Jim Rice for Manager 2012!

[Dawgma]

What do you say Jim.......... Go for it!

 

The Sox are in your Blood and we need that kind on guy in the Dugout.

 

Jim Rice: Calm, Cool, Collected, Respected and Needed!

[Gringo]

I'd be for it if he wore those bright colored suits in the dugout.

[SoxSport]

I saw some comments about Rice's hitting philosophy today. He always disagreed with Williams who told him to go for the walks and OBP. Rice said that he was up there to drive in runs, as the 3rd or 4th batter.

 

Mantle said exactly the same thing.

 

Ted had tremendous plate discipline. Ignored the situation. Men on base, etc. Refused to swing at a pitch

off the strike zone. That's how he and Ruth (and later Bonds) built up their OBP and OPS--walks.

The saber nerds consider walks and power the only criteria to judge a hitter.

 

I guess maybe another stat might settle it--like runs produced or bases produced. James has been using the runs produced stat for years. Steve Winters (math wiz) has come up with bases produced (google 'bases produced' for home page).

 

All these stats pretty much correlate with the best hitters.

 

I'll say this: If you have a Williams batting 3rd, and a Mantle batting 4th. You like Williams getting walks.

If you reverse the batting order, you like Mantle getting the walks.

[example1]

I saw some comments about Rice's hitting philosophy today. He always disagreed with Williams who told him to go for the walks and OBP. Rice said that he was up there to drive in runs, as the 3rd or 4th batter.

 

Mantle said exactly the same thing.

 

Ted had tremendous plate discipline. Ignored the situation. Men on base, etc. Refused to swing at a pitch

off the strike zone. That's how he and Ruth (and later Bonds) built up their OBP and OPS--walks.

The saber nerds consider walks and power the only criteria to judge a hitter.

 

I guess maybe another stat might settle it--like runs produced or bases produced. James has been using the runs produced stat for years. Steve Winters (math wiz) has come up with bases produced (google 'bases produced' for home page).

 

All these stats pretty much correlate with the best hitters.

 

I'll say this: If you have a Williams batting 3rd, and a Mantle batting 4th. You like Williams getting walks.

If you reverse the batting order, you like Mantle getting the walks.

 

1. None of this has to do with being a good manager.

2. Ted Williams or Jim Rice's hitting philosophies matter little to the Jarrod Saltalamachia's of the world. Being an elite all-time hitter and telling people to just rip their pitch is great for Adrian Gonzalez but is worthless if the guy just struggles to make contact. A manager manages a team of actual players, not Mantles.

3. Your saber-nerd comment is offensive to this saber nerd. All we care about is not walks and power. Get real.

[User Name]

1. None of this has to do with being a good manager.

2. Ted Williams or Jim Rice's hitting philosophies matter little to the Jarrod Saltalamachia's of the world. Being an elite all-time hitter and telling people to just rip their pitch is great for Adrian Gonzalez but is worthless if the guy just struggles to make contact. A manager manages a team of actual players, not Mantles.

3. Your saber-nerd comment is offensive to this saber nerd. All we care about is not walks and power. Get real.

 

Dude (Soxsport) comes here mouthing some antiquated ******** about sabermetrics without having a clue as to what "Sabermetrics" actually entails.

 

Learn what they are then comment on them, until then, stop spreading false information.

[mvp 78]

No

[User Name]

^ This

[a700hitter]

1. None of this has to do with being a good manager.

2. Ted Williams or Jim Rice's hitting philosophies matter little to the Jarrod Saltalamachia's of the world. Being an elite all-time hitter and telling people to just rip their pitch is great for Adrian Gonzalez but is worthless if the guy just struggles to make contact. A manager manages a team of actual players, not Mantles.

3. Your saber-nerd comment is offensive to this saber nerd. All we care about is not walks and power. Get real.

When Ted Williams managed the Senators, he did amazing things with some terrible hitters. He helped Ed Brinkman raise his average almost 80 points. He hit in the .180's 2 straight years before Teddy Ballgame took over. He turned Mike Epstein into a solid power hitter. Del Unser's average went up more than 50 points. Those 3 guys and Ken McMullen all had their career best years under Williams in 1969. Williams' coaching involved so much more than telling hitters to get a good pitch to rip. He knew the mechanics of hitting down to the finest detail. In explaining how to hit the eephus pitch he said that the batter had to adjust the upper cut of his swing about 15 degrees to hit the ball squarely. One time he was trying to get Bobby Doerr to adjust his swing in batting practice. Doerr said that he didn't feel comfortable with the adjustment. Williams got angry and told Doerr to go ahead a stay a crappy .280 hitter for the rest of his career. Typical Williams.

[Elktonnick]

When Ted Williams managed the Senators' date=' he did amazing things with some terrible hitters. He helped Ed Brinkman raise his average almost 80 points. He hit in the .180's 2 straight years before Teddy Ballgame took over. He turned Mike Epstein into a solid power hitter. Del Unser's average went up more than 50 points. Those 3 guys and Ken McMullen all had their career best years under Williams in 1969. Williams' coaching involved so much more than telling hitters to get a good pitch to rip. He knew the mechanics of hitting down to the finest detail. In explaining how to hit the eephus pitch he said that the batter had to adjust the upper cut of his swing about 15 degrees to hit the ball squarely. One time he was trying to get Bobby Doerr to adjust his swing in batting practice. Doerr said that he didn't feel comfortable with the adjustment. Williams got angry and told Doerr to go ahead a stay a crappy .280 hitter for the rest of his career. Typical Williams.[/quote']

 

The rest of the story is that Ted was very unhappy as a manager because he was so a great a hitter himself. Other than Pete Rose (and we all know what happened to him) I can't recall a truly great ballplayer who made it as a manager since Rogers Hornsby.

[a700hitter]

The rest of the story is that Ted was very unhappy as a manager because he was so a great a hitter himself. Other than Pete Rose (and we all know what happened to him) I can't recall a truly great ballplayer who made it as a manager since Rogers Hornsby.

Williams loved teaching hitting. He hated pitchers. He called them the stupidest creatures on earth. I think that he didn't like Texas.

[SoxSport]

3. Your saber-nerd comment is offensive to this saber nerd. All we care about is not walks and power. Get real.

 

No offense intended. Some of my best friends are saber-nerds.

 

"Walks and power" by the way was a Beane quote in Moneyball. That's how he drafts his young players.

[a700hitter]

The rest of the story is that Ted was very unhappy as a manager because he was so a great a hitter himself. Other than Pete Rose (and we all know what happened to him) I can't recall a truly great ballplayer who made it as a manager since Rogers Hornsby.

Joe Torre was an MVP caliber player and All Star.

[SoxSport]

Williams loved teaching hitting. He hated pitchers. He called them the stupidest creatures on earth. I think that he didn't like Texas.

 

You're right. He left the Rangers after one year because he didn't like Texas. That's what I read.

He did like Johnny Sain--who preached the same strike zone philosophy to pitchers what Ted preached to hitters.

[SoxSport]

The rest of the story is that Ted was very unhappy as a manager because he was so a great a hitter himself. Other than Pete Rose (and we all know what happened to him) I can't recall a truly great ballplayer who made it as a manager since Rogers Hornsby.

 

I wonder how many great players even tried to be managers. Not many.

 

Babe Ruth always wanted to be a manager. He never got to manage the Yankees or the Braves later in his career. I believe he was disappointed not being invited to manage the Braves.

[example1]

No offense intended. Some of my best friends are saber-nerds.

 

"Walks and power" by the way was a Beane quote in Moneyball. That's how he drafts his young players.

 

Beane quotes are relatively useless to me with regard to sabermetrics. Yes, he became famous because he sought the undervalued talent. Much of the credit really belongs with Bill James who-as I am absolutely sure you know- provided the basis for the system of in- depth numerical study of baseball players in the 1980s.

 

Beane and co are just one example of how it can be played out. Theo and co are another. There are plenty of examples.

 

OBP is a building block of the study, but because sabermetrics is a strategy of looking at player evaluation, it changes as the game does.

[Emmz]

OBP and ability to advance on the basepaths are what seems to give the most offensive value. Guys who have low OPS can have a great WAR if they're efficient base stealers.

[InfernoOrangeSS]

I like Jim Rice, and love to hear his commentary. I would not want him as manager.

 

[Dojji]

If you want a guy who advances a pure hitting philosophy for the everyman, then swallow your pride and bring Wade Boggs back. He lived for most of his career, certainly pretty much all of his post-Boston career, on pretty much nothing but.

 

Wade Boggs, Dwight Evans, and guys like him are living proof that so-called sabermetrics are older than they look. Heck back in the old days, even when the focus was on not striking out, teams knew how to use a guy who could walk. Jackie Robinson achieved walk-to-strikeout ratios that are unheard of today -- likely because of the evolution of modern pitching. It was no deep dark secret that walks led to runs -- managers just didn't want guys out there working the walk when they had a chance to line up something bigger, and that's certainly still true today.

 

I'm not convinced that baseball thoght really "evolved" that much in the sabermetric era. About all it really gave us is a way to compare players from the same era a bit more scientifically.

[User Name]

OBP and ability to advance on the basepaths are what seems to give the most offensive value. Guys who have low OPS can have a great WAR if they're efficient base stealers.

 

Actually, this isn't necessarily true. While Stolen Bases are part of the formula for calculating WOBA used by fangraphs, it is merely a small percentage of the total value in the formula.

 

Usually, low OPS guys have good WAR numbers if their defense is excellent, since it has a much higher actual value than stolen bases, being a component by itself.

[Emmz]

I don't think SBs have anything to do with wOBA, it's weighted on-base average, but what you said that defense is what keeps those low OPS guys' WAR is true. UZR factors in very heavily, especially in fangraphs' version of WAR.

[User Name]

I don't think SBs have anything to do with wOBA' date=' it's weighted on-base average, but what you said that defense is what keeps those low OPS guys' WAR is true. UZR factors in very heavily, especially in fangraphs' version of WAR.[/quote']

 

Here are the coefficients for WOBA, as used in fangraphs:

 

NIBB (Non Intentional Base on Balls): 0.72

HBP: 0.75

1B: 0.90

NSB: 0.70

2B: 1.24

3B: 1.56

HR: 1.95

 

The regular formula used on other sites replaces SB for ROE (Reached on error) and does not factor stolen bases at all when calculating WAR. The fangraphs formula is the one that includes NSB instead of ROE for the calculations.

[Elktonnick]

Joe Torre was an MVP caliber player and All Star.

 

Not to quibble but Torre was a very good player not one of the truly great ones. He never got more than 22 % of the HOF ballots. He will go into the HOF as a manager not as player. I will concede that he is one of the better players who was successful as a manager. I think that had more to do with the fact he was a catcher.

[Emmz]

What are you talking about, Joe Torre was one of the best offensive catchers in the 60s and early 70s. His career OPS was .817, the same as Johnny Bench, and his career OPS+ was 128, two points higher than Bench. He could very easily be a HOFer.

[Emmz]

Here are the coefficients for WOBA, as used in fangraphs:

 

NIBB (Non Intentional Base on Balls): 0.72

HBP: 0.75

1B: 0.90

NSB: 0.70

2B: 1.24

3B: 1.56

HR: 1.95

 

The regular formula used on other sites replaces SB for ROE (Reached on error) and does not factor stolen bases at all when calculating WAR. The fangraphs formula is the one that includes NSB instead of ROE for the calculations.

 

I stand corrected.

[a700hitter]

Not to quibble but Torre was a very good player not one of the truly great ones. He never got more than 22 % of the HOF ballots. He will go into the HOF as a manager not as player. I will concede that he is one of the better players who was successful as a manager. I think that had more to do with the fact he was a catcher.

Torre didn't catch after he left the Braves and he played for many years afterward. Less than half his career was spent behind the plate. His value was as an offensive player. He hit .361 (an unbelievable mark considering the era and his slowness afoot) and won the MVP as a first baseman. He was a perennial all star. He was a star play, not just a very good player.

[SoxSport]

Not to quibble but Torre was a very good player not one of the truly great ones. He never got more than 22 % of the HOF ballots. He will go into the HOF as a manager not as player. I will concede that he is one of the better players who was successful as a manager. I think that had more to do with the fact he was a catcher.

 

I remember one year, '71,Joe won the batting title hitting .363. Funny I remember him as a 3rd baseman, not a catcher, for the Cardinals. He did both. Also 1B. He was a good hitter--lifetime in the .290s and over .300 for the Cardinals in his prime. .365 OBP. Not a big HR hitter, but good rbi guy.

 

I think he'll make the HOF. He was an above average player and manager. He managed the Yankees to a title. He has a cushy executive job in MLB now. He is the consummate insider.

[Elktonnick]

Hey guys, I never said Torre wasn't a good player. He was a very good player. The fact is he wasn't voted into the HOF as a player. Check it out! He never got more than 22% of the writers vote for HOF. This by definition means he wasn't considered one of the truly greats. He isn't in Teddy Ballgames league. The fact is he was a catcher. He came up as a catcher. Jim Rice may be a great hitter. He may be a great hitting coach. That doesn't mean he'd make a good manager. Besides no one would offer Rice a managing job unless he did some time back in the majors on the bench coaching or having done some time managing in the minors.

[SoxSport]

What are you talking about' date=' Joe Torre was one of the best offensive catchers in the 60s and early 70s. His career OPS was .817, the same as Johnny Bench, and his career OPS+ was 128, two points higher than Bench. He could very easily be a HOFer.[/quote']

 

Torre added to his accomplishments by managing the Yankees to a title (how many?), and is now a MLB baseball executive. His total resume probably will now get him into the HOF.

[Elktonnick]

What are you talking about' date=' Joe Torre was one of the best offensive catchers in the 60s and early 70s. His career OPS was .817, the same as Johnny Bench, and his career OPS+ was 128, two points higher than Bench. He could very easily be a HOFer.[/quote']

 

What about the fact that only 22% of the writers who have the vote for HOF voted for him don't you understand. He didn't get in. He can only get in if the Old Timers committe elect him and it will probably be as a manager. Look it up!

[a700hitter]

What about the fact that only 22% of the writers who have the vote for HOF voted for him don't you understand. He didn't get in. He can only get in if the Old Timers committe elect him and it will probably be as a manager. Look it up!

You have to be a pretty damn good player to get 22% of the ballots in a HOF vote- not just a good player. Torre was a a star player, not just a good player. He wasn't an all time great, but he was a star.