Madson re-signs in Philly

[jacksonianmarch]

4yrs, $44 mil with a 5th yr $13 mil vesting option. The AAV makes him the second highest paid closer in baseball behind Rivera. Papelbon is absolutely salivating at this. Expect a 4 yr or more contract for Paps

[redsoxrules]

f***

 

that's a dumb deal by the Phils

[Station 13]

No, not really. One less big market team.

 

Who wants to sign Paps to a huge contract, lose their 1st rounder in the process?

[Palodios]

Weren't the Phillies the biggest suitors for Papelbon already?

[User Name]

4yrs' date=' $44 mil with a 5th yr $13 mil vesting option. The AAV makes him the second highest paid closer in baseball behind Rivera. Papelbon is absolutely salivating at this. Expect a 4 yr or more contract for Paps[/quote']

 

His AAV (option included) would be 11.4 million, which is not higher than the 12 million Papelbon made last year.

[jacksonianmarch]

Well, Papelbon isnt under contract right now, so he's currently the second highest paid closer in baseball

[User Name]

But that wasn't your point i assume.

 

If it was, then fair enough.

[jacksonianmarch]

It was, it was just posted in the article on ESPN

[redsoxrules]

No' date=' not really[/b']. One less big market team.

 

Who wants to sign Paps to a huge contract, lose their 1st rounder in the process?

 

Yes really, Madison is good but he's no Papelbon.

 

If Madison can fetch what he did , Papelbon will have a slightly better deal elsewheres

[jacksonianmarch]

You're looking at 4 yrs $50 mil as a starting point, now. Likely in the $52-56 mil range.

[User Name]

So essentially the 3/39 deal everyone's been proposing with a year added to it.

[Palodios]

I've been saying this since 2009. Drop him, take the value, and rebuild the bullpen BALANCED, instead of focused on one guy. Everyone talks about how great Papelbon is, and forgets how terrible the setup has been. It is more important to the team to be good from the 6th to the 9th than terrible from the 6th through 7th, and then great to excellent in the latest innings.

[User Name]

I've been saying this since 2009. Drop him' date=' take the value, and rebuild the bullpen BALANCED, instead of focused on one guy. Everyone talks about how great Papelbon is, and forgets how terrible the setup has been. It is more important to the team to be good from the 6th to the 9th than terrible from the 6th through 7th, and then great to excellent in the latest innings.[/quote']

 

Who would you put at Closer instead of Papelbon?

 

Not disagreeing with you, i just want to see your perspective.

[Palodios]

Who would you put at Closer instead of Papelbon?

 

Not disagreeing with you, i just want to see your perspective.

 

It doesn't really matter to me. My perspective is that everyone says how important it is to have an elite closer... but the last two times the season was on the line, Papelbon blew it. So what difference does it make? I'd rather take that 4/50 contract, and sign three 2/8 now, and three more 2/8 for 14. We're talking six contracts for 4 million dollars a year a piece. Six! That will pay for pretty much any elite setup man without closer experience.

 

The whole problem of this team going into 2011 was that they put all their money into just a few baskets, instead of making smart decisions and creating depth at multiple positions.

 

Oh, and two first round draft picks. It took two first round draft picks plus a quality prospect to get A-gon, so we're basically saying 60% of the chips for a big deal, just from dropping a guy that will cost far more than he's worth to the team.

[User Name]

It doesn't really matter to me. My perspective is that everyone says how important it is to have an elite closer... but the last two times the season was in the line, Papelbon blew it. So what difference does it make? I'd rather take that 4/50 contract, and sign three 2/8 now, and three more 2/8 for 14. We're talking six contracts for 4 million dollars a piece. Six! That will pay for pretty much any elite setup man without closer experience.

 

The whole problem of this team going into 2011 was that they put all their money into just a few baskets, instead of making smart decisions and creating depth at multiple positions.

 

It does make a difference, but not one worth 4/50.

 

People stress the importance of having a great closer because it's really important.

 

Losing Papelbon without replacing him with a reliable arm would be a huge blow. Setting up and closing are two entirely different beasts, as Daniel Bard has shown us.

[jacksonianmarch]

I've been saying this since 2009. Drop him' date=' take the value, and rebuild the bullpen BALANCED, instead of focused on one guy. Everyone talks about how great Papelbon is, and forgets how terrible the setup has been. It is more important to the team to be good from the 6th to the 9th than terrible from the 6th through 7th, and then great to excellent in the latest innings.[/quote']

 

It has been proven time and time again that big bullpen signings typically are a crapshoot. Most pens are built from the ground up with home grown guys and smart insertions here and there. The sox dont have the groundwork in the upper minors to field a talented pen, so re-signing a guy who they know can handle Fenway is pretty important. If the sox go out and sign the top 3 relievers after Papelbon, even though they will save money, there is a good chance that 2 of them will flop

[Palodios]

It does make a difference, but not one worth 4/50.

 

People stress the importance of having a great closer because it's really important.

 

Losing Papelbon without replacing him with a reliable arm would be a huge blow. Setting up and closing are two entirely different beasts, as Daniel Bard has shown us.

 

As Daniel Bard has shown us? His arm burned out. Period. Between the months of April and August Bard had a WHIP of .80. Let's put that into perspective: Rivera has had exactly one season with a WHIP lower than that. One.

[Palodios]

It has been proven time and time again that big bullpen signings typically are a crapshoot. Most pens are built from the ground up with home grown guys and smart insertions here and there. The sox dont have the groundwork in the upper minors to field a talented pen' date=' so re-signing a guy who they know can handle Fenway is pretty important. If the sox go out and sign the top 3 relievers after Papelbon, even though they will save money, there is a good chance that 2 of them will flop[/quote']

 

If two of those relievers flop, they get one good reliever. If Papelbon flops, they get nothing.

[User Name]

As Daniel Bard has shown us? His arm burned out. Period. Between the months of April and August Bard had a WHIP of .80. Let's put that into perspective: Rivera has had exactly one season with a WHIP lower than that. One.

 

You can't extrapolate full seasons to partial seasons. And if you were to try, you'd have to take out Bard's best month along with his worst one.His burning out is pretty much what i'm getting at. You can count on a full season of excellence from an upper-echelon closer. Bard does not appear to be ready for that.

 

I'm not saying the Sox can't survive without Papelbon, what i'm saying is that Bard is not ready to be the closer, and they need a quality arm to replace Papelbon if he leaves.

[Station 13]

Yes really, Madison is good but he's no Papelbon.

 

If Madison can fetch what he did , Papelbon will have a slightly better deal elsewheres

 

I was replying to jacko, must hit the wrong button without the quoting. And yeah extremely stupid for the phillies. Bastardo could done the job for a fraction.

 

I don't see anyone going over 4 years on Papelbon. The Sox would be even hesitant on a 3 year deal if he wants over 12M AAV.

[Palodios]

You can't extrapolate full seasons to partial seasons. And if you were to try, you'd have to take out Bard's best month along with his worst one.His burning out is pretty much what i'm getting at. You can count on a full season of excellence from an upper-echelon closer. Bard does not appear to be ready for that.

 

I'm not saying the Sox can't survive without Papelbon, what i'm saying is that Bard is not ready to be the closer, and they need a quality arm to replace Papelbon if he leaves.

 

You don't seem to get it. The reason why Bard burned out is because the Red Sox have stacked their bullpen at the top, and the middle options are worthless. If they had more reliable options in the pen, they wouldn't have needed to overuse Bard, and they wouldn't have had that problem.

[Station 13]

 

I'm not saying the Sox can't survive without Papelbon, what i'm saying is that Bard is not ready to be the closer, and they need a quality arm to replace Papelbon if he leaves.

 

Bard is better than all the FA relievers minus Papelbon.

[User Name]

You don't seem to get it. The reason why Bard burned out is because the Red Sox have stacked their bullpen at the top' date=' and the middle options are worthless. If they had more reliable options in the pen, they wouldn't have needed to overuse Bard, and they wouldn't have had that problem.[/quote']

 

He pitched 73.0 innings last year, and 74.2 in 2010. Where was this "burnout" in 2010 when he pitched more innings?

 

The excuses for Bard are getting old. People are of the opinion that he doesn't have the mindset of a closer, and he's very inconsistent in general. I tend to agree with that opinion.

[User Name]

Bard is better than all the FA relievers minus Papelbon.

 

This is a fair point. So what should the Sox do?

 

Keep Papelbon, make Bard the closer or look for another alternative?

[Palodios]

He pitched 73.0 innings last year, and 74.2 in 2010. Where was this "burnout" in 2010 when he pitched more innings?

 

The excuses for Bard are getting old. People are of the opinion that he doesn't have the mindset of a closer, and he's very inconsistent in general. I tend to agree with that opinion.

 

Burnout can build over many years. Wear and tear does not always go away after the season ends. That's the beauty of a bullpen by committee, if Bard starts looking inconsistent, give him a breather, let someone take over.

[User Name]

Burnout can build over many years. Wear and tear does not always go away after the season ends. That's the beauty of a bullpen by committee' date=' if Bard starts looking inconsistent, give him a breather, let someone take over.[/quote']

 

A committee?

 

2003 flashbacks......having cold sweats.....someone make it stop.......

[Palodios]

A committee?

 

2003 flashbacks......having cold sweats.....someone make it stop.......

 

Well I'm having 2011 flashbacks. And flashbacks from 2010 when the 5th through 7th innings were a complete and utter shitshow. And 2009 flashbacks.

[Palodios]

Let me put it this way. How would you feel about Scott Atchison pitching the 7th and 8th innings again? That's what will happen if the Sox give Papelbon the megadeal he wants.

[User Name]

Well I'm having 2011 flashbacks. And flashbacks from 2010 when the 5th through 7th innings were a complete and utter shitshow. And 2009 flashbacks.

 

Let me put it this way. How would you feel about Scott Atchison pitching the 7th and 8th innings again? That's what will happen if the Sox give Papelbon the megadeal he wants.

 

 

 

I don't think getting a specific pitcher to close (even if it's not Papelbon) is prohibitive towards getting other pitchers.

 

You also have to think that your strategy of signing the best pitchers on the market entails signing several closers, and once one signs with a team (Sox in this case) the others are likely to look for closer opportunities elsewhere.

[jacksonianmarch]

If two of those relievers flop' date=' they get one good reliever. If Papelbon flops, they get nothing.[/quote']

 

I am saying you know what you have in Papelbon, just like we know what we have in Rivera. It'd be very easy to say that we should just let Rivera walk and sign 3 B level relievers to replace him, but we know that's not a good way to go about it. Yes, he gave up the ghost a bit, but he's exactly the kind of closer you need in Boston. He wants to beat you and when he loses, he shrugs it off better than anyone. You dont need some guy out there who implodes in a game then goes on a s*** run