Madson re-signs in Philly

[Station 13]

He pitched 73.0 innings last year, and 74.2 in 2010. Where was this "burnout" in 2010 when he pitched more innings?

 

The excuses for Bard are getting old. People are of the opinion that he doesn't have the mindset of a closer, and he's very inconsistent in general. I tend to agree with that opinion.

 

Bard had 4-5 awful games out of 70. Stop over-thinking. He's better than 90% of relievers out there. Inconsistent relievers don't get charged with 107 inherited base runners since 2009. Inconsistent reliever don't hold the club all time record with 26 1/3 scoreless inning. Inconsistent relievers don't play in Boston. Quit worrying about Bard.

[jacksonianmarch]

I'd want to see Bard come back from his first taste of big league adversity. People are saying it is mechanical or mental or whatever. I am interested in seeing if he can rebound from a sorry ass September, something he couldnt do in the minors as a starter. And I am also interested in seeing if he has an injury that we'll find out about in late February, early March

[User Name]

Bard had 4-5 awful games out of 70. Stop over-thinking. He's better than 90% of relievers out there. Inconsistent relievers don't get charged with 107 inherited base runners since 2009. Inconsistent reliever don't hold the club all time record with 26 1/3 scoreless inning. Inconsistent relievers don't play in Boston. Quit worrying about Bard.

 

It's not over-thinking. It is an opinion reflected by many that Bard is inconsistent and not ready to be a closer, at least not yet.

 

Sure, he can go on awesome runs, but the fact that he can go wild for extended periods of time is not a fabrication.

[Palodios]

I don't think getting a specific pitcher to close (even if it's not Papelbon) is prohibitive towards getting other pitchers.

 

You also have to think that your strategy of signing the best pitchers on the market entails signing several closers, and once one signs with a team (Sox in this case) the others are likely to look for closer opportunities elsewhere.

 

Not several closers. Closers get overpaid, look at Jenks. Several elite setup men... all just not quite good enough to close yet, but very hungry to get the chance, and maybe in a good year they'll step up.

[User Name]

Not several closers. Closers get overpaid' date=' look at Jenks. Several elite setup men... all just not quite good enough to close yet, but very hungry to get the chance, and maybe in a good year they'll step up.[/quote']

 

Set-up men can get overpaid too. What the Sox need to do (in my opinion) is create a bullpen structure with well-defined roles and arms that fit the bill of each of those roles, kind of like what LaRussa had going on in STL.

[jacksonianmarch]

Every great bullpen is built from within. You build from a core and then fill in when needed. The Yankees had a dominant pen in the late 90s by building around guys like Mendoza and Rivera and adding in guys like Nelson and Stanton. We had a rough run from 01 to a couple years back when we kept dealing live armed kids and signing veterans who fell through the cracks (Steve Karsay anyone?). And we got back to pen prosperity by growing a solid pen. In 09, it was Hughes and Robertson setting up for Mo. In 2010, it was Chamberlain, Robertson and a couple others contributing in front of Mo. This yr, it was Robertson, Soriano, and Chamberlain with Boone Logan stepping up. Logan was a journeyman who was effectively groomed and retrained in the Yankee system and is now a viable lefty setup man. This is how you go about it. If I were the sox, I'd see do this....

 

Promote Ranaudo to AA, if he dominates, convert him to the pen for the stretch run and see if he can give you a shot in the arm in September. Have Doubront be a lefty swing man. Keep Bard, re-sign Papelbon, keep Aceves in the pen.Keep Morales as well, as he seemed to turn a corner, and see how Weiland and Bowden might fare out of the big league pen. If one of them clicks, so be it, if not, you can deal for a reliever at the deadline. You're just as likely to hit with a kid you groomed out there as you will with an older, defined reliever who will be many times more expensive

[Palodios]

Sure' date=' he can go on awesome runs, but the fact that he can go wild for extended periods of time is not a fabrication.[/quote']

 

So what? The same can be said about most relievers. Between May 24th and June 7th, Papelbon gave up 9 runs in 6.1 innings and 7 appearances. Yet I can't seem to convince anyone that Papelbon needs to go, because "Bard isn't ready. Bard is inconsistent."

[Station 13]

This is a fair point. So what should the Sox do?

 

Keep Papelbon, make Bard the closer or look for another alternative?

 

If they can't agree on a deal with Papelbon, they go to their next best, which is Bard. People overate closers. Valverde is a s***** reliever that rack up 40 saves (while inducing uclers). STL won the WS with 4 different closers this year.

[User Name]

So what? The same can be said about most relievers. Between May 24th and June 7th' date=' Papelbon gave up 9 runs in 6.1 innings and 7 appearances. Yet I can't seem to convince anyone that Papelbon needs to go, because "Bard isn't ready. Bard is inconsistent."[/quote']

 

You're kinda putting words in my mouth.

 

Notice how i've said several times that Papelbon is not necessarily the solution?

 

Please don't do that. Thanks.

[User Name]

If they can't agree on a deal with Papelbon' date=' they go to their next best, which is Bard. People overate closers. Valverde is a s***** reliever that rack up 40 saves. STL won the WS with 4 different closers this year.[/quote']

 

We can agree to disagree here. I've read and heard enough tidbits about Bard's mental makeup deficiencies to be weary of the idea of him as closer. But that's a personal stance.

[Palodios]

Every great bullpen is built from within.

 

The simple fact is, the Red Sox don't have that option. So their best bet is to get a few talented guys, and hope some of them pan out.

[User Name]

Promote Ranaudo to AA' date=' if he dominates, convert him to the pen for the stretch run and see if he can give you a shot in the arm in September. Have Doubront be a lefty swing man. Keep Bard, re-sign Papelbon, keep Aceves in the pen.Keep Morales as well, as he seemed to turn a corner, and see how Weiland and Bowden might fare out of the big league pen. If one of them clicks, so be it, if not, you can deal for a reliever at the deadline. You're just as likely to hit with a kid you groomed out there as you will with an older, defined reliever who will be many times more expensive[/quote']

 

Agree with most of this except for rushing Ranaudo.

[a700hitter]

The simple fact is' date=' the Red Sox don't have that option. So their best bet is to get a few talented guys, and hope some of them pan out.[/quote']A organizational weakness for the last 9 years.

[Palodios]

You're kinda putting words in my mouth.

 

Notice how i've said several times that Papelbon is not necessarily the solution?

 

Please don't do that. Thanks.

 

FYI, that wasn't necessarily targeted at you. Many many many posters on here are completely adamant about this team's need for Papelbon, and that is usually the excuse, that Bard is not ready.

[Palodios]

A organizational weakness for the last 9 years.

 

Not quite. The Red Sox have gone the crap-shoot route, where they buy one established reliever, and then get guys like Schoenweiss and Atchison and hope they pan out. Hoping talented guys work is a much better bet than hoping the crap works out.

[a700hitter]

Not quite. The Red Sox have gone the crap-shoot route' date=' where they buy one established reliever, and then get guys like Schoenweiss and Atchison and hope they pan out. Hoping talented guys work is a much better bet than hoping the crap works out.[/quote']Let me clarify. Building a bullpen from within the organization has been an organizational weakness for 9 years.

[Station 13]

 

Promote Ranaudo to AA, if he dominates, convert him to the pen for the stretch run and see if he can give you a shot in the arm in September. Have Doubront be a lefty swing man. Keep Bard, re-sign Papelbon, keep Aceves in the pen.Keep Morales as well, as he seemed to turn a corner, and see how Weiland and Bowden might fare out of the big league pen. If one of them clicks, so be it, if not, you can deal for a reliever at the deadline. You're just as likely to hit with a kid you groomed out there as you will with an older, defined reliever who will be many times more expensive

 

I think this is their direction. Weiland and Alex Wilson are power arm that can make good bullpen candidate. The Sox just love power arms.

[example1]

The Sox should not get all worked up over Papelbon. He's a very, very good closer. However, he's going to be getting a king's ransom for a job that other pitchers can do a good percentage of the time. He isn't Mariano Rivera.

 

I would love it if he came back at a reasonable price and with PHI off the market I suspect it could be possible that he's back without paying him $15m/yr. Of course if he wants to go elsewhere then so be it. Take the draft picks, sign some other guys and move on.

[SCM33]

The Sox should not get all worked up over Papelbon. He's a very, very good closer. However, he's going to be getting a king's ransom for a job that other pitchers can do a good percentage of the time. He isn't Mariano Rivera.

 

I would love it if he came back at a reasonable price and with PHI off the market I suspect it could be possible that he's back without paying him $15m/yr. Of course if he wants to go elsewhere then so be it. Take the draft picks, sign some other guys and move on.

 

Redsox need to just suck it up and pay the guy.

 

They bring in Lackey and give him 17 million a year, They bring in Crawford and give him 20 million a year. They brought in Renteria and gave him 10 million a year. They gave Clement 8.3 Million a year. They signed and gave Lugo @ 9 million a year.

 

How about paying the guys you already have....the guys who have already proven themselves? Nope....instead well overpay for someone elses s***** closer and save a cool 5 million.

 

They waste so much money on other teams s***, how about paying the guy we already have for once?

[Palodios]

They waste so much money on other teams s***' date=' how about paying the guy we already have for once?[/quote']

 

 

The Red Sox abuse the arbitration system to stockpile draft picks. Clay Buchholz, Daniel Bard, Ellsbury, Lowrie, Bowden and many of the pieces for the Vmart/Agon deals were all drafted off compensation picks. They tried negotiating with Papelbon several times. His agent knows how the Red Sox make deals. That is on him, not the Red Sox.

 

This team has around 24 million to spend. Why throw it all on a guy who pitches 3 innings a week? Especially when letting him go will net the Red Sox two first round draft picks?

[Palodios]

Let me clarify. Building a bullpen from within the organization has been an organizational weakness for 9 years.

 

Absolutely. But I think using that 45-60 million that Papelbon wants, and putting it towards six or seven contracts will go a very long way to rebuilding the depth of this team-- a point you have been hammering on heavily. I don't think it is financially possible to get bullpen depth and the second highest paid closer in the MLB.

[a700hitter]

The Sox should not get all worked up over Papelbon. He's a very, very good closer. However, he's going to be getting a king's ransom for a job that other pitchers can do a good percentage of the time. He isn't Mariano Rivera.

 

I would love it if he came back at a reasonable price and with PHI off the market I suspect it could be possible that he's back without paying him $15m/yr. Of course if he wants to go elsewhere then so be it. Take the draft picks, sign some other guys and move on.

Correction, Papelbon is a great closer, not just a very good closer. He's the best closer in team history. He's not Mo, but he did get to 200 saves faster than anyone including Mo. Anyone who thinks that letting Papelbon walk is a good idea doesn't have an adequate

Appreciation of the stability he has brought to the 9th inning for the last 6 seasons.

[Palodios]

Correction, Papelbon is a great closer, not just a very good closer. He's the best closer in team history. He's not Mo, but he did get to 200 saves faster than anyone including Mo. Anyone who thinks that letting Papelbon walk is a good idea doesn't have an adequate

Appreciation of the stability he has brought to the 9th inning for the last 6 seasons.

 

It isn't about the 9th inning. No one will be better Papelbon in the 9th inning. It is about the 8th inning, the 7th inning, the 6th inning, the 5th inning. Its about all of the games where the closer has already pitched two or three days in a row, and is unavailable to pitch. And its about those two first round draft picks-- I'm familiar that you're against hoarding picks, but you should know by now what kind of major league talent two first round draft picks would yield in a trade.

[a700hitter]

And its about those two first round draft picks-- I'm familiar that you're against hoarding picks' date=' but you should know by now what kind of major league talent two first round draft picks would yield in a trade.[/quote']With the exception of 2005, the list of Red Sox first round picks sinc 2003 has been very unimpressive- certainly nothing to celebrate getting in return for the best Sox closer in history.

[Palodios]

IWith the exception of 2005' date=' the list of Red Sox first round picks sinc 2003 has been very unimpressive- certainly nothing to celebrate getting in return for the best Sox closer in history.[/quote']

 

This is completely and utterly incorrect.

 

Most of the Red Sox's success in the farm system has come from top 50 picks. There have been duds, but Lester, Buchholz, Ellsbury, Pedroia, Bard have all been first or second round picks. Hagadone, Kelly, Fuentes, Price were all pieces in the Vmart and Agon deals-- trades that required no major league talent, only draft picks.

[a700hitter]

This is completely and utterly incorrect.

 

Most of the Red Sox's success in the farm system has come from top 50 picks. There have been duds, but Lester, Buchholz, Ellsbury, Pedroia, Bard have all been first or second round picks. Hagadone, Kelly, Fuentes, Price were all pieces in the Vmart and Agon deals-- trades that required no major league talent, only draft picks.

Check the list of first round picks. It's not that impressive, with the exception of 2005.

[Palodios]

Check the list of first round picks. It's not that impressive' date=' with the exception of 2005.[/quote']

 

Perhaps YOU should take a look at that list.

 

Between 2009 and 2006, the Red Sox's first round draft picks have yielded Bard, Vmart and Agon. Three players at the top 5 of their position is pretty good.

[a700hitter]

Perhaps YOU should take a look at that list.

 

Between 2009 and 2006, the Red Sox's first round draft picks have yielded Bard, Vmart and Agon. Three players at the top 5 of their position is pretty good.

I didn't see Masterson on that list. Isn't that who we traded for VMart?

[Laser Show]

I didn't see Masterson on that list. Isn't that who we traded for VMart?

 

Masterson was a 2nd round pick

[a700hitter]

Masterson was a 2nd round pick

Not a compensation pick.