2011-2012 Offseason Thread

[jung]

Jenks may really force their hand now. Although he was slated for the pen he occupied one of those spots where a guy from Pawtucket could come up into middle relief or "maybe" start. It is still one body down that they just could not afford as the season has not even started yet.

 

It would be easier to figure out if we knew how many of those farm system arms they are willing to tolerate coming up this year and/or how serious they are about Wake actually being some sort of a security blanket.

[a700hitter]

As I said, the top tier pitchers weren't in this team's price range, and never were, even if Ortiz left. Gio Gonzalez would have been a huge ripoff with his terrible terrible splits. I still haven't seen any players that the Red Sox actually were after come off the market.

 

 

On another note, what about Malholm? It seems like everyone is quiet on him.

I don't view Kuroda or Jackson or even an old injury prone Oswalt as top tier pitchers. They are IMO most definitely in the second tier, and we can't afford them. Once you dip into the third tier, you don't know what you are getting. They are just warm bodies who, if you are very lucky, can take the ball every 5th day. They are usually not good at all. Maholm is a warm body with a live arm, but he is not good.

 

 

With regard to your optimistic outlook about Bard, we're all hoping that he transitions well to starting, but the truth is no one, not even Sox management, knows how this will turn out. He could be very solid. He could blow up. This could ruin his career like it did to Joba. We just don't know. We also don't know about Aceves. The odds are against both adapting well, pitching effectively and being durable enough to give us 175-200 innings. They need one more solid starter so they don't have to roll the dice on 2 relievers making the transition to starting. I don't think Maholm is the answer.

[sleepyhollow]

MLB Power Rankings: Angels rise to the top

 

 

 

Spending roughly $330 million on two players doesn’t guarantee the Angels will win the World Series, reach the playoffs or even have a winning season.

 

But Arte Moreno's surprising spending spree does make the Angels No. 1 in the new year's first Power Rankings—the first time in recent memory the top two spots belong to a division that isn’t the AL East.

 

1. Los Angeles Angels. The mega-bucks and the buzz are going to Albert Pujols and C.J. Wilson, but don't forget super prospect Mike Trout is ready and Kendrys Morales could be back.

 

2. Texas Rangers. The two-time defending AL champs have everything but a dominant No. 1 starter, and they hope Yu Darvish can fill that role. But he needs time.

 

3. Detroit Tigers. One more starter would be nice, but any team led by Justin Verlander and Miguel Cabrera cannot complain.

 

4. New York Yankees. The AL's winningest team in 2011 has added only one player to its major league roster, a Rule 5 pick. But the Yankees haven't lost anyone, either.

 

5. St. Louis Cardinals. The return of Adam Wainwright and the addition of Carlos Beltran could make them even better than the team that won the World Series. Yes, we know Pujols is gone.

 

6. Philadelphia Phillies. Their NLDS loss to the Cardinals exposed a lineup that isn’t what it used to be. But they haven't lost that much. They led the majors with 102 wins, and their trio of aces remains in its prime.

 

 

7. Boston Red Sox. The September collapse will serve as a wake-up call. They were the best team in the majors for most of last season, and they had more than their share of injuries

 

8. Atlanta Braves. Yes, they collapsed at season's end. Still, no team has more young talent on its roster.

 

9. Tampa Bay Rays. Fantastic finish aside, you don't really think they're better than the Red Sox, do you? Especially not at the moment, when they don't have a first baseman or DH.

 

10. Arizona Diamondbacks. Trading for Trevor Cahill upgrades a solid rotation, and their lineup, the division's best last year, will be even stronger with Stephen Drew's return.

 

11. Miami Marlins. Give the new-look Fish credit for spending big—and wisely—on Jose Reyes, Mark Buehrle and Heath Bell. But watch out. Having Ozzie Guillen direct a show that includes Hanley Ramirez and Carlos Zambrano is a guarantee for fireworks, not all of them fun.

 

12. San Francisco Giants. They should have done more for the offense than trade for Melky Cabrera and Angel Pagan, but their pitching staff remains as strong as any. Getting Buster Posey back will help more than a little.

 

13. Cincinnati Reds. Admire their aggressiveness in dealing for Mat Latos and give them their due for having the best hitter (Joey Voto) in the NL Central. But even after they find a closer, questions will remain at shortstop, third base and left field.

 

14. Washington Nationals. They will be a force soon enough. In the meantime, a healthy Stephen Strasburg and the arrival of Gio Gonzalez will make them a fun team to watch grow.

 

15. Los Angeles Dodgers. To finish with a winning season despite their off-the-field distractions was impressive. Not being able to pay a newcomer more than $3 million in 2012 wasn’t.

 

16. Toronto Blue Jays. Trading for closer Sergio Santos was a typically strong Alex Anthopoulos move, but the Blue Jays remain a blockbuster away from pulling close to the big boys.

 

17. Cleveland Guardians. If Ubaldo Jimenez regains his dominance, Derek Lowe commands his sinker and Grady Sizemore gets healthy, the Tribe should take another step forward. Heck, they'd take their chances if you could assure them two of the three.

 

18. Milwaukee Brewers. Losing Prince Fielder is a huge blow, but they knew that was coming. Ryan Braun's surprising suspension could bury them by Memorial Day.

 

19. Kansas City Royals. Their top position prospects have shown they belong. Now comes the tough part: Building a rotation that can help them compete with the Tigers.

 

20. Colorado Rockies. Signing Michael Cuddyer was a nice move, but their lineup wasn't the issue. Their rotation was, and still is.

 

21. Pittsburgh Pirates. Making Erik Bedard, Casey McGehee and Nate McLouth your key acquisitions doesn't seem like the best way to build on last year's success, as limited as that success was.

 

22. Chicago Cubs. As thrilled as Cubs fans are to be done with Big Z, signing Fielder would make a far greater impact. For now and later.

 

23. Minnesota Twins. A sure bet: Joe Mauer will return to being Joe Mauer. Not so sure: Justin Morneau ever being completely clear of concussion symptoms.

 

24. Chicago White Sox. Rebuilding is just another way of saying, "Man, I wish I hadn't throw away more than $100 million on Alex Rios and Jake Peavy."

 

25. Seattle Mariners. Trading for John Jaso isn’t likely to turn around the majors' lowest-scoring offense for the past two seasons

 

.26. Baltimore Orioles. All new GM Dan Duquette has done to improve the majors' worst pitching has been to sign Japanese lefthander Tsuyoshi Wada. That probably isn’t enough.

 

27. New York Mets. Any chance of a winning season rests on the left shoulder of Johan Santana. Good luck.

 

28. San Diego Padres. What they gained in offense by acquiring Carlos Quentin and Yonder Alonso, they lost more in pitching with the departures of Latos, Bell and even Aaron Harang.

 

29. Houston Astros. It doesn't take a director of decision sciences to figure out why the Astros were the worst team in the land. One reason: Astros hitters walked the fewest times in the majors, while Astros pitchers had the second-highest walk total. Another: They traded their two best players.

 

30. Oakland A's. At least the Astros haven't given up on 2012 already.

 

 

http://aol.sportingnews.com/mlb/story/2012-01-05/mlb-power-rankings-angels-rise-to-the-top

[SoxSport]

I don't view Kuroda or Jackson or even an old injury prone Oswalt as top tier pitchers. They are IMO most definitely in the second tier, and we can't afford them. Once you dip into the third tier, you don't know what you are getting. They are just warm bodies who, if you are very lucky, can take the ball every 5th day. They are usually not good at all. Maholm is a warm body with a live arm, but he is not good.

 

 

With regard to your optimistic outlook about Bard, we're all hoping that he transitions well to starting, but the truth is no one, not even Sox management, knows how this will turn out. He could be very solid. He could blow up. This could ruin his career like it did to Joba. We just don't know. We also don't know about Aceves. The odds are against both adapting well, pitching effectively and being durable enough to give us 175-200 innings. They need one more solid starter so they don't have to roll the dice on 2 relievers making the transition to starting. I don't think Maholm is the answer.

 

With Jenks looking shakey, agree it looks like they still need pitching. It's not a great FA year for starting pitchers--next year is much better--but they are coming up a bit short right now, even with two good additions to the bullpen.

 

They should be looking to trade for a starter. It doesn't make much sense to put all your eggs in Bard being a #4 starter--he might fail, or they might need him for the BP. I don't like any of the FA starters left out there for the money they want. They can get better value trading.

[SoxSport]

The kiss of death is to be the biggest spender (thanks to Fox TV Sports) and go to the top in the media Power Rankings. Last year it was the Red Sox. Money is no guarantee of success in baseball--especially with a bad playoff system that rarely results in the best team winning.

 

Arte Moreno "moved" the Angels team to LA and then signed a TV contract with Fox which gives him an extra $100 million a year to spend. Throwing that TV money at Pujols and Wilson should have come as no surprise. He probably isn't through yet.

 

 

MLB Power Rankings: Angels rise to the top

 

 

 

Spending roughly $330 million on two players doesn’t guarantee the Angels will win the World Series, reach the playoffs or even have a winning season.

 

But Arte Moreno's surprising spending spree does make the Angels No. 1 in the new year's first Power Rankings—the first time in recent memory the top two spots belong to a division that isn’t the AL East.

 

1. Los Angeles Angels. The mega-bucks and the buzz are going to Albert Pujols and C.J. Wilson, but don't forget super prospect Mike Trout is ready and Kendrys Morales could be back.

[FredLynn]

I would put the Red Sox below the Rays and Braves, in the #9 spot.

We just don't have a very good team this year.

[User Name]

The Red Sox have the best offense in the Majors, an excellent top three in the rotation, and good defense. As of right now they're "very good" and could win most divisions in the Majors. Saying otherwise is laughable at best.

 

Not saying they don't need to improve, specially to compete in the AL East. But come on. The glass CAN BE half full.

[FredLynn]

The Red Sox have the best offense in the Majors, an excellent top three in the rotation, and good defense. As of right now they're "very good" and could win most divisions in the Majors. Saying otherwise is laughable at best.

 

Not saying they don't need to improve, specially to compete in the AL East. But come on. The glass CAN BE half full.

 

You won't be doing as much laughing in August.

[jacksonianmarch]

The sox are good, but the reason why I agree with this article is the fact that 2 yrs in a row they have been pretty banged up and the personnel that had been on the DL hasnt changed much.

[User Name]

I wasn't arguing the fact that they're #7. I'm arguing the fact that the team is not good. If they can improve the conditioning of the recurring cast you mentioned, some of the problems from the last two years could be alleviated. But injury problems or no injury problems, the Red Sox are a good team.

[FredLynn]

I wasn't arguing the fact that they're #7. I'm arguing the fact that the team is not good. If they can improve the conditioning of the recurring cast you mentioned' date=' some of the problems from the last two years could be alleviated. But injury problems or no injury problems, the Red Sox are a good team.[/quote']

 

"Good" is a relative term. I don't think that we are "as good" as either the Rays or the Yankees....or the Rangers or the Tigers or the Angels. Compared to the Orioles we are "good". We should be able to beat them out. We will battle the Jays for third place this year.

[seabeachfred]

Well we all pretty much agree that we need another quality starting pitcher because I think the risk is too great with two relievers suddenly thrust into the firing line as starters. I also think we need another relief pitcher as Jenks once again looks like he isn't going to be much help. The way I see it is this:

 

1. We need another quality starter and the sooner the better, and throw in a reliever in as well.

2. We need our "Big Three" to stay on course all season and all in one piece.

3. We finally need some good health from our lineup and comebacks from Crawford and Youkilis

4. Throw in a little luck going our way. The AL East is winnable despite what my pal Pumpsie says.

 

Someone ask him of the predictions I made for last season. I think these things up above are doable.

[User Name]

"Good" is a relative term. I don't think that we are "as good" as either the Rays or the Yankees....or the Rangers or the Tigers or the Angels. Compared to the Orioles we are "good". We should be able to beat them out. We will battle the Jays for third place this year.

 

Whatever you say Doomsday Device.

[User Name]

Well we all pretty much agree that we need another quality starting pitcher because I think the risk is too great with two relievers suddenly thrust into the firing line as starters. I also think we need another relief pitcher as Jenks once again looks like he isn't going to be much help. The way I see it is this:

 

1. We need another quality starter and the sooner the better, and throw in a reliever in as well.

2. We need our "Big Three" to stay on course all season and all in one piece.

3. We finally need some good health from our lineup and comebacks from Crawford and Youkilis

4. Throw in a little luck going our way. The AL East is winnable despite what my pal Pumpsie says.

 

Someone ask him of the predictions I made for last season. I think these things up above are doable.

 

Give me number four and i'm set.

[FredLynn]

Well we all pretty much agree that we need another quality starting pitcher because I think the risk is too great with two relievers suddenly thrust into the firing line as starters. I also think we need another relief pitcher as Jenks once again looks like he isn't going to be much help. The way I see it is this:

 

1. We need another quality starter and the sooner the better, and throw in a reliever in as well.

2. We need our "Big Three" to stay on course all season and all in one piece.

3. We finally need some good health from our lineup and comebacks from Crawford and Youkilis

4. Throw in a little luck going our way. The AL East is winnable despite what my pal Pumpsie says.

 

Someone ask him of the predictions I made for last season. I think these things up above are doable.

 

I think you predicted 97 wins Fred..or was it 99. I predicted 94 wins, but I think Muggah was closest to the actual number we ended up with.

Its too soon to predict wins as the Sox are not yet finished rummaging through the scrap heap of has-been pitchers. Its not unreasonable, though, to expect about as many wins as last year.

[Elktonnick]

"Good" is a relative term. I don't think that we are "as good" as either the Rays or the Yankees....or the Rangers or the Tigers or the Angels. Compared to the Orioles we are "good". We should be able to beat them out. We will battle the Jays for third place this year.

 

If Beckett, Buccholtz and Lester don't get hurt the Sox have good starting pitching but have big questions at 4 and 5. Their bull pen is incomplete to questionable. Another big question is can those three starters stay healthy. Both probability and their own medical histories say otherwise. Offesnively the sox will score runs again. But as we have seen offense alone gets you third place in the ALE. On paper this team is still worse then the team that ended the year. The upgrade at manager may make a difference.

 

Is this team good enough to win. Perhaps but only if the Rays, Yankees are worse. On paper, they aren't good enought to win the division. With the upgrade to the Angels the question becomes are the good enough to win the (or a) wild card. Maybe, but not with the team as it is currently composed. Their defense on the left side is average at best sometimes poor given Scutoro's limited range and weak arm. Behind the plate Salty has improved somewhat but no one will mistake him for a Molina. If Tek comes back (OMG) then forget about it. Shoppach will throw out some runners but only if the pitchers learn how to hold runners and then in only the fifty or sixty games he'll play. Overall assessment this an above average team, nothing more. Certainly not the best team the Red Sox have fielded during the Henry era. It could just as easily be the worst.

[example1]

If Beckett, Buccholtz and Lester don't get hurt the Sox have good starting pitching but have big questions at 4 and 5. Their bull pen is incomplete to questionable. Another big question is can those three starters stay healthy. Both probability and their own medical histories say otherwise. Offesnively the sox will score runs again. But as we have seen offense alone gets you third place in the ALE. On paper this team is still worse then the team that ended the year. The upgrade at manager may make a difference.

 

Is this team good enough to win. Perhaps but only if the Rays, Yankees are worse. On paper, they aren't good enought to win the division. With the upgrade to the Angels the question becomes are the good enough to win the (or a) wild card. Maybe, but not with the team as it is currently composed. Their defense on the left side is average at best sometimes poor given Scutoro's limited range and weak arm. Behind the plate Salty has improved somewhat but no one will mistake him for a Molina. If Tek comes back (OMG) then forget about it. Shoppach will throw out some runners but only if the pitchers learn how to hold runners and then in only the fifty or sixty games he'll play. Overall assessment this an above average team, nothing more. Certainly not the best team the Red Sox have fielded during the Henry era. It could just as easily be the worst.

 

I just cancelled my baseball fandom for 2012. Thanks for the heads up that things are going to turn out poorly Elktonnick.

 

On paper, on paper, on paper. That's all debatable anyway, but its also a silly way to evaluate the team.

[Elktonnick]

I just cancelled my baseball fandom for 2012. Thanks for the heads up that things are going to turn out poorly Elktonnick.

 

On paper, on paper, on paper. That's all debatable anyway, but its also a silly way to evaluate the team.

 

Of course it is all debatable. It's a forum. That's what one does in a forum. On paper is the only way to evaluate during the hot stove. Just because my view may be a bit more pessimistic doesn't mean I won't bleed red for this team as I have every year since 1953. They may surprise or they may upgrade. But they are the worst team the red sox have fielded since 2004. Of that I am convinced.

[example1]

Of course it is all debatable. It's a forum. That's what one does in a forum. On paper is the only way to evaluate during the hot stove. Just because my view may be a bit more pessimistic doesn't mean I won't bleed red for this team as I have every year since 1953. They may surprise or they may upgrade. But they are the worst team the red sox have fielded since 2004. Of that I am convinced.

 

In the spirit of debating, I'll just say you are wrong.

 

The worst team fielded since 2004? Ha!

[Elktonnick]

In the spirit of debating, I'll just say you are wrong.

 

The worst team fielded since 2004? Ha!

 

Do you believe this team is better right now then the team that ended the year?

[NativeBostonian]

Of course it is all debatable. It's a forum. That's what one does in a forum. On paper is the only way to evaluate during the hot stove. Just because my view may be a bit more pessimistic doesn't mean I won't bleed red for this team as I have every year since 1953. They may surprise or they may upgrade. But they are the worst team the red sox have fielded since 2004. Of that I am convinced.

 

if we field anything like the village idiots that we had in 2004, which by the way, won the World Series; then I would be pretty happy with that team.

[NativeBostonian]

At least that 2004 had a hart!

[Elktonnick]

if we field anything like the village idiots that we had in 2004' date=' which by the way, won the World Series; then I would be pretty happy with that team.[/quote']

 

The 04 team was a much better team than this one.

[NativeBostonian]

The 04 team was a much better team than this one.

 

Talent wise no, they weren't. But they do have something that this team doesn't have, chemistry and a desire to win. I mean come on, you can't tell, that on paper you would take Kevin Millar over Adrian Gonzalez. Only if we could put the 04 teams attitude into the 2012 team.

[FredLynn]

Talent wise no' date=' they weren't. But they do have something that this team doesn't have, chemistry and a desire to win.[/quote']

 

No, they were MUCH better relative to the competition. We finished THIRD in the AL in pitching and FIRST in runs scored. We had a devastating lineup with a BA champion batting ninth that year. There were no holes in the lineup, no weaknesses.

This year's team is MUCH worse than them. Its not even close. Add to that the fact that there is no team chemistry (yet) and it adds up to a very disappointing season if your expectations are too high. We will battle for a playoff spot, and possibly even win one, but we won't make it past the first round. Success this year should be kept in proper perspective. Baby steps forward. Maybe we can win our first playoff game in four years; maybe not.

The sacrifices made this year should add up to better teams in the future though, if the FO plays its cards right. Just not this year.

[Elktonnick]

Talent wise no' date=' they weren't. But they do have something that this team doesn't have, chemistry and a desire to win.[/quote']

 

What Martinez and Schilling at the top of the rotation Mueller Garciaparra at 3rd and short Ramirez and Ortiz 3 and 4 in the lineup with a young Varitek etc.

 

Talentwise the 04 had much better balance on both sides of the ball. This team is too lefthanded. While it has offense punch, it is weaker defensively and both in the rotation and bull pen

[Elktonnick]

Talent wise no' date=' they weren't. But they do have something that this team doesn't have, chemistry and a desire to win. I mean come on, you can't tell, that on paper you would take Kevin Millar over Adrian Gonzalez. Only if we could put the 04 teams attitude into the 2012 team.[/quote']

 

That is only one position. BTW Milar is more of a team leader then A-Gon.

[NativeBostonian]

No, they were MUCH better relative to the competition. We finished THIRD in the AL in pitching and FIRST in runs scored. We had a devastating lineup with a BA champion batting ninth that year. There were no holes in the lineup, no weaknesses.

This year's team is MUCH worse than them. Its not even close. Add to that the fact that there is no team chemistry (yet) and it adds up to a very disappointing season if your expectations are too high. We will battle for a playoff spot, and possibly even win one, but we won't make it past the first round. Success this year should be kept in proper perspective. Baby steps forward. Maybe we can win our first playoff game in four years; maybe not.

The sacrifices made this year should add up to better teams in the future though, if the FO plays its cards right. Just not this year.

 

I completely disagree. Go down the line of position players that we have now and that we had in 04. You wouldn't pick half of those players to be on your team if you have the options that we have now. If you just forget about the world championship and forget about last year's collapse, for a second and just concentrate on pure numbers. Then there would be no justifying picking Bill Miller over Kevin Youkilis. But, there is no doubt I would definitely take the hart and desire of the 04 team and put them into the waste of talent that we have now.

[MANNYHOF24]

Talent wise no' date=' they weren't. But they do have something that this team doesn't have, chemistry and a desire to win. I mean come on, you can't tell, that on paper you would take Kevin Millar over Adrian Gonzalez.[b'] Only if we could put the 04 teams attitude into the 2012 team.[/b]

 

 

Enter Bobby V.

[FredLynn]

I completely disagree. Go down the line of position players that we have now and that we had in 04. You wouldn't pick half of those players to be on your team if you have the options that we have now. If you just forget about the world championship and forget about last year's collapse' date=' for a second and just concentrate on pure numbers. Then there would be no justifying picking Bill Miller over Kevin Youkilis. But, there is no doubt I would definitely take the hart and desire of the 04 team and put them into the waste of talent that we have now.[/quote']

 

You can disagree, but the facts do not support your position. Your statement about liking Youkilis over Mueller is subjective and is related to only one player. What about Crawford vs Manny? Its a TEAM game. The 2004 TEAM was MUCH better than the 2011 spineless version, relative to the other teams in the league especially. The 2004 team finished FIRST in runs scored with 949, OPS with .832, and was third in pitching with a team ERA of 4.18. This year's spineless version finished first with 875 runs scored and an OPS of .810, BOTH WORSE THAN THE 04 TEAM, and we finished NINTH in overall ERA with an ERA of 4.20. Moreover, the 2004 team won 98 games; this year's spineless version won just 90.

Sorry. In this case you are simply wrong. Its not a matter of opinion when the facts so strongly support a different position. This is called REALITY.