Official 2012 Keep your shit together thread

[ORS]

I don't exactly see why the situations aren't comparable. They are not the same, but they are similar in that both teams have a lot of money invested in high priced talent that may or may not deliver. The Cubs were probably worse off, but not that much worse.

 

I only see 4 players meaningfully coming off the books next year: Papi, Youk, Dice, Jenks. Youk has an option. If none of them come back, then that's $43 million in capacity. However, I don't see a lot of cheap talent to step in and replace that production right away, plus we may need more than a DH and 3B during the off-season. So the team may choose to replenish the farm at the ASB this year by trading some players with value for prospects.

 

It makes a lot of sense if you're not going to make the playoffs in 2012 to trade away a Lester, Buchholz, Ellsbury, etc. if you can get top prospects back.

You don't see cheap talent to fill in for those players when their best overall prospect plays 3B, and their best hitting prospect profiles as a C/DH, both of whom are in AAA this year? And, the pitchers are sunk cost at this point, I'm certain it won't be terribly difficult to replicate Matsuzaka's and Jenks' 2012 contributions.

[The Boomer]

Really?

 

The Cubs were a horribly run team with a s***** core and awful farm system that had absolutely no chance to compete. In their worst year, the Red Sox need an epic collapse like last year's to miss the playoffs. It's not even close.

 

 

 

Which player on the Red Sox do you think they would be willing to trade that has significant value to other teams? Also, the farm doesn't need to be "replenished", it needs to be given time to churn out its current talent.

 

If all four of those guys go, there are in-house options to replace all of them (Jenks and Dice-K are already being replaced by in-house options) and that money would be enough to cover raises and spend on pitching.

 

 

 

Actually no, it really doesn't. Those guys need to be kept around as this team's core. You would sabotage the very plan you present by trading young, cost-controlled talent.

 

I'm not saying it's going to happen, but you seem to think it will never happen. If we are 12 games out at the ASB, something will happen and it won't be releasing Darnell McDonald.

[The Boomer]

You don't see cheap talent to fill in for those players when their best overall prospect plays 3B' date=' and their best hitting prospect profiles as a C/DH, both of whom are in AAA this year? And, the pitchers are sunk cost at this point, I'm certain it won't be terribly difficult to replicate Matsuzaka's and Jenks' 2012 contributions.[/quote']

 

After this year we will see if Lavs and Middlebrooks are able fill in. I don't see it today though.

[User Name]

I'm not saying it's going to happen' date=' but you seem to think it will never happen. If we are 12 games out at the ASB, something will happen and it won't be releasing Darnell McDonald.[/quote']

 

Not that it will "never" happen. Rather, it won't happen this year. They have the perfect storm of core talent, near-ready MLB talent and veterans coming off the books to make a run of it in 2013.

[The Boomer]

Not that it will "never" happen. Rather' date=' it won't happen this year. They have the perfect storm of core talent, near-ready MLB talent and veterans coming off the books to make a run of it in 2013.[/quote']

 

Assuming there's enough pitching on the market during the offseason, I agree with that. If not, some of that talent will have to be given up to get the pitching. I haven't looked at Cot's yet on that topic, but a number of arms (e.g., Cain) are already off the market.

[maximis]

Look, this weekend was bad...not many positives to take away from that series, but...but the Sox played quite possibly the best team in the league and were in position to win 2 of those games. I see 2 glaring problems with this team. Of course the bullpen and Josh Becketts attitude.

 

The bullpen: Of course Daniel Bard HAS to be brought back into the bullpen as the closer. This is a must and the sooner the better. This season isn't a dress rehearsal for Bard to see if he can be a starter so he can make more money in the long run. This is a team and this team needs him to do what he does, strikeout people in late innings. Between Padilla, Aceves and hopefully a new and improved Dice-K, the rotation can survives with this lineup. Make the move Red Sox and make it quick.

 

Josh Beckett: WTF? Can I hate a player on my favorite team as much as this guy? His piss poor I don't give a s*** attitude is old a pathetic and someone on this team has got to stand up to him and unfortunatly, I don't see one player, (maybe Pedey?) That will. Valentine still seems to be pandering to him since he took over as manager. If Beckett doesn't get his s*** straigh and lead by example, this is a cancer that will spread all season long.

 

Im not packing it in just yet folks. A 3 game sweep against Toronto, even 2 out of 3 will help immensly. The pitching matchups look favorable for Boston. We were all jumping ship last year and they turned it around, they have the ability to have a better start than last year as well. While it looks bleak...it is only 3 games. Let's go Sox!

[ORS]

After this year we will see if Lavs and Middlebrooks are able fill in. I don't see it today though.

Now you are on to a different topic, the issue of the risk inherent with change. Before you stated you didn't see cheap options available. Yes, there is risk, but the options are there. When the stars align, and your biggest needs match up with your best prospects, that is the worst time to create other holes, especially when those you propose trading aren't a drain on your resources.

[User Name]

Look, this weekend was bad...not many positives to take away from that series, but...but the Sox played quite possibly the best team in the league and were in position to win 2 of those games. I see 2 glaring problems with this team. Of course the bullpen and Josh Becketts attitude.

 

The bullpen: Of course Daniel Bard HAS to be brought back into the bullpen as the closer. This is a must and the sooner the better. This season isn't a dress rehearsal for Bard to see if he can be a starter so he can make more money in the long run. This is a team and this team needs him to do what he does, strikeout people in late innings. Between Padilla, Aceves and hopefully a new and improved Dice-K, the rotation can survives with this lineup. Make the move Red Sox and make it quick.

 

Josh Beckett: WTF? Can I hate a player on my favorite team as much as this guy? His piss poor I don't give a s*** attitude is old a pathetic and someone on this team has got to stand up to him and unfortunatly, I don't see one player, (maybe Pedey?) That will. Valentine still seems to be pandering to him since he took over as manager. If Beckett doesn't get his s*** straigh and lead by example, this is a cancer that will spread all season long.

 

Im not packing it in just yet folks. A 3 game sweep against Toronto, even 2 out of 3 will help immensly. The pitching matchups look favorable for Boston. We were all jumping ship last year and they turned it around, they have the ability to have a better start than last year as well. While it looks bleak...it is only 3 games. Let's go Sox!

 

Point A is a knee-jerk reaction. If Bard can be a good starter, he needs to be in the rotation until he reaches his innings cap. This is about long-term instead of short-term tunnel vision. Starting pitching is more valuable than relief pitching, which is, in turn, easier to fill out mid-season.

 

Point B i don't understand. What exactly did Beckett do this time to draw ire? He got bombed because he was all over the place, but what did he do/say that makes his attitude "wrong"? Should he have cried on the mound? Send part of his salary back to the fans?

[maximis]

Bard is a known comidity as a late innings bullpen guy. He can help win more games (2 this weekend) before he even pitches 1 game tomorrow.

 

And please. If you cannot see his attitude before this season and even after his loss on Saturday, you are not keeping tabs of things. He shows up this spring traing 10 pounds over weight and just shrugged it off as it was no big deal. As one of the leaders of this team, after last seasons collapse which he had a MAJOR part in, he should be focused and ready and by all accounts he is not. His attitude sucks and needs to be readjusted immediatly.

[mvp 78]

How would Bard have won 2 games? They only led in one of them.

[User Name]

Bard is a known comidity as a late innings bullpen guy. He can help win more games (2 this weekend) before he even pitches 1 game tomorrow.

 

20/20 hindsight. Also, he's not a proven commodity as a closer.

 

And please. If you cannot see his attitude before this season and even after his loss on Saturday, you are not keeping tabs of things. He shows up this spring traing 10 pounds over weight and just shrugged it off as it was no big deal. As one of the leaders of this team, after last seasons collapse which he had a MAJOR part in, he should be focused and ready and by all accounts he is not. His attitude sucks and needs to be readjusted immediatly.

 

I see little substance here. Sorry. You're entitled to your opinion though.

[maximis]

Im saying he could have helped. If you think this bullpen is just fine the way it is...then you have rose colored glasses on. He could have came in and pitched 2 maybe 3 innings on Thursday and our lineup could have maybe done something in the extra innings. The backend of this bullpen is a joke as currently constituted. He can have an effect on 3 to 4 games a week...instead of 6 to 7 innings once maybe twice a week. Its a no brainer.

[maximis]

Thank you and you are entitled to yours as well. Ut if you think +eckett is just fine the way he is, then you are either related to him or a Yankee fan. As one of the longest tenured players who makes the most, is considered to be a frontline starter who is extremely talented & who was a major disapointment at the end of the year and comes in like last year was no big deal...yes, I have a problem with his lack of leadership and his "whatever" attitude.

[mvp 78]

If Bard goes to the bullpen, it should be for one inning stints ala Paps than multiple innings. If he had pitched on Thursday or Saturday, no way would he pitch 3 on Sunday.

[FredLynn]

Im saying he could have helped. If you think this bullpen is just fine the way it is...then you have rose colored glasses on. He could have came in and pitched 2 maybe 3 innings on Thursday and our lineup could have maybe done something in the extra innings. The backend of this bullpen is a joke as currently constituted. He can have an effect on 3 to 4 games a week...instead of 6 to 7 innings once maybe twice a week. Its a no brainer.

 

Generally speaking, a good SP is more valuable than a good RP. Rings are won with SP first, then RP, then some timely offense. Thats why the Rays will continue to compete: great SP. That said, our pen is in such shambles that if we want to try to play in October this year we will need reinforcements either from within or via trade or FA.

[User Name]

Thank you and you are entitled to yours as well. Ut if you think +eckett is just fine the way he is' date=' [b']then you are either related to him or a Yankee fan[/b]. As one of the longest tenured players who makes the most, is considered to be a frontline starter who is extremely talented & who was a major disapointment at the end of the year and comes in like last year was no big deal...yes, I have a problem with his lack of leadership and his "whatever" attitude.

 

This is idiocy. You're new to this board, so how about you calm down just a little bit?

 

I'm not saying i like Beckett's attitude. I'm saying i don't care about it as long as he keeps his mouth shut and performs. After Saturday, there was no confrontation or ********. Just the cold, hard truth: He didn't execute and the Tigers kicked his ass.

 

If you want anything more than that then you're "Either related to one of his exes or a Marlins fan"

[maximis]

If this team stands status quo...we will be sellers, not buyers later this season.

[ORS]

How would Bard have won 2 games? They only led in one of them.

It's guaranteed that he gets those two outs in the 9th and doesn't let an inherited runner score, and his mere presence in the game also guarantees the offense scores multiple runs in the top of the 10th, forcing Leyland for forfeit their chance in the bottom of the inning, which would save some load on his arm. After the game, he would have published his cure for cancer and settled the dispute between Israel and Palestine.

 

The only thing remarkable here is that you didn't know this would happen. Shame on you.

[FredLynn]

If this team stands status quo...we will be sellers' date=' not buyers later this season.[/quote']

 

I am not sure that that is a bad thing this year.

Someone here suggested that we go with what we have until about the ASB and see where we are. If we are in contention and missing just a player or two, we try to get him or them. If we are 12 games out then we become sellers. Thats not a bad suggestion.

[jung]

I am amazed at the ease with which people just bump Bard out of his starting assignment without having thrown a pitch yet in that role in order to insert him as the closer without having any idea whether Bard would resolve what issues the Sox have closing.

 

Then we go on and express rightful concern about the Sox starting pitching having first taken the opportunity that Bard represents in a starting role and thrown it down a rat hole insisting that he must close....staggering!

 

While the Sox will not face teams with the offensive fire power of the Tigers, my concern with the starting pitching is that Lester is so far the only one of the "big three" that has had a solid outing.

 

If Beckett continues to be up in the strike zone, in the middle of the plate he will continue to get rocked. They may not be the moon shots we saw in Detroit but he will get rocked none the less. My biggest fear in his case is that 94 mph (top speed reached in ST) is more the anomaly and that he will no longer be able to get his fastball over 92-93. That would be OK if he had already mastered his secondary pitches such that there is enough of a velocity change between his FB and those pitches. Without that good hitters will be right on his fastball. Neither of the possible issues with Beckett is promising. He is either to injured to pitch better than this or he has not adapted well enough yet to the fact that he is no longer the young fireballing hurling he once was. Both suggest he is not going to be a solid starter this year. His poor location combined with the lack of velocity is more suggestive of injury than lack of progress toward what I call his Greg Maddux project. However if it is the injury then he is probably on the way to surgery and on the shelf for this season.

 

Buch was at least down in the strike zone while also covering far to much of the middle of the plate. While he did not last very long either in the blaze that is the Tiger's offense, you can easily see the difference between being up in the zone in the middle of the plate and down in the zone in the middle of the plate. No moon shot homers. Buch will be OK I think but he looks less like the promising young starter he looked like a few years ago at least to me. His fragile body may simply not be able to produce like we once thought and while I suspect he can hold onto his #3 spot in this rotation, Buch does not amount to helping me achieve some sort of comfort zone with this year's rotation.

 

I do think Aceves needs to be moved out of the closers role mainly because he just does not appear to be able to pitch there and because he is so good in the role he occupied last year. I think Aceves will get one more shot tonight against the Jays because the Sox really do not have a choice for tonight. However after tonight I would move Aceves out of that role. I might give him one more shot at it if he excels tonight but in my view, baring that, it is the Aceves at closer experiment that needs to end, not the Bard at starter experiment which has not even started.

[FredLynn]

It's guaranteed that he gets those two outs in the 9th and doesn't let an inherited runner score, and his mere presence in the game also guarantees the offense scores multiple runs in the top of the 10th, forcing Leyland for forfeit their chance in the bottom of the inning, which would save some load on his arm. After the game, he would have published his cure for cancer and settled the dispute between Israel and Palestine.

 

The only thing remarkable here is that you didn't know this would happen. Shame on you.

 

The mere force of his personality would have won two games for us. :harhar:

[maximis]

And I must say, having a "closer" who has a ERA that's too big to type here...this team will go nowhere. Aceves, who I like, is more suited to be a middle reliever and quite possibly an effective #5. Who else other than Bard can close games on this roster? And I have no question Bard can and will be a quality closer one day.

[maximis]

The Tigers, Yankees, Angels, Rangers and Rays all have GREAT offenses. And look, those are all playoff contenders, who can pitch and close games.

[FredLynn]

And I must say' date=' having a "closer" who has a ERA that's too big to type here...this team will go nowhere. Aceves, who I like, is more suited to be a middle reliever and quite possibly an effective #5. Who else other than Bard can close games on this roster? And I have no question Bard can and will be a quality closer one day.[/quote']

 

If Bard could be an effective SP or an effective closer, you would prefer him in the closer role?

[jung]

Base on performance I would drop either Padilla or Morales into the closers role for now. My preference would be Padilla. He simply does not give a damn what inning it is.

 

Aceves has fallen apart between the ears. It is not his arm. If Padilla is sound he will make his pitches regardless of what inning it is. The fact that we really do not know how long Padilla could go on any given night also suggests the closer role since he would be coming in for one inning stints. Granted Padilla in this role is a matter of necessity brought on by the Bailey mess but that is what I would do.

[maximis]

At this point seeing my favorite team blow 2 saves in one game, seeing nobody else being able to take over that role...yes. again, he can have an effect on more games as a closer. Say he is a good starter, goes 6 maybe 7 innings and hands the ball over to this "bullpen" and they blow it. What good is he as a starter then?

[mvp 78]

It's guaranteed that he gets those two outs in the 9th and doesn't let an inherited runner score, and his mere presence in the game also guarantees the offense scores multiple runs in the top of the 10th, forcing Leyland for forfeit their chance in the bottom of the inning, which would save some load on his arm. After the game, he would have published his cure for cancer and settled the dispute between Israel and Palestine.

 

The only thing remarkable here is that you didn't know this would happen. Shame on you.

 

Don't you think fixing Israel/Palestine is a little presumptuous?

 

Maybe he could fix the demilitarized zone in Korea, but no way does he close out the peace process in the middle east. Only a lubed up Paplebon jigging in spandex shorts could do that...

[FredLynn]

At this point seeing my favorite team blow 2 saves in one game' date=' seeing nobody else being able to take over that role...yes. again, he can have an effect on more games as a closer. Say he is a good starter, goes 6 maybe 7 innings and hands the ball over to this "bullpen" and they blow it. What good is he as a starter then?[/quote']

 

What if your SP can only last four innings or less? Then the bullpen has to pitch so much that they won't make it through the season. IMO a good SP is worth more than a good closer. The salaries they receive on the open market support that opinion.

This is an unusual situation this year. We have other options at SP; we have none as closer, not in-house, not viable options IMO. I would favor delaying Bard's transition to SP until next year and not trading away any significant talent to obtain more help this year.

[ORS]

Don't you think fixing Israel/Palestine is a little presumptuous?

 

Maybe he could fix the demilitarized zone in Korea, but no way does he close out the peace process in the middle east. Only a lubed up Paplebon jigging in spandex shorts could do that...

You make a good point. However, I never said he could institute "Peace in the Middle East", but just settle the 60+ year governance/territory dispute over the birthplace of the monotheistic religions that claim 2/3 of the world as believers. Settling the differences between those religions would surely take a personality, and intellect, as remarkable as Papelbon's.

[jung]

Before this is done we will see every option we THINK we have at SP exercised to one degree or another. So I would not consider us to be all that deep in that regard. They will all be tried at some point anyway, especially if Beckett's issues are injury related.