2011-2012 Offseason Thread

[iortiz]

I also agree with Fred's post. The issue for me is that I don't see Ben being up to the challenge of filling the holes. I see no way of getting either a 4th or 5th starter' date=' assuming Bard and Aceves both aren't moved into the rotation, without dealing a Youklis. [b']If the lux tax were such an issue then why re-sign Ortiz.[/b] Their moves so far this off season don't add up. Their strategy when it comes to pitching appears to be quantity over quality hoping for some one to exceed expectations. They aren't going to keep diehard fans like us on the reservation with moves like that.

 

I've been saying this over and over again Elk.

 

As I said, I like Ortiz, who wouldn't want him back?, but out there are a lot of holes to fill first before the DH spot, regardless he can't field, and we are clogged in the books thanks to Theo.

 

Call me pessimist, but the way they are executing in this offseason thus far, makes me wonder whether they even had a solid plan or strategy to face this offseason. Hell, they spent a lot of time in the manager and are about to spend more than the half of the budget in a DH and still a lot of holes to fill.

 

I don't get it. Yes, there's still time but less options each time as the season is getting close.

 

Hopefully I'm wrong and they have everything figured out.

[a700hitter]

At the top of Benny Boy's agenda today was to select the throwback uniforms for the Turn Back the Clock 100 year anniversary of Fenway. No player moves today. Tomorrow he has scheduled meetings with his staff to summarize their meetings at the Winter Meetings. No player moves are on the agenda for tomorrow. On Wednesday, he plans on presenting Ortiz's agent with a formal 2 year offer for a total of $16 million which Ortiz's agent will immediately throw in the garbage. There will be no other player moves on Wednesday. After all that hard work, Benny will probably take a 4 day weekend rest.

[Meh]

We are coming up on the middle of December. When are the Sox going to do something?

 

What have the Rays or Yankees done? Yankees made two rule 5 claims and won the rights to a SS. Rays have done nothing. It's not like everyone around you is making big moves. No one other than the Angels and Marlins are and to a lesser extent the Jays.

[Meh]

I've been saying this over and over again Elk.

 

As I said, I like Ortiz, who wouldn't want him back?, but out there are a lot of holes to fill first before the DH spot, regardless he can't field, and we are clogged in the books thanks to Theo.

 

Call me pessimist, but the way they are executing in this offseason thus far, makes me wonder whether they even had a solid plan or strategy to face this offseason. Hell, they spent a lot of time in the manager and are about to spend more than the half of the budget in a DH and still a lot of holes to fill.

 

I don't get it. Yes, there's still time but less options each time as the season is getting close.

 

Hopefully I'm wrong and they have everything figured out.

 

He's back cause you read the market wrong. Your GM wanted the picks and thought there was no way Ortiz would accept a one year deal and he called your bluff.

[a700hitter]

What have the Rays or Yankees done? Yankees made two rule 5 claims and won the rights to a SS. Rays have done nothing. It's not like everyone around you is making big moves. No one other than the Angels and Marlins are and to a lesser extent the Jays.

Both the Rays and the Yanks made the playoffs last year. Not only have the Sox not added anyone, but they lost a big guy. The Sox are the team that needs to get better to catch the Yanks and Rays. So far, they have gotten worse.

 

BTW: The Yanks did re-sign Freddie Garcia-- not a big move, but he should be in their rotation this season again. The Rays just signed Matt Moore for the next 8 years-- he's got a great looking young arm. They also signed Jose Molina.

[SoxSport]

At the top of Benny Boy's agenda today was to select the throwback uniforms for the Turn Back the Clock 100 year anniversary of Fenway. No player moves today. Tomorrow he has scheduled meetings with his staff to summarize their meetings at the Winter Meetings. No player moves are on the agenda for tomorrow. On Wednesday' date=' he plans on presenting Ortiz's agent with a formal 2 year offer for a total of $16 million which Ortiz's agent will immediately throw in the garbage. There will be no other player moves on Wednesday. After all that hard work, Benny will probably take a 4 day weekend rest.[/quote']

 

On Wednesday, Ben will write on the blackboard 100 times: Why did LL and Henry tell me to give Ortiz arbitration?

 

There may not be a dumber GM move made this year.

[jung]

Well I believe that the guys that have reported here that arbitration offers are no longer binding (or said another way it no longer requires a hand shake deal between a player and a team to overthrow an arbitration move) as I posted earlier that is part of the new CBA and I just don't know if that is one of the clauses due for implementation mid season next year or immediately. They are dividing up many of the stipulations of the new CBA and implementing them on two separate dates.

 

So the Sox may have a little more to bring to the table. I just don't know. Frankly without that hanging over his head I would expect Ortiz to immediately reject 2/16.

 

By the way, I still think having Ortiz around costs to much money but it may not be that simple. Ya' gotta' walk the walk though. If they think they are this offensive juggernaut then I would have thought the money could have been spent more wisely. I think in part Ortiz has looked attractive because they could make the term very short....either one year or two. There are other bodies I would have loved to have seen them use that money on but there is the strong possibility that none were impressive enough for the money they had to deserve deals of three or four years. Would not be unusual for younger players to expect at least a three year if not four year deal.

[a700hitter]

Saito signed with DBacks. Another reliever comes off the board.

[example1]

Now that Saito has been signed I suppose we should just put a ribbon on the offseason and call it a day. I haven't heard his name mentioned here as someone people would be wanting to sign.

 

Regardless, I suspect we will see some moves soon... whether thru trades or cold hard cash.

[jacksonianmarch]

I think Madson is in their crosshairs, but they are waiting for his price to come down. Thing is, he's the best closer left on the market and someone will overpay. I think the sox end up with a guy like Francisco Cordero, since his price wont be too high

[Elktonnick]

On Wednesday' date=' Ben will write on the blackboard 100 times: [b']Why did LL and Henry tell me to give Ortiz arbitration? [/b]

 

There may not be a dumber GM move made this year.

 

I agree. Ben either misread the market for DH's or ownership cut the legs out from under him ( yet again) with the luxury tax limitation.

[jacksonianmarch]

It just doesnt make any sense. You pick up a $6 million option on an aging SS who has a replacement in house and cannot play the position adequately anymore. Then you offer arbitration to an elderly DH coming off his career yr and coming off a $12.5 mil contract. But in the meantime, you let your 30 yr old closer, who right now is having a HOF start to his career, go without a clear replacement. And doing all of this under the guise that you won't exceed the lux tax? Now, I hear the sox are shopping Scutaro? Why in blazes would a team trade for Scutaro without the sox picking up the majority of the tab? He isnt worth $6 million as a SS. Now, they have holes big enough to drive a Mack truck through. You have 2 open slots in your rotation, you now have a green setup man slot into the closers role and you have your everything man (Aceves) slide into the setup role. That leaves a massive gap in the middle of the pen as well as the back of the rotation that you are hoping Franklin Morales and Bobby Jenks can fill?

 

Then there's the school of thought that the sox move Aceves and Bard into the rotation? Aceves was exposed out of the rotation in limited time in NY. He throws all his pitches from the getgo, meaning facing batters more than once in a game will be the death of him. In short stints, he is extremely effective. Over 6-8 innings, he will not be. And Bard was converted to relief because he couldnt do s*** out of the rotation. His stuff got all out of whack when he had to focus on 4 pitches and the windup. They shortened his arsenal, put him in the stretch and voila, he was great again. So this theory takes two solid relievers from a pisspoor pen and moves them into the starting role where they are questionmarks at best. It leaves you with a god awful pen and a "who knows" back of the rotation. The likelihood, in that scenario, would be that the sox fall apart outside of Beckett, Lester and Buchholz.

 

So, in effect, the sox have about $6-8 million dollars to either fill the last 2 spots of their rotation and at least one good pen arm. Or, they have about $6-8 million to spend on an entire bullpen and hope beyond hope that the back of their rotation wont flop. In this division, if the sox dont make some sort of major move, they are toast.

[seabeachfred]

I agree. Ben either misread the market for DH's or ownership cut the legs out from under him ( yet again) with the luxury tax limitation.

 

I still put all this on Cheringpuke. He is the GM and he simply could have used his brain and said NO to arbitration for Ortiz simply on the basis that he would accept it. There are at least six or seven people on this board who said there was no real market for Papi since teams are using the DH to rest regulars and have roving people in that spot. If we knew that how come bumbling Ben didn't? It is one reason I thought that when FrancoMa and Epstein were sent packing we would go out and get a new GM with no connection to the old Ancien Regime. Instead they put a retread in the position, a person who was passed over before so Theo could get the job. Some around here still believe there will be significant movement soon, but right now all we know is the Bozo Ben moves like a tortoise when things need to be done. Hell, it took two months to name a manager, we still don't have a pitching coach and we haven't upgraded our team at all. And what about the compensation issue for Theo? That closing in on three months and still nothing. I said on another board back in 2009 that we would never win anything again with FrancoMa and Epstein in control and in the last three y ears before their departure a lot people agreed with me on that. Right now it seems it would be a miracle if we ever won anything with Cherington running the show. He gives every indication that he is in way over his head and is fast looking like a complete incompentent.

[iortiz]

He's back cause you read the market wrong. Your GM wanted the picks and thought there was no way Ortiz would accept a one year deal and he called your bluff.

 

They better try to sign him for 20/2 otherwise Papi would be eating Ben's lunch.

[iortiz]

At the top of Benny Boy's agenda today was to select the throwback uniforms for the Turn Back the Clock 100 year anniversary of Fenway. No player moves today. Tomorrow he has scheduled meetings with his staff to summarize their meetings at the Winter Meetings. No player moves are on the agenda for tomorrow. On Wednesday' date=' he plans on presenting Ortiz's agent with a formal 2 year offer for a total of $16 million which Ortiz's agent will immediately throw in the garbage. There will be no other player moves on Wednesday. After all that hard work, Benny will probably take a 4 day weekend rest.[/quote']

 

 

I wonder how much is making his assistant...

[iortiz]

I think Madson is in their crosshairs' date=' but they are waiting for his price to come down. Thing is, he's the best closer left on the market and someone will overpay. I think the sox end up with a guy like Francisco Cordero, since his price wont be too high[/quote']

If we give this guy something close to Pap's contract, I'll be more than pissed off.

[iortiz]

It just doesnt make any sense. You pick up a $6 million option on an aging SS who has a replacement in house and cannot play the position adequately anymore. Then you offer arbitration to an elderly DH coming off his career yr and coming off a $12.5 mil contract. But in the meantime, you let your 30 yr old closer, who right now is having a HOF start to his career, go without a clear replacement. And doing all of this under the guise that you won't exceed the lux tax? Now, I hear the sox are shopping Scutaro? Why in blazes would a team trade for Scutaro without the sox picking up the majority of the tab? He isnt worth $6 million as a SS. Now, they have holes big enough to drive a Mack truck through. You have 2 open slots in your rotation, you now have a green setup man slot into the closers role and you have your everything man (Aceves) slide into the setup role. That leaves a massive gap in the middle of the pen as well as the back of the rotation that you are hoping Franklin Morales and Bobby Jenks can fill?

 

Then there's the school of thought that the sox move Aceves and Bard into the rotation? Aceves was exposed out of the rotation in limited time in NY. He throws all his pitches from the getgo, meaning facing batters more than once in a game will be the death of him. In short stints, he is extremely effective. Over 6-8 innings, he will not be. And Bard was converted to relief because he couldnt do s*** out of the rotation. His stuff got all out of whack when he had to focus on 4 pitches and the windup. They shortened his arsenal, put him in the stretch and voila, he was great again. So this theory takes two solid relievers from a pisspoor pen and moves them into the starting role where they are questionmarks at best. It leaves you with a god awful pen and a "who knows" back of the rotation. The likelihood, in that scenario, would be that the sox fall apart outside of Beckett, Lester and Buchholz.

 

So, in effect, the sox have about $6-8 million dollars to either fill the last 2 spots of their rotation and at least one good pen arm. Or, they have about $6-8 million to spend on an entire bullpen and hope beyond hope that the back of their rotation wont flop. In this division, if the sox dont make some sort of major move, they are toast.

 

...and you only missed to mention the RF OF, situation.

 

IMO This is close to be a perfect and objective extract of what has happened with this team since the season finished and our possible scary 2012 scenario if they don't make a major move.

[example1]

If the Red Sox have a good season in 2012 a lot of people here will look pretty silly.

 

The team needs to add a few pieces, but I also think they really are a good team. Only time will tell.

[VA Sox Fan]

If the Red Sox have a good season in 2012 a lot of people here will look pretty silly.

 

The team needs to add a few pieces, but I also think they really are a good team. Only time will tell.

 

This and this ^^

[jacksonianmarch]

They are still a good team, nobody disputes that. They just came into the offseason with some pretty big holes. Those holes got bigger with Papelbon leaving and Lackey going down with TJS. The flexibility to plug those holes has been hamstrung by the sox need to stay under the lux tax (reportedly) and the fact that your GM picked up an overpriced option for your out of position SS and offered arbitration to your over the hill DH. Doesnt mean they wont luck out, hell, the Yanks did by reinventing the fountain of youth with Colon and Garcia. But the likelihood is low that the team as constructed could beat the Yanks and the Rays out for the division.

[jacksonianmarch]

btw, I see the sox signing Hong Chih Kuo. He was just non-tendered by LA after an abysmal season marred by social anxiety disorder. If he gets his head on straight, he's a shut down reliever. Then again, Boston might be the last place you would want to go if you have an anxiety issue

[a700hitter]

I think everyone realizes that the Sox can be a good team if they fill a few holes, i.e. the entire bullpen. Right now we ain't seeing anything and people are worrying. Offering arb to Ortiz and talking about staying under the LT cap doesn't inspire a lot of confidence or hope right now.

[jacksonianmarch]

I think everyone realizes that the Sox can be a good team if they fill a few holes' date=' i.e. the entire bullpen. Right now we ain't seeing anything and people are worrying. Offering arb to Ortiz and talking about staying under the LT cap doesn't inspire a lot of confidence or hope right now.[/quote']

 

That is the point. If nothing was out there about the lux tax limit, then there arent any worries. But if all they have to spend is $6-8 mil for the holes they have, they are in trouble. We'll see if those rumors are true or speculation

[SoxSport]

predictions: The Sox will try to get Darvish, or will sign Madson.

 

Valentine is high on Darvish, and Bobby's Japanese connections should be exploited.

Dice-K may rejuvenate under Valentine. Bard will be the closer if they get Darvish.

 

If they don't get Darvish, they will get a closer and start Bard. For closer, Bailey looks remote--Beane deals his players to the NL (e.g., Cahill). His asking price to AL teams is generally higher. Madson will be signed for $8-10 mil. 3years plus an option year. Ortiz will get a 2 year deal for $20 mil.

[Palodios]

...and you only missed to mention the RF OF' date=' situation.[/quote']

 

What RF OF situation?

[SCM33]

predictions: The Sox will try to get Darvish' date=' [b']or[/b] will sign Madson.

 

Valentine is high on Darvish, and Bobby's Japanese connections should be exploited.

Dice-K may rejuvenate under Valentine. Bard will be the closer if they get Darvish.

 

If they don't get Darvish, they will get a closer and start Bard. For closer, Bailey looks remote--Beane deals his players to the NL (e.g., Cahill). His asking price to AL teams is generally higher. Madson will be signed for $8-10 mil. 3years plus an option year. Ortiz will get a 2 year deal for $20 mil.

 

Yuck and yuck.

 

Apparently the Redsox have not learned from the rest of baseballs mistakes by signing over hyped starting pitchers from Japan to huge lucrative deals. Apparently they havent learned from their own mistakes.

 

....and it makes a ton of sense to pay a guy 10M a year to close in Boston after a 1 year track record closing for his career, yeah that makes sense to pay him 10M. That makes a lot more sense than paying the younger Papelbon the extra dough he wanted after proving he could do it here for the last 6+ years. I guess track records mean nothing if you can save a couple extra bucks.

 

What happens if Madson flops as the closer and hes making 10M per year? Instead of addressing our weakness......which was pitching, they are going to make 2 guys starting pitchers who have little to no experience in those roles. What happens if they get rocked every time they go out?

 

Then we will have 3 SPs, no bullpen and no closer. Keep crying poor like you did coming out of winter meetings guys, dont want to go over that luxury tax threshold....oh no! Anything but that!...........then ownership has the balls to charge $75 dollars for a coffee table book.

 

Stay classy Werner/Lucchini/Henry.

 

 

BTW.....Valentine will not rejuvenate Dice-K....hes never had a good thing to say about the guy and predicted his failure.

[seabeachfred]

If the Red Sox have a good season in 2012 a lot of people here will look pretty silly.

 

The team needs to add a few pieces, but I also think they really are a good team. Only time will tell.

 

Many of us wouldn't mind looking silly if the Red Sox had a good season in 2012 if by a good season you mean a division title and or a long trip in the Playoffs, but very few of us are feeling too high right now since just about nothing has been done to upgrade the team and signing Ortiz took much of the cash we would need to add those few pieces you're talking about. How about quite a few pieces like a RH hitting outfielder, a closer, a solid starting pitcher and a couple of shut down relievers. Ain't gonna happen unless Henry reopens his wallet or suddenly Cherington gets his head on right and starts to make some good trades.

 

In our favor is that both the Yankees and Rays haven't upgraded either but neither one of them had the collapse we did at the end of the season. At least they went off on somewhat of a high while we're still trying to dig out of that debacle called last September.

[SCM33]

If the Red Sox have a good season in 2012 a lot of people here will look pretty silly.

 

The team needs to add a few pieces, but I also think they really are a good team. Only time will tell.

 

I hope you are right.

 

They way I see it, back to back third place finishes.....and they have not done a damn thing to improve themselves.

 

I want to get excited, unfortunately......this is the same group, if not worse that they rolled out to end the season against Baltimore.

[a700hitter]

What RF OF situation?

We have 2 left handed hitters with about 1 combined season of ABs to share RF. I think most people think we need a right handed stick in the OF.

[Palodios]

Yuck and yuck.

 

Apparently the Redsox have not learned from the rest of baseballs mistakes by signing over hyped starting pitchers from Japan to huge lucrative deals. Apparently they havent learned from their own mistakes.

 

 

I read an article recently that talked about this. In a nutshell.... Hey, Bedard is from Canada, so should the Sox stop signing guys from Canada because they have injury problems? Hey, Manny Ramirez was a douchebag, all guys from the DR are douchebags?

 

It works the same way with Darvish. He's from the same country. That's where the similarities end. The thing the Red Sox should definitely make a bid, but any more than 15-20 million would just be silly.