A comedy of errors

[Spudboy]

You got facts to back this up.

 

Yes, I do. He makes a s*** ton of money elsewhere and comparatively little with the Sox (with the accompanying grief) and he married a young twat.

 

He does it for glory. That should be obvious to everyone.

 

Plus she's fugly.

 

If you are a geezer and marry young, go for all the glory.

 

I know.

[Elktonnick]

I agree that Henry may be setting this franchise up for sale. Emphasis on the word MAYBE.

 

The idea is to make money in business. But there is no evidence that a sale is imminent.

 

One more thing. Henry makes his real money elsewhere. The Sox are a toy for him to use to message his ego. Like that young twat he married.

 

You don't buy a sports franchise looking to make a killing.

 

BTW I never said the sale was imminen that is an inference that was not intended. The trouble is people (including me) don't always read posts carefully and jump to conclusions hastily. And then can't or won't back down because they didn't read fully what was written.

[Elktonnick]

Henry and the ownership group bought the Sox for $380M in 2002 and the franchise is currently valued at $918M. It would likely take more to buy it right now' date=' even a heck of alot more. That is a pretty damn good return on that investment.[/quote']

 

Given the price that the Dodgers went for I think a fair estimate could be as high as 1.5 billion for the Red Sox. I don't know the details of Dodger's TV contract but the Red Sox own the ball park (unlike a lot of teams) and own 80% of NESN. They also have one of the largest radio networks in baseball .

[jung]

In fact I just found the 2012 valuation for the Sox at topping $1B so a sell price of $1.5B even today is not at all unlikely.

[Spudboy]

BTW I never said the sale was imminen that is an inference that was not intended. The trouble is people (including me) don't always read posts carefully and jump to conclusions hastily. And then can't or won't back down because they didn't read fully what was written.

 

I did see that you stated in a LATER post that you believed that a sale could happen in about three years. So yes, I can read.

[Spudboy]

Given the price that the Dodgers went for I think a fair estimate could be as high as 1.5 billion for the Red Sox. I don't know the details of Dodger's TV contract but the Red Sox own the ball park (unlike a lot of teams) and own 80% of NESN. They also have one of the largest radio networks in baseball .

 

In fact I just found the 2012 valuation for the Sox at topping $1B so a sell price of $1.5B even today is not at all unlikely.

 

See, this is what I was asking for. I did not know this.

[Elktonnick]

I did see that you stated in a LATER post that you believed that a sale could happen in about three years. So yes' date=' I can read.[/quote']

 

Here is what I said in my original post "I have been saying for months that JH is setting it up to sell the Red Sox. He clearly is having problems managing both Liverpool and Boston. There is ample reporting on the problems with the Liverpool Reds in the British press which seem to mirror those in Boston. I think from a strictly business prospective he has taken the Boston franchise as far as it can go in terms of revenue and increased value of the franchise. Whereas there is greater possibility for increasing profit and franchise value from an English premier league football team. So if one is strictly interested in maximizing return, I'd say I would pay more attention to Liverpool than in the Red Sox if I were in his shoes. "

 

How anyone could infer from that post that I thought the sale was imminent is beyond me. Nor how any fair minded reader could conclude that it was anything else but my opinion is also beyond me. I said there was ample reporting on the troubles in Liverpool and was called a liar even after I produced the article. Excuse me if I conclude that there are folks who are more intersted in insulting or criticizing another poster than a reasonable discussion.

[jung]

For my part Elk I was not responding to your post. As I recall, your context was not the organization ignoring the Sox and my post was made to offer that ignoring the asset and preparing to go into a sales process are sort of at opposite ends of the spectrum.

[Elktonnick]

For my part Elk I was not responding to your post. As I recall' date=' your context was not the organization ignoring the Sox and my post was made to offer that ignoring the asset and preparing to go into a sales process are sort of at opposite ends of the spectrum.[/quote']

 

My whole point is that JH is making moves to set up the Sox to make it more attractive for some else to buy. This includes such strategic moves as no long term FA contracts etc.

 

The problems in both Liverpool and Boston seem to follow a simliar pattern. That is the principal (John Henry) is spread too thin. His attention to detail is not there. This is demonstrated that he hadn't talked to Lucchino after his conversation with Francona, his not calling Francona, his apparently being unaware of the details around Theo's invitation or non invitation to the anniversary. etc.

 

Based on my experiencing selling assets, one may lose interest in the asset as a long term investment because one doesn't have the time to manage it oir use it effeectively that does not mean that one ignores the preparations needed to prepare that asset for sale. I equate it to the process one goes through when seliing a vacaction home or a luxury boat. Of course the scale of selling a luxury boat or vacation home is not the same as that of selling a billion dollar asset but it is a good analogy to illustrate my point..

[ibot2much]

Remember it was you in this thread who first raised the question of whther JH was losing interst in the RS' date=' if I am not mistaken.[/quote']

 

Yea I did

 

That is my opinion

[ibot2much]

TRUE!!!

 

But when someone states their opinion ON THIS board, well, they better be able to substantiate it with FACTS.

 

It is Talksox law.

 

You got a link for that ?

[ibot2much]

Yes, I do. He makes a s*** ton of money elsewhere and comparatively little with the Sox (with the accompanying grief) and he married a young twat.

 

He does it for glory. That should be obvious to everyone.

 

Plus she's fugly.

 

If you are a geezer and marry young, go for all the glory.

 

I know.

I asked for facts and got more opinion

[VA Sox Fan]

This thread has turned into crap. But then again, it started out as crap.

 

Sorry I don't have any facts to back up my OPINION.

[Bellhorn04]

My whole point is that JH is making moves to set up the Sox to make it more attractive for some else to buy. This includes such strategic moves as no long term FA contracts etc.

 

Huh? I don't see where you're getting that from at all. Last year they entered into two of the longest and most expensive contracts in team history. This year they didn't have any payroll room left to make any big deals.

[VA Sox Fan]

Huh? I don't see where you're getting that from at all. Last year they entered into two of the longest and most expensive contracts in team history. This year they didn't have any payroll room left to make any big deals.

 

Huh? Indeed. I don't get it. Guess I never will. Makes me sad about how some of the fan base has evolved. It's pretty embarassing.

[Elktonnick]

Huh? Indeed. I don't get it. Guess I never will. Makes me sad about how some of the fan base has evolved. It's pretty embarassing.

 

Lady i was a fan before you were born!! If the fan base has "evolved" for the worse then it isn't my fault. BTW I appreciate the gratutous insults, obviously the conduct of a higher evolved being. Thank you for sharing your useful insights. They add greatly to the discussion.

[Elktonnick]

Huh? I don't see where you're getting that from at all. Last year they entered into two of the longest and most expensive contracts in team history. This year they didn't have any payroll room left to make any big deals.

 

This year they made a strategic choice and a marked change in direction and philosophy after they bought Liverpool I believe exactly my point.

[VA Sox Fan]

Lady i was a fan before you were born!! If the fan base has "evolved" for the worse then it isn't my fault. BTW I appreciate the gratutous insults' date=' obviously the conduct of a higher evolved being. Thank you for sharing your useful insights. They add greatly to the discussion.[/quote']

 

I am well aware you were I fan before I was born as I was born in 1964. (Don't listen to my friend a700, he will say it was 1924 )

 

So, I guess you are the only member of the fanbase I refer to?

 

Insults? Where? It was a general observation. Relax a little.

 

Don't believe all that you read. Mazz is not the answer.

 

Peace.

[User Name]

This year they made a strategic choice and a marked change in direction and philosophy after they bought Liverpool I believe exactly my point.

 

This makes no sense. The payroll's at the highest its ever been, and last year, after buying Liverpool, they spent a s*** ton of money.

 

They're also not the only team scrambling to get under the lux tax. So that conspiracy theory holds no water.

[Bellhorn04]

This year they made a strategic choice and a marked change in direction and philosophy after they bought Liverpool I believe exactly my point.

 

You're trying to make the facts fit your theory. If not splurging in a particular year is indicative of an intention to sell, then the Steinbrenners must be doing the same because they didn't add any big contracts this year either. Like the Red Sox they maintained their total payroll at roughly the same as it was for 2011.

[Elktonnick]

I am well aware you were I fan before I was born as I was born in 1964. (Don't listen to my friend a700, he will say it was 1924 )

 

So, I guess you are the only member of the fanbase I refer to?

 

Insults? Where? It was a general observation. Relax a little.

 

Don't believe all that you read. Mazz is not the answer.

 

Peace.

 

It was a gratutous insulting remark which added nothing to the discussion. Disagree if you must but you should try and do so in a way that doesn't deprecate others needlessly. It is unbecoming.

 

BTW I read far more than Massarotti.

[VA Sox Fan]

It was a gratutous insulting remark which added nothing to the discussion. Disagree if you must but you should try and do so in a way that doesn't deprecate others needlessly. It is unbecoming.

 

BTW I read far more than Massarotti.

 

 

Good for you.

 

I am sorry that I don't add anything out here. Guess I should stop posting as I don't add anything. Thank you for the advice. Don't want to offend you and others that read a general observation as needless deprecation.

[Elktonnick]

You're trying to make the facts fit your theory. If not splurging in a particular year is indicative of an intention to sell' date=' then the Steinbrenners must be doing the same because they didn't add any big contracts this year either. Like the Red Sox they maintained their total payroll at roughly the same as it was for 2011.[/quote']

 

That what analysis is. Coming up with a theory that fits all the facts. It isn't just the change in strategic direction by reducing long term contracts It is also Henry's pattern of behavior to wit:

 

"After acquiring his fortune, his first foray into professional sports was in purchasing a AAA minor league team – the Tucson Toros of the Pacific Coast League in 1989. He was also one of the founders of the Senior Professional Baseball Association (a winter league in Florida composed of retired Major League players). Henry co-owned the winning team in 1989–1990 – the West Palm Beach Tropics managed by former Boston Red Sox Impossible Dream (1967) manager, Dick Williams. He sold his interest in 1990 and the league went out of business the following year. In 1990, Henry negotiated to purchase the Orlando Magic NBA team, for a short time was the lead general for an expansion team which became the Colorado Rockies, headed a group attempting to land an NHL expansion bid for South Florida which ended up going to Tampa Bay, pre-dating South Florida's more successful NHL expansion bid soon after by Wayne Huizenga. Subsequently, Henry negotiated to buy the Miami Heat and later the New Jersey Nets.

 

Henry entered Major League Baseball with his purchase of a small interest in the New York Yankees in 1991. Henry became the sole owner of the Florida Marlins in 1999, purchasing the Major League club from Huizenga for a reported $158,000,000. In January 2002 Henry sold the Marlins in a multi-franchise deal to Jeffrey Loria then owner of the Montreal Expos (now the Washington Nationals).

 

Such a move would be entirely consistent with how he has operated over the past 20 plus years

[jung]

Well how many years would JH be unwilling to sign long term contracts? That honestly does not make sense. So Henry is not necessarily interested in selling the team near term but is going to reject any activity on long term contracts in an effort to prepare the team for sale. How many years could a team possibly go without signing any long term contracts and remain competitive? Plus if I were a perspective buyer I would not be concerned about long term contracts as much as I would be concerned about long term contracts that were s*** contracts. That horse has already left the barn.

[Bellhorn04]

Henry owned the Marlins for 3 years. He's been Red Sox owner for 10 years. He could have sold the team for a big profit several years ago. If anything, there's evidence that the Red Sox are different for him.

[VA Sox Fan]

Henry owned the Marlins for 3 years. He's been Red Sox owner for 10 years. He could have sold the team for a big profit several years ago. If anything' date=' there's evidence that the Red Sox are different for him.[/quote']

 

Makes sense to me.

[jung]

He could have sold the team for a big profit several years ago. If anything, there's evidence that the Red Sox are different for him.

 

I would not look at the term or the amount he could have sold the club for some number of years ago as significant in this case. The kind of big number, really impressive asset realization possibilities have not been there until pretty recently.

 

To be honest if I had to guess, I would guess that owning a baseball team as a toy or as a point of pride or whatever pails in comparison to turning a really big money asset realization deal for the JH's of the world. That is there sport of choice. That is not to say he will sell the team tomorrow. But don't kid yourselves. JH is not Tom Yawkey or anything like Tom Yawkey or even George S for that matter. When he finally does turn the Sox whenever that day is, he is going have a boner that will make Viagra look like a placebo.

[Elktonnick]

Henry owned the Marlins for 3 years. He's been Red Sox owner for 10 years. He could have sold the team for a big profit several years ago. If anything' date=' there's evidence that the Red Sox are different for him.[/quote']

 

That may be true except here is a quote from a March 20 2006 article in Business week on John Henry's Investment Co. It is very illuminating:

 

JWH was established in 1981, and began taking retail clients in 1982.

 

The firm's management methods make mechanical, non-discretionary trading decisions in response to systematic determinations of reversals in each market's direction, with the explicit intention of precluding not only human emotion, but also any subjective evaluation of such things as the so-called fundamentals, to trigger each decision to be long or short each market, or not.[4]

 

Given the above , his pattern of behavior over the past few years, his recent moves with Liverpool and Boston and possible increases to the Capital Gains tax rate I believe I have a reasonable basis for my opinion that Hnery is setting the Sox up for eventual sale. The timing of which is to be determined

[jung]

Given the above , his pattern of behavior over the past few years, his recent moves with Liverpool and Boston and possible increases to the Capital Gains tax rate I believe I have a reasonable basis for my opinion that Hnery is setting the Sox up for eventual sale. The timing of which is to be determined

 

But that suggests the obvious. No ownership group goes into a new transaction these days without an exit strategy. It does not someday dawn on them that I would someday like to sell. I just don't think you can look at things like this year's lack of long term contract activity and tie that to an exit strategy.

 

I would sooner think he would delay any sales process activity until he could get any bad apples off the book and sooner think he would delay until he had answers to some of the questions that might likely arise where he to build a Transaction Book for the Sox today. But I cannot realistically look at this year's lack of activity relative to new long term contracts and tie the two together.

[Elktonnick]

Well how many years would JH be unwilling to sign long term contracts? That honestly does not make sense. So Henry is not necessarily interested in selling the team near term but is going to reject any activity on long term contracts in an effort to prepare the team for sale. How many years could a team possibly go without signing any long term contracts and remain competitive? Plus if I were a perspective buyer I would not be concerned about long term contracts as much as I would be concerned about long term contracts that were s*** contracts. That horse has already left the barn.

 

Long term liabilities would be a major concern to any buyers. JH basically has said they weren't going to pursue long term FA deals in the future except in very special cases.