2011-2012 Offseason Thread

[iortiz]

This is a f***ing shame. Seriously' date=' to let Wheeler go on a friggen minor league contract? They get no picks, and they lose a guy who would have been a bargain. I think this is the worst move of the offseason by the Red Sox front office so far.[/quote']

 

+1

[a700hitter]

This is a f***ing shame. Seriously' date=' to let Wheeler go on a friggen minor league contract? They get no picks, and they lose a guy who would have been a bargain. I think this is the worst move of the offseason by the Red Sox front office so far.[/quote']Let's recap some of Ben's gaffes or missteps. We'll start this one.

 

1. Losing Wheeler to the Guardians on a minor league deal and getting no compensation pick

2. Admitting that he didn't know that the White Sox were making Sergio Santos available. He ends up on Toronto.

3. Offering Ortiz arbitration hamstringing the team's finances

 

I still think #3 is the worst mistake.

[User Name]

So it would have been better to get Sergio Santos than Bailey?

 

And Wheeler? He pitched garbage innings to a 4.38 ERA. Worst mistake? GTFO

[SoxFanForsyth]

Wheeler was hurt during the 1st half. 2nd half he came back and threw to a 3.43 ERA.

[User Name]

Still a garbage-innings pitcher. He signed a minor league deal for a reason. If he's so good, why didn't he get major league contract?

[iortiz]

Wheeler was hurt during the 1st half. 2nd half he came back and threw to a 3.43 ERA.

 

Yup. He could be a very solid arm in our BP.

[User Name]

"Could" being the operative word here.

 

If signing Wheeler was going to block Alex Wilson from getting a shot on the 2012 BP, then f*** him. Enough with the FA bullpen busts.

[VA Sox Fan]

So it would have been better to get Sergio Santos than Bailey?

 

And Wheeler? He pitched garbage innings to a 4.38 ERA. Worst mistake? GTFO

 

Yeah...^this^

[VA Sox Fan]

Unless it's a base salary of 5 million and a bunch of incentives which Oswalt doesn't want to deal with.

 

But as a700 said, what do we know, because we do not run the ballclub and do not know the specifications of the offer.

 

Another good point.

[iortiz]

Still a garbage-innings pitcher. He signed a minor league deal for a reason. If he's so good' date=' why didn't he get major league contract?[/quote']

 

That's the disjunctive, why in the hell did not we sign this guy.?

 

He is not a garbage pitcher. Want Garbage? Look at our current "depth". Be objective.

[User Name]

That's the disjunctive, why in the hell did not we sign this guy.?

 

He is not a garbage pitcher. Want Garbage? Look at our current "depth". Be objective.

 

That seems to be a pretty foreign concept to you given the concept of the discussion.

 

Objectively, Wheeler is not that good. He got a minor league contract, and if the Sox sign an SP (and we should assume they will), then the Sox would have one more BP spot because one of Aceves/Bard would go back to the 'pen. Now, if they don't sign an SP, i will be the first to admit they should have gotten another BP arm.

 

Do you give that spot to an aging Wheeler or a young, farm guy like Wilson? Be objective here.

[Palodios]

Still a garbage-innings pitcher. He signed a minor league deal for a reason. If he's so good' date=' why didn't he get major league contract?[/quote']

 

From 2008- 2010, he pitched to a 3.30 ERA, sub 1.00 WHIP, sub .200 BAA all while playing on the worst offense of the AL East. I'd be surprised if Papelbon had those stats for those years. All signs pointed to him being able to do that again, and they discarded him for what would have probably been only 2-3 million.

[User Name]

From 2008- 2010' date=' he pitched to a 3.30 ERA, sub 1.00 WHIP, sub .200 BAA all while playing on the worst offense of the AL East. I'd be surprised if Papelbon had those stats for those years. All signs pointed to him being able to do that again, and they discarded him for what would have probably been only 2-3 million.[/quote']

 

The problem with Wheeler is two-fold:

 

1) He didn't fare very well with the Red Sox, regardless of the 1st-2nd half splits.

 

2) Let's assume the Sox sign a SP, which moves one of Bard/Aceves to the pen, which would leave us with a BP of:

 

Bailey

Melancon

Bard/Aceves

Morales

Albers

Doubront

 

Do you really wanna block that 7th spot with an aging guy when you can have a competition between some of the kids looking to pitch in the bigs?

 

One of the biggest problems for the Sox in recent years (and jung will agree with me here) is the Sox blocking their future BP pieces with older FA pitchers. Even the Yankees have learned their lesson, letting guys like Robertson carve a place for themselves on the roster.

 

The Red Sox should do the same.

[jacksonianmarch]

Albers shouldnt be blocking anybody. He was the balls in the first half, but reverted back to his standard s***** self the second half. He shouldnt have a guaranteed spot in the sox pen. Morales also. He had a good season last yr, but he's one pitch away from disaster at all times and hasnt shown consistency ever.

[iortiz]

That seems to be a pretty foreign concept to you given the concept of the discussion.

 

Objectively, Wheeler is not that good. He got a minor league contract, and if the Sox sign an SP (and we should assume they will), then the Sox would have one more BP spot because one of Aceves/Bard would go back to the 'pen. Now, if they don't sign an SP, i will be the first to admit they should have gotten another BP arm.

 

Do you give that spot to an aging Wheeler or a young, farm guy like Wilson? Be objective here.

 

Well, I just checked out at the dictionary and I was looking for "disyuntiva" (spanish)... I'm not sure if this is the correct word (disjunctive)... Maybe this is not the correct word, maybe I'm wrong, sorry.

 

Anyway... Nobody is saying that he is an elite or superstar reliever, but IMO he is above the average relievers, and could help us a lot given the circumstances. I do not think he is garbage. Miller, Atchison, Jenks, etc. they are garbage to me at this point. Who do you prefer, Miller or Wheeler in the BP?

 

About Wilson? Honestly I like both in our BP.

[Elktonnick]

From 2008- 2010' date=' he pitched to a 3.30 ERA, sub 1.00 WHIP, sub .200 BAA all while playing on the worst offense of the AL East. I'd be surprised if Papelbon had those stats for those years. All signs pointed to him being able to do that again, and they discarded him for what would have probably been only 2-3 million.[/quote']

 

Losing Wheeler like that was a"rookie" mistake by Ben without a doubt. Wasn't his first and won't be his last. That being said ,if he doesn't get a starter after trading Scuturo, losing Wheeler will be small patatoes in the grief falling on Ben's head.

[iortiz]

From 2008- 2010' date=' he pitched to a 3.30 ERA, sub 1.00 WHIP, sub .200 BAA all while playing on the worst offense of the AL East. I'd be surprised if Papelbon had those stats for those years. All signs pointed to him being able to do that again, and they discarded him for what would have probably been only 2-3 million.[/quote']

 

This is definitely not garbage. Sorry UN?, I think you overreacted a bit here.

[Palodios]

2) Let's assume the Sox sign a SP, which moves one of Bard/Aceves to the pen, which would leave us with a BP of:

 

Bailey

Melancon

Bard/Aceves

Morales

Albers

Doubront

 

Do you really wanna block that 7th spot with an aging guy when you can have a competition between some of the kids looking to pitch in the bigs?

 

Errr... what?

 

Giving a one year contract to a 34 year old so a guy with a 5.00 career ERA can pitch is not blocking anyone.

[User Name]

Albers shouldnt be blocking anybody. He was the balls in the first half' date=' but reverted back to his standard s***** self the second half. He shouldnt have a guaranteed spot in the sox pen. Morales also. He had a good season last yr, but he's one pitch away from disaster at all times and hasnt shown consistency ever.[/quote']

 

Who's to say that Albers won't be consistent in 2012?

 

Also, Morales shouldn't have a spot in the BP?

 

Well, I just checked out at the dictionary and I was looking for "disyuntiva" (spanish)... I'm not sure if this well applied here... Maybe this is not the correct word, maybe I'm wrong, sorry.

 

Anyway... Nobody is saying that he is an elite or superstar reliever, but IMO he is above the average relievers, and could help us a lot given the circumstances. I do not think he is garbage. Miller, Atchison, Jenks, etc. they are garbage to me at this point. Who do you prefer, Miller or Wheeler in the BP?

 

About Wilson? Honestly I like both in our BP.

 

We can agree to disagree here. I think that Wheeler is not that good anymore, but i could be wrong. Him getting a minor-leage deal tells me he's not held in high regard anymore. But i could be wrong obviously.

[User Name]

Errr... what?

 

Giving a one year contract to a 34 year old so a guy with a 5.00 career ERA can pitch is not blocking anyone.

 

You do know that Wheeler is smack-dab in the middle of his decline phase? I don't buy his awesomeness and solidness if he's getting a minor-league deal from the Guardians.

[Palodios]

Who's to say that Albers won't be consistent in 2012?

 

Also, Morales shouldn't have a spot in the BP?

 

 

 

We can agree to disagree here. I think that Wheeler is not that good anymore, but i could be wrong. Him getting a minor-leage deal tells me he's not held in high regard anymore. But i could be wrong obviously.

 

For some strange reason, Dan Wheeler is one of those players that is severely underrated in the majors. He only got a 1/3 contract at age 33, coming off those three VERY good years with Tampa. Scott Boras would have gotten him a 3/30 contract and an opportunity to close with those numbers.

[Palodios]

You do know that Wheeler is smack-dab in the middle of his decline phase? I don't buy his awesomeness and solidness if he's getting a minor-league deal from the Guardians.

 

Albers's CAREER is a decline phase. I wasn't expecting him to dominate, I was expecting him to be a great 6th inning option for 2 million, with maybe a 3.75 ERA.

[User Name]

For some strange reason' date=' Dan Wheeler is one of those players that is severely underrated in the majors. He only got a 1/3 contract at age 33, coming off those three VERY good years with Tampa. Scott Boras would have gotten him a 3/30 contract and an opportunity to close with those numbers.[/quote']

 

The reason he's underrated is because he's very much a matchup reliever. Lefties have fed off him over his career, so whoever is managing needs to watch out if there's a lefty coming up when he comes in to pitch.

[jacksonianmarch]

Who's to say that Albers won't be consistent in 2012?

 

Also, Morales shouldn't have a spot in the BP?

 

 

 

We can agree to disagree here. I think that Wheeler is not that good anymore, but i could be wrong. Him getting a minor-leage deal tells me he's not held in high regard anymore. But i could be wrong obviously.

 

Both Albers and Morales should come to camp with a spot to win, but if they look like dogshit, I dont think they should be guaranteed a spot

[iortiz]

For some strange reason' date=' Dan Wheeler is one of those players that is severely underrated in the majors. He only got a 1/3 contract at age 33, coming off those three VERY good years with Tampa. [b']Scott Boras would have gotten him a 3/30 contract and an opportunity to close with those numbers[/b].

 

You bet. I hate Boras but we have to give him credit, he is an old f***ing jackal in baseball business.

[Palodios]

The reason he's underrated is because he's very much a matchup reliever. Lefties have fed off him over his career' date=' so whoever is managing needs to watch out if there's a lefty coming up when he comes in to pitch.[/quote']

 

Absolutely, but Francona is gone. We won't have to watch bad matchups anymore. Part of Wheeler's pitching problems last year were from Francona's complete inability to use him correctly.

[User Name]

Albers's CAREER is a decline phase. I wasn't expecting him to dominate' date=' I was expecting him to be a great 6th inning option for 2 million, with maybe a 3.75 ERA.[/quote']

 

Then why'd he get a minor-league deal from the Guardians? If you can make sense of that, i'd gladly relinquish my argument.

 

Also, they have other possible bullpen candidates for the 6th and 7th spot than Albers, like Alex Wilson, Mike Bowden (i know, i know people hate him), and the recently acquired Mortensen.

 

The good thing about this guys is that they're not only making league minimum, but some of 'em have options remaining. That's a boon to roster flexibility.

 

Hey, Wheeler could go out and dominate, but i've never really thought much of him.

[User Name]

Absolutely' date=' but Francona is gone. We won't have to watch bad matchups anymore. Part of Wheeler's pitching problems last year were from Francona's complete inability to use him correctly.[/quote']

 

This is a fair point, but the fact that he can't get lefties out remains. They should try to find relievers who can get out batters regardless of handedness.

[User Name]

Both Albers and Morales should come to camp with a spot to win' date=' but if they look like dogshit, I dont think they should be guaranteed a spot[/quote']

 

IF they look like a dogshit. This is fair.

[Palodios]

Then why'd he get a minor-league deal from the Guardians? If you can make sense of that, i'd gladly relinquish my argument.

 

Also, they have other possible bullpen candidates for the 6th and 7th spot than Albers, like Alex Wilson, Mike Bowden (i know, i know people hate him), and the recently acquired Mortensen.

 

The good thing about this guys is that they're not only making league minimum, but some of 'em have options remaining. That's a boon to roster flexibility.

 

Hey, Wheeler could go out and dominate, but i've never really thought much of him.

 

This is all assuming the team stays healthy all year. Buchholz/Bard won't break 160 innings. Bailey will be around 40-50. There will be openings in this roster, and at 2 million, I wish they would have given him a shot.