The Collapse

[Gringo]

If the brass are floating phony pill addiction stories to the press, it's just inexcusable. Something tells me LL has his fingerprints on this one....he's their attack dog, anyway.

 

What a calamity this is.

 

And what's up with the $300 headphones? They're total clowns for doing that, the players must have been pissing themselves.

 

I guess the bottom line seems to be that the inmates ran the asylum, and none of the lightweights upstairs had the balls to reign them in.

 

And the lack of player accountability or even desire sullies the good name of the ball club.

 

Wow. Things got real bad around here real fast.

[FredLynn]

Apparently Terry Francona was separated from his wife' date=' and addicted to painkillers? Man, what s s***-show.[/quote']

 

You know what? That is information that should not have been published. I think that its fair to comment on the performances of the players, manager, GM etc, but everyone is entitled to some level of privacy-unless he brings that stuff up himself, and I didn't get the impression that he mentioned it.

The article gave a little more information that we fans are entitled to IMHO.

[randywatson]

thats a great article that.

 

the bit about the Strength and Conditioning coach being ignored is interesting.

 

i have a friend that spent this summer in New York working for a semi professional baseball team as their strength and conditioning coach.

 

he was telling me last week they where the fattest and laziest "athletes" he'd ever seen. The first day my friend was there he just wanted the lads to warm up with some jogging, nothing crazy. The teams dedicated hitter came up to my mate and point blank refused to run, he said he hasnt needed to run all his career, so why start now. And the funny thing is, the guy is a fat bastard!!!

 

he said compared to footballers and other sports we're used to, the player lack serious fitness (im irish so i mean soccer, gaelic football and rugby btw)

 

judging by that article though, it would seem a lot of the Sox first teamers need to be f*cked off. you cant have people around the dressing room that refuse to work hard, they are athletes after all, and as for the drinking and playing xbox thing :thumbdown

[BornToRun]

1. This leads me to think that Ells is gone the very second he has the chance to leave.

 

2. Lackey, I defended you all f***ing year and if in the middle of a pennant race you're sitting there with a 6.50 ERA and playing videogames, go f*** yourself. Get your s*** together.

 

3. Youkilis seems like kind of a prick, not that it bothers me.

 

4. Beckett and Lester, I am disappointed for lack of a better term. Hopefully they have enough pride and dignity to try and redeem themselves.

 

5. Overall, what a f***ing madhouse.

 

2012 needs to hurry up for this team, it's gonna be a long offseason.

[Cocos Disciples]

1. If the Red Sox won 91 games, then fried chicken, beer and video games would be the key to their chemistry.

 

2. The smear job against Francona is infuriating. I fully expect to see one against Theo as well.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

Obviously a few guys need to be unloaded, but to act like we'll in the AL east basement is a little ridiculous IMO.

 

Replace Theo with Cherington, and get a manager who simply doesn't take s***. Get Beckett and Lackey out of here at all costs. Beckett's an underachiever who never deserved his latest extension, Lackey's just a slob. At this point they're kinda like Sidney Wicks and Curtis Rowe, a couple of locker room poisoning turds from the Celtics dark days in the 70s. Ditch them. You have pockets, don't you? Find some random team that needs starting pitching and thinks they can provide a nice change of scenery for these guys. Eat as much salary as you need to.

[Elktonnick]

Obviously a few guys need to be unloaded, but to act like we'll in the AL east basement is a little ridiculous IMO.

 

Replace Theo with Cherington, and get a manager who simply doesn't take s***. Get Beckett and Lackey out of here at all costs. Beckett's an underachiever who never deserved his latest extension, Lackey's just a slob. At this point they're kinda like Sidney Wicks and Curtis Rowe, a couple of locker room poisoning turds from the Celtics dark days in the 70s. Ditch them. You have pockets, don't you? Find some random team that needs starting pitching and thinks they can provide a nice change of scenery for these guys. Eat as much salary as you need to.

 

As someone who watched virtual every pitch of every game, I never liked Beckett's attitude on the mound even when he was pitching well. There was something that didn't sit right with me. Clearly the "Texas Mafia" is a problem. They reinforce each others bad habits. While Lackey is seen as the bigger problem, ultimately I see Beckett as the bigger villian in this fiasco, behavior and attitude wise. His behavior enabled Lackey's. The Sox won't or can't get rid of Beckett but they should IMHO.

[VA Sox Fan]

1. If the Red Sox won 91 games, then fried chicken, beer and video games would be the key to their chemistry.

 

2. The smear job against Francona is infuriating. I fully expect to see one against Theo as well.

 

Exactly to both. They were known to drink in 2004 but that didn't matter b/c they won the WS. The Boston media will begin crapping on them relentlessly again Shank will be Shank and they'll probably bring Edes back, he was always great a crapping on the team.

[Muggah]

As someone who watched virtual every pitch of every game' date=' I never liked Beckett's attitude on the mound even when he was pitching well. There was something that didn't sit right with me. Clearly the "Texas Mafia" is a problem. They reinforce each others bad habits. While Lackey is seen as the bigger problem, ultimately I see Beckett as the bigger villian in this fiasco, behavior and attitude wise. His behavior enabled Lackey's. The Sox won't or can't get rid of Beckett but they should IMHO.[/quote']

 

Maybe it's me, but given Beckett's propensity for fancying himself some kind of cowboy, maverick, tough talker--whatever...I don't see any kind of situation in which he wouldn't come to blows verbally with the media and fans come ST. That, to me, is a ticking timebomb just waiting to go off no matter how much spin and damage control you try and put our before he arrives next spring.

 

I think they've seriously got to think about moving him. I know myself, it's not beneath me to buy a ticket and head down to ST to give him a piece of my mind up close and personal. And I know I'm not alone.

[FredLynn]

As someone who watched virtual every pitch of every game' date=' I never liked Beckett's attitude on the mound even when he was pitching well. There was something that didn't sit right with me. Clearly the "Texas Mafia" is a problem. They reinforce each others bad habits. While Lackey is seen as the bigger problem, ultimately I see Beckett as the bigger villian in this fiasco, behavior and attitude wise. His behavior enabled Lackey's. The Sox won't or can't get rid of Beckett but they should IMHO.[/quote']

 

Welcome over here Elk! This is actually a pretty cool board IMHO...just a few stragglers :harhar: (kidding).

Beckett has always seemed like a stubborn punk to me..talented, but a stubborn punk. Maybe a new no nonsense manager would be able to keep that stubborness at bay. If we could get a real ace pitcher, Lester and Beckett would be fine as long as they tow the line.

As for Lackey, he needs to go at all costs, even if it means eating his contract.

[FredLynn]

1. If the Red Sox won 91 games, then fried chicken, beer and video games would be the key to their chemistry.

 

2. The smear job against Francona is infuriating. I fully expect to see one against Theo as well.

 

The smear campaign was launched because Francona had the cajones to say that he wasn't sure that the management had his back, that they were fully supportive. Later he admitted that the was never asked back and was, in essence, fired. That makes the ownership look bad. They struck back with the personal garbage that should never have been revealed. If Epstein leaves without issueing disparaging remarks about the ownership to the media, I think he will get away clean.

[Muggah]

The smear campaign was launched because Francona had the cajones to say that he wasn't sure that the management had his back' date=' that they were fully supportive. Later he admitted that the was never asked back and was, in essence, fired. That makes the ownership look bad. They struck back with the personal garbage that should never have been revealed. If Epstein leaves without issueing disparaging remarks about the ownership to the media, I think he will get away clean.[/quote']

 

 

Not so sure about that, Pumpsie. Larry's been waiting five long years for a chance to pay Blunder back. If I'm a betting man, I say Larry lays a smear job on Blunder for the ages. Actually, I'm kind of looking forward to it. So naturally I hope I'm right. LOL

[3rdManOut]

As more and more reports come out about how a majority of the players acted, I have lost almost all respect for the 2011 team. They should be ashamed of themselves. This is NOT a good time to be a Red Sox fan.

[BigPapiEnFuego]

Theres more reports?

[Gringo]

Just read the article. Infuriating. Pedroia is the only guy on the team with any heart whatsoever. Beer chicken and video games in the clubhouse DURING A GAME? Are you kidding me?

 

Screw this Occupy Boston stuff, let's Occupy Fenway

 

Yep, it is infuriating. I always forgave Beckett's smug arrogance, because he was our player, and he was good. Now he can f*ck right off.

[jung]

I have little doubt that the part of the collapse story that basically suggests the possibility that Tito was a drug addict that allowed his personal problems, health issues and excessive use of pain killers to interfere with his job performance is a management spin job prompted by Tito's comment about feeling like he was unsure about support from the FO this year.

 

As I have said before, these guys live to spin. They are obsessed with issues that relate to the Red Sox brand and anything that they think has an impact on ticket sales, shirt sales, anything that generates revenue.

 

Remember Tito had his press conference and raised the "unsure of support from FO" issue. Clearly Tito was referring to the fact that the Sox had not picked up his option for even one year leaving him a lame duck manager. As soon as the big three took the mics, they were asked about Tito's comment and Lucky Larry could not stop himself. He immediately said that he "was perplexed by Tito's comment", as if we were all supposed to forget that they had not picked up Tito's option.

 

Spin is taking something that happened in fact and putting your slant on it. The fact is that the Sox did not pick up Tito's option. Sorry Larry and sorry John, you can't press some magic button and erase that fact from everybody's memory banks. In fact since it was a fact, I don't think Tito really thought he was stepping over the line commenting as he did in his press conference. However it really pissed the Sox brass off because now they felt like they had to "spin" that so they would not take any blame. I should also point out that other than making the one support comment, Tito has taken the blame for everything, I mean everything.

 

So what we are seeing here is the Sox ownership and upper management just unwilling to let this go. They must win every spin battle. They are incapable of accepting any blame in any respect even when confronted with a bald faced fact. So they spit out the story that Tito was abusing pain killers, allowing health issues and marriage issues to have an impact on his job performance. I have no doubt that the Tito part to the collapse story either came directly from Larry or from somebody in the Sox organization at Larry's insistence. Obviously this is a very ugly road to go down and speaks volumes to where management's heads are at.

 

Here is an instance where the Sox and their insistence on spinning everything makes them look strident and makes them look petty and vindictive which I think at least Larry is by the way. I don't blame the writer of the piece for putting it in because if he did not he would have seen it in print from a competing media source and he would have looked foolish given the nature of his piece and he did allow Tito to respond. However the fact that Sox management will not let this issue go tells you how absolutely focused they are on spin and style over substance. This ownership group did not start this way in my view but once they figured out how they wanted to manage this business, what they wanted it to look like they have been very single minded in that regard.

 

The Sox did not even have to make excuses for not having picked up Tito's option. They own the team. All they would have had to say was that they thought they needed a change....end of story. But since they are absolutely obsessed with spin, they instead end up going down this road looking obsessed with appearances while the team is reeling from having blown itself up, suffering the worst collapse in the history of baseball. There is the chance that changes made for purposes of appearances can be sufficient enough to change the actual result but rest assured if there is one thing you can take to the bank it will be that what changes are made will be made for appearances sake first and foremost.

 

This is also why I actually do worry about what comes next because the guys at the top of this organization have always exerted their will on it and refuse to give up much in the way of control. I don't expect them to give control to anybody coming into Theo's position whether from within or from outside of the organization. Here the Sox are struggling to pull things together after a historical collapse with player issues all over the place and they absolutely refuse to change their propensity for style over substance.

 

It will be dumb luck if we get changes that actually have a positive impact on how the team performs on the field.

[BigPapiEnFuego]

And this was just on the globe's site:

 

Josh Beckett’s habit of hanging around the clubhouse during games is nothing new according to former Florida Marlins manager Jack McKeon.

 

McKeon told the Palm Beach Post today that he locked the clubhouse door in 2003 to keep Beckett and Brad Penny from escaping the dugout during games. He even resorted to issuing bathroom passes.

 

“In between innings they’d go to the clubhouse to get a drink or hang out,’’ McKeon recalled. “I said, ‘Hey, I got no rule against going up if you have to go to the bathroom or something, but get back.’ A couple of times I looked down the bench to talk to somebody and they weren’t there. They were in the clubhouse. So I went up and got them out and said, ‘OK, boys that’s it. We’ll lock the door.’ ”

 

McKeon said he literally had to chase Beckett out of the clubhouse with a bat. The Marlins went on to win the World Series in 2003 with Beckett winning the final game against the Yankees.

 

On Tuesday, the Globe revealed that Beckett, John Lackey and Jon Lester drew the ire of manager Terry Francona by spending time in the clubhouse during games this season drinking beer, eating fast-food chicken and playing video games.

 

“I don’t know what’s going on back in the clubhouse. Neither do a lot of guys during the game,” second baseman Dustin Pedroia told WEEI. “I don’t look down towards the people [who were] doing that by any means. I just hope it doesn’t affect their play on the field. If it affects their play on the field, then we need to make an adjustment.”

 

What a dick. Trade him to the Astros.

[RedSoxfanforlife305]

f***ing players taking this s*** as a joke. Starting to lose my respect for them. How classless of them.

[jung]

I am officially more embarrassed by this team from top to bottom than any Sox team in the 51 years I have been following them.

 

I can only hope that the holy of holy's, the stupid damn string of home sell outs finally comes crashing down around their ears next year. Frankly since so many of those seats go to the ticket sales companies, in big blocks early there is every chance that it will finally come to a merciful end next year. Hopefully that might wake somebody up over there. Although I am sure they will do anything to preserve it including cut some sort of inside deal to cover any outstanding seats. That sell out string is one of the cornerstone's of their branding/marketing effort.

[Gringo]

No wonder why Beltre and Martinez left last year. They saw first hand the dumb sh*t going on in the clubhouse with these Hee Haw huckleberries.

[Gringo]

I am officially more embarrassed by this team from top to bottom than any Sox team in the 51 years I have been following them.

 

I can only hope that the holy of holy's, the stupid damn string of home sell outs finally comes crashing down around their ears next year. Frankly since so many of those seats go to the ticket sales companies, in big blocks early there is every chance that it will finally come to a merciful end next year. Hopefully that might wake somebody up over there. Although I am sure they will do anything to preserve it including cut some sort of inside deal to cover any outstanding seats. That sell out string is one of the cornerstone's of their branding/marketing effort.

 

Yes, let's also hope this bad taste clears out all the Pink Hats and Scenesters...

 

I think it's fair to say the honeymoon is done and dusted for Henry and Co.

 

Time for Sox fans to get angry.

 

First point of order: I propose we start booing "Sweet Caroline"

[ipot]

Welcome over here Elk! This is actually a pretty cool board IMHO...just a few stragglers :harhar: (kidding).

Beckett has always seemed like a stubborn punk to me..talented, but a stubborn punk. Maybe a new no nonsense manager would be able to keep that stubborness at bay. If we could get a real ace pitcher, Lester and Beckett would be fine as long as they tow the line.

As for Lackey, he needs to go at all costs, even if it means eating his contract.

 

More stragglers floating in, Pumpsie.

 

Lackey must go at all costs. It's a big one, but it's not a lost cause even if they can extract some middling arm for him. If you ate $35M of his salary and dealt him to the Astors for their #4 guy, it would be an UPGRADE.

 

I will say this repeatedly until next season starts: Lester worries me.

 

But, right now, this team needs to get its FO in order and find leadership there first.

[iortiz]

Wow!! I thought that this only happened in soccer teams.

 

Again, who the hell was leading, commanding and managing this team?

[FredLynn]

More stragglers floating in, Pumpsie.

 

Lackey must go at all costs. It's a big one, but it's not a lost cause even if they can extract some middling arm for him. If you ate $35M of his salary and dealt him to the Astors for their #4 guy, it would be an UPGRADE.

 

I will say this repeatedly until next season starts: Lester worries me.

 

But, right now, this team needs to get its FO in order and find leadership there first.

 

Who would want to accept Lackey, the worst starting pitcher in baseball statistically, for anybody? Whoever takes that trade is taking a step down in talent level. I think that he is going to have to be released eventually.

I am more worried about Beckett next year than Lester. I think Lester is still capable of having a good year. This year was not great for him, for sure, but he will be back. Beckett, on the other hand, is a punk with a crappy attitude who is likely to react to all the bad publicity he is receiving. I expect a poor season from him. We should plan to get rid of him after this season in preparation for the 2013 team, the next year that we will be relevant IMO.