox bullpen. What about you?

[Elktonnick]

I have to say' date=' the Youkilis situation has turned into just one more major headache for this team. There were some good signs for a while but now his bat has gone stone cold dead again. Meanwhile Middlebrooks has no idea day to day if he's going to be in the lineup. It's quickly become a dismal situation. Maybe the Red Sox don't want to be embarrassed by how little they're going to get for Youk.[/quote']

 

None of this would be an issue if they had dumped Youk during the off season as we suggested. Plus his antics last night were awful, he is a detriment

[evilhand]

You are still missing the point.

 

I'm not missing your point, I just disagree with it. The umpiring is an enormous problem in baseball and it needs to change. I completely understand teams, players and managers who are frustrated by this and wish more of them would speak up. Jim Leyland did this during the series against the Sox. And he was justified. He's one of the most respected managers in the game. Was he "showing off his intellectual powers"?

 

Again, being at a disadvantage is no reason not to fight something that is wrong. Change is slow and difficult, but it doesn't happen if people don't force it to happen.

 

Because while they are a uesful tool' date=' they obscure the real issues afffecting performance and results. The Red Sox are a prime example. Their over devotion and worship at the shrine of sabermtrics has led to the disaster that is the 2012 team. I have James's book and several others and am quite familar with all the sabermetric tools. I just think in the end baseball teams win or lose because of factors that over devoltion to stats obscure. Youk previous stats are meaningless because he is not the player he was. Watching him play every day tells me that.[/quote']

 

A sabermetric approach is what led to the championships in 2004 and 2007. Most teams employ this approach in addition to traditional scouting. You won't find a single champion in the last decade that doesn't use advanced metrics to build their roster and adjust during the season.

 

The "my eyes tell me" approach is outdated and ineffectual and your positions on several things are great evidence of that. Dumping Youk at the low point in his value (last off season his value was lower than it had ever been before) for fear that an elite bat, good glove player who is only 33 will never regain his form is crazy. Shouting at the skies that he's cooked because your eyes tell you so while ignoring the larger sample of evidence because it disagrees with your eyes is exactly the kind of approach that would sink this organization for an extended period of time.

 

When Youk turns it around, and he will, I expect to see you at the front of the line to eat your crow. I'll be waiting with a spoonful for you.

[a700hitter]

V is making a fool out of himself now....."pitchers are now throwing pitches with so much late breaking stuff that humans can no longer successfully call balls and strikes"....are you out of you f***ing mind V.

 

Please shut up and get your team under control cause pretty soon you guys are going to make enemies of the umps and you don't like the calls now....wait till you cross that bridge...shut up and play ball.

I disagree. Shining a bright light on the umps will not hurt his team. Billy Martin always had the umps on their toes, because he was always in their face and criticizing him. I don't think criticizing the umps will hurt or help their performance. It's no big deal if the umps don't like Bobby V. A manager doesn't need to be friends of the umps. Also, he is deflecting the attention of the press onto himself when his team is playing really s*****. That's a good thing. Finally, not only is he showing his players that he is with them on this issue, but he is showing them that he has the balls to make an issue of it. I think what he is doing is good for the team building aspect. Players galvanize around certain issues. If the umps are the issue that brrng them together so be it. All this talk about Bobby acting like a fool is foolish. If his players are with him on this, that's all that matters.

[jacksonianmarch]

I disagree. Shining a bright light on the umps will not hurt his team. Billy Martin always had the umps on their toes' date=' because he was always in their face and criticizing him. I don't think criticizing the umps will hurt or help their performance. It's no big deal if the umps don't like Bobby V. A manager doesn't need to be friends of the umps. Also, he is deflecting the attention of the press onto himself when his team is playing really s*****. That's a good thing. Finally, not only is he showing his players that he is with them on this issue, but he is showing them that he has the balls to make an issue of it. I think what he is doing is good for the team building aspect. Players galvanize around certain issues. If the umps are the issue that brrng them together so be it. All this talk about Bobby acting like a fool is foolish. If his players are with him on this, that's all that matters.[/quote']

 

Exactly, V is doing what he should be doing right now. Deflecting attention from his team onto him and a petty squabble. I dont think you guys are seeing how good he has actually been. The fact that he has taken your ramshackle bullpen and turned it into a good one while also navigating the landmines of underperformance and injury into being close to .500. Guys, if Tito was your manager right now, you'd be 10 games under

[jacksonianmarch]

Sure, but assuming none of that will get better isn't really realistic. Ross is about to start his rehab, Kalish is mashing and may get called up soon, history suggests Youk won't continue to struggle. Gonzalez is a bit of a mystery, but even if his power doesn't come back this year, he can be an effective hitter and we should expect at least some improvement going forward.

 

And while the offense may drop a bit until at least Ellsbury and Ross get back and Pedroia starts feeling better, the pitching has been improving (especially the starting rotation) which should mitigate some of that.

 

I am thinking this is the offensive correction and this is why the sox are in a tailspin. Over the last 8 games, they have scored 25 runs, which is abysmal. You have another 2-4 weeks on Ells and maybe Crawford. You have another 1-2 weeks on Ross. My guess is the correction continues until something changes, and tonight wont get any better going against Buerhle

[RedSoxfanforlife305]

Bullpen Reserved 40 right next to the Red Sox bullpen. What about you?

 

I'm just right over the concession stands. Not the highest level but not the lowest either. Can't really explain. I'm in section 225. My broke ass friends couldn't afford the seats I wanted. :thumbdown

[evilhand]

I am thinking this is the offensive correction and this is why the sox are in a tailspin. Over the last 8 games' date=' they have scored 25 runs, which is abysmal. You have another 2-4 weeks on Ells and maybe Crawford. You have another 1-2 weeks on Ross. My guess is the correction continues until something changes, and tonight wont get any better going against Buerhle[/quote']

 

I think it's a combination of replacement level guys coming back to Earth and a slump. The offense isn't as bad as it looks right now. (you're never as good as you look while hot or as bad as you look when slumping) That said, they are one of the best offenses in baseball, even with Ellsbury and Crawford on the shelf and are arguably the best if healthy. I don't know if they'll get healthy this season, so that might be a moot point, but they're better than they've looked during the slide.

[Elktonnick]

I'm not missing your point, I just disagree with it. The umpiring is an enormous problem in baseball and it needs to change. I completely understand teams, players and managers who are frustrated by this and wish more of them would speak up. Jim Leyland did this during the series against the Sox. And he was justified. He's one of the most respected managers in the game. Was he "showing off his intellectual powers"?

 

Again, being at a disadvantage is no reason not to fight something that is wrong. Change is slow and difficult, but it doesn't happen if people don't force it to happen.

 

 

 

A sabermetric approach is what led to the championships in 2004 and 2007. Most teams employ this approach in addition to traditional scouting. You won't find a single champion in the last decade that doesn't use advanced metrics to build their roster and adjust during the season.

 

The "my eyes tell me" approach is outdated and ineffectual and your positions on several things are great evidence of that. Dumping Youk at the low point in his value (last off season his value was lower than it had ever been before) for fear that an elite bat, good glove player who is only 33 will never regain his form is crazy. Shouting at the skies that he's cooked because your eyes tell you so while ignoring the larger sample of evidence because it disagrees with your eyes is exactly the kind of approach that would sink this organization for an extended period of time.

 

When Youk turns it around, and he will, I expect to see you at the front of the line to eat your crow. I'll be waiting with a spoonful for you.

 

Yes everyone may use "advanced" metrics but few over emphasize it the way the Red Sox do. The down side is the Red Sox devalue the human element which results in teams which aren't equal to the sum its parts. (I suggest you bone up on game theory) The over reliance on sabermtrics has also led to the Red Sox being hamstrung by these ridiculous contracts which have led to the current disaster.

 

As far as advanced sabermtrics being the cause of the 04 and 07 victories that is horse s***. It was a combination of Dave Robert's stolen base, a bloody sock, Mike Lowell Manny Ramirez and David Ortiz. Of these Bill James can only be cited for advising the Red Sox to sign Ortiz while that is not insignificant it isn't the single reason for the titles.

 

If Youk does turn it around, it won't be in Boston. Your overly deterministic approach is why the Red Sox are more likely to finish out of the playoffs yet again despite one of the highest payrolls in baseball.

 

I get the biggest kick out of the sabermetric crowd always willing to claim credit when there are successes but never willing to admit their failures such as the long list of dismal signings that has crippled this team from getting the right talent to win. Youklis is just the latest example of refusing to let go of a diminishing asset in the misguided notion that somehow that asset will increase in value. Investor who do that in the stock market go broke.

 

Besides when was the last time a championship team showcased a player in the hope his trade value would increase? They don't! But losers do!

[a700hitter]

101 games left. That's a pretty substantial amount of time.

If the Sox go 8-7 over the next 15 games, they'd be 37-39 to faxe the Yankees in a 4 game series. From that point on, they'd have to play .616 ball the rest of the way to win 90 games. They need to start making a run now. They can't wait until Ellsbury, Crawford and Bailey are all back at the end of July to make a move. It will be too late. They would have to play .660 ball for the last 2 months to get to 90 wins if they are at .500 at the end of July. They can't wait.

[evilhand]

Yes everyone may use "advanced" metrics but few over emphasize it the way the Red Sox do. The down side is the Red Sox devalue the human element which results in teams which aren't equal to the sum its parts. (I suggest you bone up on game theory) The over reliance on sabermtrics has also led to the Red Sox being hamstrung by these ridiculous contracts which have led to the current disaster.

 

Actually, the Lackey and Crawford signings were lamented by the sambermetrics crowds from the onset. They are both antithetical to the sabermetric approach. Lackey had steadily declining peripherals and Crawford has a skillset dependent on only one tool... speed. Both guys are an example of moving away from a sabermetric approach.

 

As far as advanced sabermtrics being the cause of the 04 and 07 victories that is horse s***. It was a combination of Dave Robert's stolen base' date=' a bloody sock, Mike Lowell Manny Ramirez and David Ortiz. Of these Bill James can only be cited for advising the Red Sox to sign Ortiz while that is not insignificant it isn't the single reason for the titles.[/quote']

 

Mike Lowell is a great example of advanced metrics telling a different story than traditional approaches. Most people in the media, and the Marlins thought he was cooked after 2005 and a simple salary dump as part of that trade. But an abnormally low BABIP, an extreme dip in HR/FB, and otherwise steady peripherals suggested it was merely a down year and that he was still a productive player.

 

As for 2004, Ortiz is a great example, but so are Millar, Mueller, Bellhorn, and Mientkiewicz. All of them were undervalued players that ended up playing a big role in that title.

 

In 2007, Drew and Pedroia (at the start of that year people still thought his ceiling was David Eckstein), were two undervalued players who made huge contributions to winning that title. Hell, people still bash on Drew as if he was horribly overrated.

 

If Youk does turn it around' date=' it won't be in Boston. Your overly deterministic approach is why the Red Sox are more likely to finish out of the playoffs yet again despite one of the highest payrolls in baseball.[/quote']

 

I already have a bet going on him, but it takes an incredibly stubborn and uninformed view to be so sure that Youk can't start hitting well again in Boston. This is, honestly, one of the most baffling stances I've seen on this site, and it seems to be spreading. Elite hitters don't just fall off the map at age 33 without an injury being the suppressor. If he's healthy, and he looks healthy again, he'll hit well.

 

I get the biggest kick out of the sabermetric crowd always willing to claim credit when there are successes but never willing to admit their failures such as the long list of dismal signings that has crippled this team from getting the right talent to win. Youklis is just the latest example of refusing to let go of a diminishing asset in the misguided notion that somehow that asset will increase in value. Investor who do that in the stock market go broke.

 

The only two signings this team has on the payroll that are big enough to be hamstringing them while also are providing no on the field value are Lackey and Crawford. Both of which, as pointed out above, are not the result of sabermetric analysis. They reek of old school mentality. Advanced metrics are used to find value where others aren't seeing it. What about the Lackey and Crawford signings fits that?

 

As for Youk, he was locked up in 2009 and had 2 MVP caliber years immediately following the signing of that deal. He was on pace for another one before getting hurt in 2011 and still brought 3.7 WAR to the table. It's not until the 4th and final year of his contract that he's having trouble contributing, and the reason for that is entirely due to an injury. That's a good signing and is a good example of advanced metrics working.

 

Youk was seen as a high OBP, low power average defense type player. People questioned whether he would be a starter because he didn't have the pop for a corner infield spot. And yet, despite Billy Beane having a hard on for him, the Sox refused to trade him because they saw value in his skillset. Value where many others did not. They got 7 straight season of .800+ OPS hitting leading into 2012, with 3 of them being above .900.

 

Textbook example of advanced metrics providing value.

 

The problem with you and your viewpoint is that you can't see anything but what's happening right now at this very moment. You are short sighted, stat adverse and stubborn about your position to a fault. You are also prone to making assumptions without adequate data to support them.

 

I've never said there is no human element to the game or that advanced metrics are the only thing teams should be relying on. I specifically mentioned that most teams employ boy sambermetrics and scouting... and scouting is still a vital part of the sport. But eschewing advanced metrics as irrelevant is idiotic and out of touch.

 

It's quite funny for you to suggest that I "bone up on game theory" above implying my knowledge base is lacking while you openly denounce a huge part of running a successful franchise and claim to know more than the front office does.

 

Besides when was the last time a championship team showcased a player in the hope his trade value would increase? They don't! But losers do!

 

The first one that comes to mind is Nomar Garciaparra, who had one more really solid year after being traded and another better than average one before injuries finally forced him to retire. He brought back a package that ended up being pretty valuable to the team, especially in the playoffs that year if I recall...

[a700hitter]

Originally Posted by Elktonnick

Besides when was the last time a championship team showcased a player in the hope his trade value would increase? They don't! But losers do!

 

The first one that comes to mind is Nomar Garciaparra' date=' who had one more really solid year after being traded and another better than average one before injuries finally forced him to retire. He brought back a package that ended up being pretty valuable to the team, especially in the playoffs that year if I recall...[/quote']So the last time it happened was 9 seasons ago.

[FredLynn]

So the last time it happened was 9 seasons ago.

 

Showcasing Youkilis to increase his trade value is like nuking your enemy to avoid war. Its highly unlikely to work in either case. In fact, its an oxymoron. Youkilis has become an appendix. Even worse than that, he is blocking Middlebrooks who sits on the bench far too frequently.

The franchise is burning up. Wonder if John Henry has a violin.

[Elktonnick]

Actually, the Lackey and Crawford signings were lamented by the sambermetrics crowds from the onset. They are both antithetical to the sabermetric approach. Lackey had steadily declining peripherals and Crawford has a skillset dependent on only one tool... speed. Both guys are an example of moving away from a sabermetric approach.

 

 

 

Mike Lowell is a great example of advanced metrics telling a different story than traditional approaches. Most people in the media, and the Marlins thought he was cooked after 2005 and a simple salary dump as part of that trade. But an abnormally low BABIP, an extreme dip in HR/FB, and otherwise steady peripherals suggested it was merely a down year and that he was still a productive player.

 

As for 2004, Ortiz is a great example, but so are Millar, Mueller, Bellhorn, and Mientkiewicz. All of them were undervalued players that ended up playing a big role in that title.

 

In 2007, Drew and Pedroia (at the start of that year people still thought his ceiling was David Eckstein), were two undervalued players who made huge contributions to winning that title. Hell, people still bash on Drew as if he was horribly overrated.

 

 

 

I already have a bet going on him, but it takes an incredibly stubborn and uninformed view to be so sure that Youk can't start hitting well again in Boston. This is, honestly, one of the most baffling stances I've seen on this site, and it seems to be spreading. Elite hitters don't just fall off the map at age 33 without an injury being the suppressor. If he's healthy, and he looks healthy again, he'll hit well.

 

 

 

The only two signings this team has on the payroll that are big enough to be hamstringing them while also are providing no on the field value are Lackey and Crawford. Both of which, as pointed out above, are not the result of sabermetric analysis. They reek of old school mentality. Advanced metrics are used to find value where others aren't seeing it. What about the Lackey and Crawford signings fits that?

 

As for Youk, he was locked up in 2009 and had 2 MVP caliber years immediately following the signing of that deal. He was on pace for another one before getting hurt in 2011 and still brought 3.7 WAR to the table. It's not until the 4th and final year of his contract that he's having trouble contributing, and the reason for that is entirely due to an injury. That's a good signing and is a good example of advanced metrics working.

 

Youk was seen as a high OBP, low power average defense type player. People questioned whether he would be a starter because he didn't have the pop for a corner infield spot. And yet, despite Billy Beane having a hard on for him, the Sox refused to trade him because they saw value in his skillset. Value where many others did not. They got 7 straight season of .800+ OPS hitting leading into 2012, with 3 of them being above .900.

 

Textbook example of advanced metrics providing value.

 

The problem with you and your viewpoint is that you can't see anything but what's happening right now at this very moment. You are short sighted, stat adverse and stubborn about your position to a fault. You are also prone to making assumptions without adequate data to support them.

 

I've never said there is no human element to the game or that advanced metrics are the only thing teams should be relying on. I specifically mentioned that most teams employ boy sambermetrics and scouting... and scouting is still a vital part of the sport. But eschewing advanced metrics as irrelevant is idiotic and out of touch.

 

It's quite funny for you to suggest that I "bone up on game theory" above implying my knowledge base is lacking while you openly denounce a huge part of running a successful franchise and claim to know more than the front office does.

 

 

 

The first one that comes to mind is Nomar Garciaparra, who had one more really solid year after being traded and another better than average one before injuries finally forced him to retire. He brought back a package that ended up being pretty valuable to the team, especially in the playoffs that year if I recall...

 

They didn't showcase him they dumped him because of his bad attitude.

 

Like I said I love the sabermetric crowd especially for its faiure to accept responsibilty for the debacle that is this team but more than willing to claim credit when things go well.

 

I live in a data driven world but I also recognize it's limitations. I have participated in advanced game theory modeling to play out real world scenarios for years. The problem with the sabermetric crowd is it all about the past to predict the future but the inherent margins of error make their models highly variable. In the final analysis they barely more accurate than the ouja board when predicting team success.

[evilhand]

So the last time it happened was 9 seasons ago.

 

The only other thing I can find that is even remotely like this is St. Louis trading Colby Rasmus in July of 2011, but he's never been the elite hitter that Youk has been. Of course, the question was pretty vague so it does fit the criteria.

 

Anyway, my larger point was that an obvious answer happened in Boston in 2004 and turned out very well for the team. Even worse, Nomar was unhappy and wanted out and was showing it, and they *still* got a good return for him.

 

It's actually a pretty good comp. Both players had extended periods of success with the team, were fan favorites who had soured a bit and were starting to suffer injuries more frequently when talks of moving them got serious. Both were injured in the first half of their last year with the team and both were closer to their decline years than their prime.

 

Granted, Nomar was 30 at the time and Youk is 33, but Youk isn't sitting out games or making public displays of his displeasure with the franchise, so those hits to value cancel each other out in this comparison.

 

Elktonnick's question was asked (and answered) as if championship teams never shop established vets with track records of success. That is clearly not true.

[Bellhorn04]

Showcasing Youkilis to increase his trade value is like nuking your enemy to avoid war. Its highly unlikely to work in either case. In fact, its an oxymoron. Youkilis has become an appendix. Even worse than that, he is blocking Middlebrooks who sits on the bench far too frequently.

The franchise is burning up. Wonder if John Henry has a violin.

 

At first squeezing Youkilis into the lineup was working OK because they were keeping WMB in there as well. Now that WMB is day-on day-off and Youk is flailing it looks like s***. Trade Youk now for whatever, get it over with.

[Elktonnick]

At first squeezing Youkilis into the lineup was working OK because they were keeping WMB in there as well. Now that WMB is day-on day-off and Youk is flailing it looks like s***. Trade Youk now for whatever' date=' get it over with.[/quote']

 

I knew you would finally see the light:D

[Elktonnick]

The only other thing I can find that is even remotely like this is St. Louis trading Colby Rasmus in July of 2011, but he's never been the elite hitter that Youk has been. Of course, the question was pretty vague so it does fit the criteria.

 

Anyway, my larger point was that an obvious answer happened in Boston in 2004 and turned out very well for the team. Even worse, Nomar was unhappy and wanted out and was showing it, and they *still* got a good return for him.

 

It's actually a pretty good comp. Both players had extended periods of success with the team, were fan favorites who had soured a bit and were starting to suffer injuries more frequently when talks of moving them got serious. Both were injured in the first half of their last year with the team and both were closer to their decline years than their prime.

 

Granted, Nomar was 30 at the time and Youk is 33, but Youk isn't sitting out games or making public displays of his displeasure with the franchise, so those hits to value cancel each other out in this comparison.

 

Elktonnick's question was asked (and answered) as if championship teams never shop established vets with track records of success. That is clearly not true.

 

 

Again with the misquote and distortion that isn't what I said. What I said was "showcase" not shop there is a difference. Showcase means playing someone to increase their trade value. Now I understand why you prefer statistics you have trouble with language (that's was snarky and I apologize in advance)

[evilhand]

They didn't showcase him they dumped him because of his bad attitude.

 

Revisionist history. They certainly traded him for his attitude, but dumped? Right. They got Minky and Cabrera for him. That isn't a dump under any definition of the word. Your disconnect with reality is quite amusing.

 

Like I said I love the sabermetric crowd especially for its faiure to accept responsibilty for the debacle that is this team but more than willing to claim credit when things go well.

 

You have a bad habit of ignoring what's posted and just repeating your assertions over and over. I just demonstrated why your claim that the team is hampered with bad contracts because of sabermetrics is patently untrue. You respond by saying "See? I was right!"

 

I live in a data driven world but I also recognize it's limitations. I have participated in advanced game theory modeling to play out real world scenarios for years. The problem with the sabermetric crowd is it all about the past to predict the future but the inherent margins of error make their models highly variable. In the final analysis they barely more accurate than the ouja board when predicting team success.

 

Back this up. Go ahead, I'll wait. Provide us with data that supports the claim that sabermetric analysis is barely more accurate than a ouja board.

 

It's claims like these that make me think you're nothing more than a troll. You blast out unsupportable opinions, and when challenged on them, just shout your opinions louder. You bring zero data or evidence to the table, insist you are right no matter what, then denounce the entirety of sabermetric analysis as being no better metaphysical woo?

 

I was right the first time. I should have just put you on ignore.

[evilhand]

Again with the misquote and distortion that isn't what I said. What I said was "showcase" not shop there is a difference. Showcase means playing someone to increase their trade value. Now I understand why you prefer statistics you have trouble with language (that's was snarky and I apologize in advance)

 

They played Nomar right up until they traded him. What's the difference between playing him an showcasing him? What's the difference between playing Youk and showcasing Youk? There isn't any. They play the guys on the roster, and in neither 2004 nor 2012 was/is the playing time solely in the hope that value increases.

 

Framing the question this way is disingenuous.

 

I really need to find the ignore button...

 

Edit: Never mind. Found it.

[Bellhorn04]

evilhand, man, I like your stuff, but don't lose your cool. I argue with Elktonnick quite a bit myself. He's certainly not a troll. Troll is a very strong word.

[SoxFanForsyth]

They played Nomar right up until they traded him. What's the difference between playing him an showcasing him? What's the difference between playing Youk and showcasing Youk? There isn't any. They play the guys on the roster, and in neither 2004 nor 2012 was/is the playing time solely in the hope that value increases.

 

Framing the question this way is disingenuous.

 

I really need to find the ignore button...

 

Edit: Never mind. Found it.

 

Nomar was hitting .321/.367/.500/.867 when they traded him.

 

Youkilis is hitting .231/.314/.372/.686.

 

Nomar was still helping the team win. Youkilis is blocking a kid who plays better defense and has an OPS 173 points higher than him.

 

Plain and simple. Middlebrooks is a huge asset, a middle of the order bat. Youkilis is becoming (or has become) a liability. I understand you may be a big Youkilis fan, but it doesn't take a lot to realize that he's a below average player.

 

Youkilis: -0.1 WAR

Middlebroos: 0.6 WAR

 

And WAR is dependent on Games Played, which Youkilis has played more games (36 to 31).

 

It's not a decision. Middlebrooks is your everyday 3B. That's it. That's the answer to the Youk vs WMB conundrum.

[SoxFanForsyth]

The only other thing I can find that is even remotely like this is St. Louis trading Colby Rasmus in July of 2011, but he's never been the elite hitter that Youk has been. Of course, the question was pretty vague so it does fit the criteria.

 

Anyway, my larger point was that an obvious answer happened in Boston in 2004 and turned out very well for the team. Even worse, Nomar was unhappy and wanted out and was showing it, and they *still* got a good return for him.

 

Nomar was still a good player when they traded him. Youkilis is not a good player anymore. I'm not sure what you can look at to prove that he is. He's been very bad since last July.

 

Plus, Nomar played 156 games in each of the preceding two seasons before being traded. Youkilis has averaged about 110 in the past 2 seasons.

[jung]

Unfortunately, now that the Sox have run into some guys that can actually pitch, Youk has looked more like our slumping subs than a star everyday player.

 

I applaud Youk for finding a way to lay off sliders heading for the first base dugout but he still can't hit the ones he should be swinging at and has once again fallen off a cliff edge at the plate.

 

If I were another team looking at Youk, the Sox would now be forced to point to Youk's past glories and I would be forced to point out his more recent record of accomplishment. I don't see many takers on the past glories.

 

I suppose the Sox could wait till the trade deadline but they need WMB in the lineup if they are to make anything of this year. Continuing to play Youk is beginning to smack of throwing in the towel on the year in an effort to salvage something on Youk. The Sox already have to many holes in the lineup especially when facing the teams that actually can pitch.

[jung]

As for the discussion about the umps....are you guys reading challenged or what? I have said several times now that V should point out the problem...highlight the problem till hell freezes over for all I care....Do not point to solutions that have implications for taking food off the umps tables cause that takes you from highlighting the problem to starting a war he can't win and should not drag his organization into. Highlight the problem....it is the league's job to come up with the solution.

 

On top of that he assures himself of being ignored if and when the league actually does put together a panel to study the problem and suggest solutions. They won't put one of the combatants on a judicial panel. If he really wanted to do something instead of showing off sandwich wrap brain he would have been positioning himself to do so instead of insuring that he will be ignored.

 

On top of that, at this point V needs to concern himself with keeping a brawl from breaking out between his team and the ump crews because it got very close to that last night.

[FredLynn]

Nomar was hitting .321/.367/.500/.867 when they traded him.

 

Youkilis is hitting .231/.314/.372/.686.

 

Nomar was still helping the team win. Youkilis is blocking a kid who plays better defense and has an OPS 173 points higher than him.

 

Plain and simple. Middlebrooks is a huge asset, a middle of the order bat. Youkilis is becoming (or has become) a liability. I understand you may be a big Youkilis fan, but it doesn't take a lot to realize that he's a below average player.

 

Youkilis: -0.1 WAR

Middlebroos: 0.6 WAR

 

And WAR is dependent on Games Played, which Youkilis has played more games (36 to 31).

 

It's not a decision. Middlebrooks is your everyday 3B. That's it. That's the answer to the Youk vs WMB conundrum.

 

I agree with you about that, and I also hope that everyone realizes that Middlebrooks, while full of potential, is no sure thing to stick in the ML. He is still a rookie and he will have to learn a lot about what it takes to play 3B, plate discipline, and how to conduct himself in a professional manner. One good thing: I haven't seen him whining about balls and strikes like so many of his teamates. That is refreshing.

[a700hitter]

As for the discussion about the umps....are you guys reading challenged or what? I have said several times now that V should point out the problem...highlight the problem till hell freezes over for all I care....Do not point to solutions that have implications for taking food off the umps tables cause that takes you from highlighting the problem to starting a war he can't win and should not drag his organization into. Highlight the problem....it is the league's job to come up with the solution.

 

On top of that he assures himself of being ignored if and when the league actually does put together a panel to study the problem and suggest solutions. They won't put one of the combatants on a judicial panel. If he really wanted to do something instead of showing off sandwich wrap brain he would have been positioning himself to do so instead of insuring that he will be ignored.

 

On top of that, at this point V needs to concern himself with keeping a brawl from breaking out between his team and the ump crews because it got very close to that last night.

I am not quite sure that I see the distinction you are making. It is okay to point out the problem, but not propose a solution? Taking food off the umps' tables? Do we really care about that? Throughout history technology has eliminated far more than 60 umpire jobs. If they are no longer necessary, good riddance. As far as Bobby being on the panel to discuss the solution, maybe he doesn't want to be part of that and the recent remarks were just meant to be a distraction. I'm not sure that your distinction is important. Also, I am not worried about an umpire - player brawl. Youk is all bark and no bite.

[evilhand]

Nomar was still a good player when they traded him. Youkilis is not a good player anymore. I'm not sure what you can look at to prove that he is. He's been very bad since last July.

 

Plus, Nomar played 156 games in each of the preceding two seasons before being traded. Youkilis has averaged about 110 in the past 2 seasons.

 

As I've pointed out multiple times in multiple threads, the sample of play from July until the middle of May has zero value in discussing whether Youk can play while healthy or not. He was hurt during that period, of course he didn't play well. Saying he's been bad while ignoring that fact is sloppy.

 

If he doesn't improve his OPS before the ASB, you'll have a sample large enough to at least start making that guess, but stating that it's WMB and it's over, no more discussion required simply not supportable.

 

Elite hitters don't just lose the ability to hit out of nowhere in their early thirties. When is the last time an MVP caliber player went from MVP caliber production to a .600 OPS in the course of less than a season?

 

The hate for Youk on this board is ridiculous. I get that the shiny new toy is shiny and... well, shiny, but Youk has a long track record of being an elite bat. 18 games since returning from injury is not even close to a large enough sample to declare him cooked. The data from July until mid May is worthless because he was playing hurt.

 

Again, if you want to argue he can't stay healthy, that's different. But arguing he's not a good player is preposterous.

[Bellhorn04]

I have no hate for Youk whatsoever. But I think everyone agrees there's no chance he's with Boston beyond this year, so it's just a question of when he should be traded.