2012 Catch-All Trade Deadline Thread

[Youk Of The Nation]

There are not enough languages in the world to say 'no' in. Imagine me saying 'no' in every existing language, every extinct language, every fictional language, every variation of sign language, telepathically, and in Morse Code.

[Cocos Disciples]

I don't want to watch Ortiz on a horse parading around Yankee Stadium. Definitely no.

[jung]

No....and why would the Sox trade him within the division to their division rivals. The only way the Sox would consider that would be if the Yanks were going to give them so much back that it was a slam dunk, lopsided, Boston wins deal and the Yanks are not going to do that.

 

So I really do not even think it is something anybody has to worry about or think about.

[Bellhorn04]

No thanks. My head would explode if I ever saw Ortiz in pinstripes knocking balls into the RF porch and celebrating with A-Rod in the dugout.

[Emmz]

Jacko's just being sadistic.

[Palodios]

I have a proposition for sox fans here...

 

Lets say the sox are out of it by the deadline. The sox flounder around .500 while they are 12 back of the Yankees and are really not showing much life at all. Assume they are sellers and David Ortiz is your best trade chip.

 

Would you deal Ortiz to the Yankees if the Yankees offered the best package? I am not saying I want Ortiz on my team, just want to see who would and who wouldnt.

 

If they weren't the Red Sox and Yankees, this would be actually be a better fit than some realize. The Yankees don't have much of a DH right now, do they? It would fill a big need for them, and since Ortiz is only on a one year deal, they get a good bat, and stay flexible if they need to DH Arod in the future.

 

On the other hand, the Red Sox are seriously lacking pitching depth in the upper minors-- something the Yankees have a good amount of. All things considered, it would take Banuelos and either Betances or two high ceiling pitcher for me to make that trade. You don't give the Yankees a franchise player and a shot at the championship for anything less.

[Bellhorn04]

Ortiz would probably hit like a man possessed if he went to the Yankees. It would be a new surge of motivation for him. I could see him haunting us for 3 years at least. Maybe that's just my old Red Sox paranoia coming out.

[SoxSport]

Papi will retire a Red Sox. Guaranteed, unless he loses his stroke again.

[alphilip77]

Call me crazy, but (given the right circumstances) I'd do that deal in a heartbeat and here's why:

 

-If we were in fact that far out of the playoff race like Jacko said, I would be all for making trades that would help us next season and beyond. This trade would qualify as such.

-Regardless of whether Betances and Banuelos are overrated or not, we're not exactly flush with top-tier pitching prospects (save Barnes and to an extent Ranaudo), especially in the AAA level. My point being if you are presented with an oppurtunity to acquire two pitching prospect lottery tickets in exchange for 2-3 months of a DH who is in his mid 30's, you do it.

-Another thing to consider would be whether or not Ortiz even produces. For all we now, he could be shell shocked by the trade and end up hitting .220 or so during his entire stay with the Yankees. If this scenario did indeed play out, he would likely head to free agency as a 'Type A' (as a result of his stats prior to the trade). In this case Cashman would likely decline to offer Ortiz arbitration after seeing how it played out with us this past year, coupled with the club's desire to TRY (key word) to get at or below the salary cap to qualify for the benefits set to kick in in a few years.

-Following this, we could simply approach Ortiz with a 2 yr offer and either bring him back and get the Ortiz of old PLUS two pitching prospects or not sign him at all and appease the die hards and pink hats alike by saying "We tried."

 

So yeah, I'd do it.

[Bellhorn04]

Call me crazy, but (given the right circumstances) I'd do that deal in a heartbeat and here's why:

 

-If we were in fact that far out of the playoff race like Jacko said, I would be all for making trades that would help us next season and beyond. This trade would qualify as such.

-Regardless of whether Betances and Banuelos are overrated or not, we're not exactly flush with top-tier pitching prospects (save Barnes and to an extent Ranaudo), especially in the AAA level. My point being if you are presented with an oppurtunity to acquire two pitching prospect lottery tickets in exchange for 2-3 months of a DH who is in his mid 30's, you do it.

-Another thing to consider would be whether or not Ortiz even produces. For all we now, he could be shell shocked by the trade and end up hitting .220 or so during his entire stay with the Yankees. If this scenario did indeed play out, he would likely head to free agency as a 'Type A' (as a result of his stats prior to the trade). In this case Cashman would likely decline to offer Ortiz arbitration after seeing how it played out with us this past year, coupled with the club's desire to TRY (key word) to get at or below the salary cap to qualify for the benefits set to kick in in a few years.

-Following this, we could simply approach Ortiz with a 2 yr offer and either bring him back and get the Ortiz of old PLUS two pitching prospects or not sign him at all and appease the die hards and pink hats alike by saying "We tried."

 

So yeah, I'd do it.

 

OK, but approving of a trade for both of the Yankees' top pitching prospects is really staying comfortably in the hypothetical zone, cause that certainly ain't happening.

[redsoxfan3]

We need to get rid of Youkilis. I want us to get a decent 5th starter. I do not know how realistic that is because of Matsuzaka, but I do not know how he will be able to do as the season progresses. He always seems to get injured, so I would love for us to get another option. Youkilis is just a problem in my opinion. He simply sucks this year. He is injury prone. I would be content with eating the majority of his salary this year and trading him for a prospect or two, unless he could be of some value in a package to trade for a starting pitcher. I am tired of watching Middlebrooks sit because of Youk. His .219 batting average is a joke. There is no room for him on this team.

[jacksonianmarch]

If they weren't the Red Sox and Yankees, this would be actually be a better fit than some realize. The Yankees don't have much of a DH right now, do they? It would fill a big need for them, and since Ortiz is only on a one year deal, they get a good bat, and stay flexible if they need to DH Arod in the future.

 

On the other hand, the Red Sox are seriously lacking pitching depth in the upper minors-- something the Yankees have a good amount of. All things considered, it would take Banuelos and either Betances or two high ceiling pitcher for me to make that trade. You don't give the Yankees a franchise player and a shot at the championship for anything less.

 

Ibanez has been serviceable, but I am waiting for the cliff jump to occur.

[FredLynn]

If I were certain that I was screwing the Yankees I would do the trade. But I would have to be sure. Like knowing that Ortiz was injured, or raping the Yankees of their farm system for five years when Ortiz had one year of less than .780 OPS left in him. I would gladly sell the Yankees my trash as long as I was sure that it IS trash.

[wyo-sox]

Anybody watching this Parker from Oakland ? Can't help but think anyone wearing green and yellow is available to be traded.

[a700hitter]

Anybody watching this Parker from Oakland ? Can't help but think anyone wearing green and yellow is available to be traded.

He's a rookie isn't he? I don't think they would be looking to move a high performing low cost asset like him.

[jacksonianmarch]

Parker is their future and he's effectively free for the next 2 seasons. He ain't movin

[SoxFanForsyth]

I just noticed - Lavarnway is going to be 25 in August. How often do you see a 25 year old in AAA and think "This guy could be something special"? Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying he's not going to be special - I think he is. I'm saying it's ridiculous for the Red Sox to sit here and watch him rot away at AAA because we have a bit of a log jam in Boston.

 

So that brings me to my next point. Lavarnway would be a 20-25 HR catcher with a .360+ OBP. That's a pretty rare commodity coming from behind the plate, especially at such a young age.

 

If you could build a deal around Lavarnway for Matt Garza, would you do it? How much faith do you have in Salty? He seems to really be taking flight this season, although has been struggling mightily over his past 10 games.

 

Point is this. We've roadblocked Lavarnway. The team obviously believes in Salty, and rightfully so, he's going to be a guy who OPS's over .800, the majority of which comes from his SLG. Lavarnway, however, is going to be a guy who probably will have a higher OPS because of a higher OBP, but slightly lower SLG (likely around a .280/.360/.490 line, and yes, the more I type, the more I'm talking myself out of this).

 

But what do you think. Since the Sox have Swihart (ranked 72 in BA top 100) about 3-4 years away, do you keep Salty going and really bolster your pitching staff with a guy like Garza? He could very well be the difference between a PS berth this year or playing golf in October, especially if we get him early.

[jung]

I wish I could trust Salty enough to give up Lavs but would we be that surprised if Salty just had a version of 2011 in 2012? The difference is that Salty is swinging for the fences every swing this year. That is actually the best approach Salty can have for his plate appearances. So, I like it. However, at least to this point it does not appear to have made a difference as far as Salty's hot and cold hitting profile.

 

Since that disastrous defensive game for Salty, the one where Cook got injured, Salty's defense seems to have been better. He could still give his pitchers a better target and he still seems to lunge after balls in the dirt.

 

I still think we are going back in time now that the steroid era is behind us. There will be even more emphasis on pitching and defense again with the really prime defensive positions manned by guys that are not defensive liabilities. Those are SS, C and CF.

 

Non-steroid boosted baseball is baseball where you end up manufacturing more runs, pushing more runs across and preventing the other team from doing the same. Errors are more painful with less opportunity for some big boomer to come up and hit you a three run HR. In that sense maybe Lavs is still the better choice since I think most people think Lavs has more defensive upside than Salty.

 

I suppose I would not close off a discussion involving Lavs and maybe it would depend on what else they would want for Garza. Lavs alone sure as hell would not get it done.

[Spitball]

For a decent starter (even a rental like Dempster), I'd trade Lavarnway in a nano-second.

[jung]

Frankly for pitching there are quite a number of current roster Red Sox and AAA Red Sox that would not be on any sort of protected list. As far as I am concerned, Salty could also be traded. Would not trade both Lavs and Salty but if I were the Red Sox there aren't many deals that I would close my ears to completely.

[SoxFanForsyth]

Looked at the Cubs prospects.

 

Let me first say, their current big league catchers are hitting a combined .191 with an OPS under .550.

 

They have a guy named Welington Castillo, their 6th best prospect per Keith Law. Don't think he's much to talk about considering the depleted depth on the Cubs right now. He's also 25, has had a couple cups of coffee in the bigs, and didn't fare too well.

 

I could see a deal involving Lavarnway + Coyle + a mid-to-low level guy for Garza working out. I think the Sox have a bit of an advantage because of how well Theo and Hoyer know the Sox farm system.

 

They could even go with a guy like Frank Montas who throws the ball 100 mph, but is very rough and raw on the mound right now to stick in the trade.

 

Perhaps the Sox settle for a couple B level prospects for Youk, or a high ceiling, low floor/level prospect and a B level guy that the Sox could include in the deal.

 

I've read a lot that the Sox are really looking for SP right now, so Garza would fit the bill. He's a guy who isn't afraid to go out there and go right after guys rather than nibbling all the time.

 

A rotation of Lester Beckett Buchholz Garza Doubront, bullpen of Bard, Aceves, Bailey (eventually), Miller, Melancon, Albers, Padilla, and Atchison (until Bailey comes back).

 

Then you have a lineup of:

 

Ellsbury

Crawford

Pedroia

Ortiz

Gonzalez

Middlebrooks

Salty

Ross/Sweeney

Aviles

 

You pull the deal on a trade for Garza, and you get healthy. Now all of a sudden you're making a very, very serious run at the AL East, not just a WC.

[Palodios]

Looked at the Cubs prospects.

 

Let me first say, their current big league catchers are hitting a combined .191 with an OPS under .550.

 

They have a guy named Welington Castillo, their 6th best prospect per Keith Law. Don't think he's much to talk about considering the depleted depth on the Cubs right now. He's also 25, has had a couple cups of coffee in the bigs, and didn't fare too well.

 

I could see a deal involving Lavarnway + Coyle + a mid-to-low level guy for Garza working out. I think the Sox have a bit of an advantage because of how well Theo and Hoyer know the Sox farm system.

 

How long did Theo have a hard-on for Saltalamacchia? He's been hitting very well lately, perhaps he'd prefer him and another mid sized piece to Lavarnway?

[SoxSport]

Lav is still in AAA because the FO signed Shoppach for more defensive experience. And they don't change direction very easily--in case you haven't noticed.

[Spitball]

I believe Epstein is going to need to get more than just a catcher for Garza. He will have to get a package close to what Colorado received for Ubaldo Jimenez which included top pitching prospects Drew Pomeranze and Alex White along with catching prospect Matt McBride.

 

Garza is Epstein's biggest chance to infuse some talent into the Cubs' system. If he doesn't get a Jimenez type haul, he will be criticized in Chicago on radio talk shows and in sports pages. He can't start out his first opportunity by getting less than a massive haul.

 

Even with a slow start, Garza is the best pitcher on the market. In my opinion, he will command more than the Sox can afford to pay.

[SoxFanForsyth]

I believe Epstein is going to need to get more than just a catcher for Garza. He will have to get a package close to what Colorado received for Ubaldo Jimenez which included top pitching prospects Drew Pomeranze and Alex White along with catching prospect Matt McBride.

 

Garza is Epstein's biggest chance to infuse some talent into the Cubs' system. If he doesn't get a Jimenez type haul, he will be criticized in Chicago on radio talk shows and in sports pages. He can't start out his first opportunity by getting less than a massive haul.

 

Even with a slow start, Garza is the best pitcher on the market. In my opinion, he will command more than the Sox can afford to pay.

 

No chance.

 

When the Guardians acquired Ubaldo in 2011, not only was he coming off of a stellar campaign in 2010, but the biggest thing is that he was under control for 3 years. He had signed a team friendly 4 year, $10mm contract that expired in 2012 with club options in 2013 (5.75mm) and 2014 (8mm). Garza, on the other hand, is only under team control for 1 more year, and he's already making $9.5mm this year, and will go to arbitration next year.

 

The reason the Rockies got such a haul for Ubaldo was because of the cost effectiveness and years of control. The Cubs have about 1/3 of the control and about 1/3 of the cost effectiveness. A deal centered around Lavarnway would be a good haul for the Cubs.

[kapsis21]

No chance.

 

When the Guardians acquired Ubaldo in 2011, not only was he coming off of a stellar campaign in 2010, but the biggest thing is that he was under control for 3 years. He had signed a team friendly 4 year, $10mm contract that expired in 2012 with club options in 2013 (5.75mm) and 2014 (8mm). Garza, on the other hand, is only under team control for 1 more year, and he's already making $9.5mm this year, and will go to arbitration next year.

 

The reason the Rockies got such a haul for Ubaldo was because of the cost effectiveness and years of control. The Cubs have about 1/3 of the control and about 1/3 of the cost effectiveness. A deal centered around Lavarnway would be a good haul for the Cubs.

 

why give Lavarnway though, we could have the best catching tandem in Lav and Salty and they can DH at times.. if Papi decides to walk away for a better deal.

who is ready in AAA? why cant we try someone from down there for next year.

is Pimentel getting ready. i would also put it out there but Prior might be a good arm in the bullpen for 2-3 innings stretch

 

edit i am thinking about next year but you are talking about this year..

[example1]

Garza would be a nice addition to the team. I don't love the idea of giving up Lavarnway for him, but with Salty's emergence as an offensive threat, I could see Lavs and Garza being a decent match, especially if the Sox could extend him somehow.

[FredLynn]

Garza would be a nice addition to the team. I don't love the idea of giving up Lavarnway for him' date=' but with Salty's emergence as an offensive threat, I could see Lavs and Garza being a decent match, especially if the Sox could extend him somehow.[/quote']

 

There isn't room for both Salty and Lavarnway. So which catcher do we keep as our #1 catcher moving forward. Tough choice. Neither is a force defensively. Not sure what the right decision is, but I do not think it involves burying Lavarnway in AAA forever.

[SoxFanForsyth]

There isn't room for both Salty and Lavarnway. So which catcher do we keep as our #1 catcher moving forward. Tough choice. Neither is a force defensively. Not sure what the right decision is' date=' but I do not think it involves burying Lavarnway in AAA forever.[/quote']

 

Exactly, and if you have a offensively strong catcher in AAA and you can deal him for a #2 caliber SP, I would pull the trigger on that all day.

 

Offense from the catcher, especially in the NL, is very important. They already have to have their P hit, so if they can get contributions from a typically weak position (Average NL team got a .707 OPS from their C last year), then that gives them a pretty big advantage.

 

The Sox, on the other hand, have a guy in Salty who can fill the void for the next 3-4 years until Blake Swihart is ready to come up. People have compared Swihart to Buster Posey, that's how good this kids ceiling is. And he's a much better defensive catcher than Lavs is.

 

Point being - the Sox can bolster their pitching staff significantly, especially when you consider the trickle down affect of putting Bard in the bullpen, by getting rid of one of their top prospects that is potentially log jammed right now.

 

Lars Anderson has been hitting the ball well (.873 OPS), and has been playing LF in Pawtucket. Would anyone be opposed to a Lavarnway + Lars trade for Garza?? I think something like that, maybe 1 more piece like Frank Montas, could get the deal done, and done quickly and early.

[Spitball]

No chance.

 

When the Guardians acquired Ubaldo in 2011, not only was he coming off of a stellar campaign in 2010, but the biggest thing is that he was under control for 3 years. He had signed a team friendly 4 year, $10mm contract that expired in 2012 with club options in 2013 (5.75mm) and 2014 (8mm). Garza, on the other hand, is only under team control for 1 more year, and he's already making $9.5mm this year, and will go to arbitration next year.

 

The reason the Rockies got such a haul for Ubaldo was because of the cost effectiveness and years of control. The Cubs have about 1/3 of the control and about 1/3 of the cost effectiveness. A deal centered around Lavarnway would be a good haul for the Cubs.

 

But markets shift. Garza's price tag will depend on what Epstein can extract from other clubs. He won't have to look at Lavarnway and say that is a fair exchange. He will be able to go from Baltimore to the Yankees to Toronto to Boston. As odd as it seems, Epstein could hold the key to the AL East...and the future of his new team with one key player, Matt Garza.

 

One and a half years of control is still valuable, and Epstein simply has to cash in on that value, or he is better off keeping him.

 

The Cubs already depleated their farm system by sending the Rays their future shortstop, a potential top of the rotation pitcher, probably their future starting catcher and their future starting leftfielder, as well as Super Sam Fuld. Epstein has to play his best card very effectively to replentish the Cubs' farm system.

 

I believe he will have to command at least one pitcher and one position player in the #11-50 prospect range. I believe he will also have to get some very good lower level prospects with potential to develop.

 

Epstein has to score with Garza. What he brings back to his organization will be key to his early success and evaluation.