2011-2012 Offseason Thread

[Palodios]

Would you sign Rivera over Papelbon for a 4 year contract these days?

 

There is a reason why the Red Sox don't sign relievers for longer than two years.

[a700hitter]

It sounds like you're forgetting how 2009 and 2011 ended.

Not at all. I'm not knocking Mo at all, just pointing out that he has blown some big games. In the 9th inning fo as long as he was a Red Sox I liked seeing him on the mound in the 9th inning. I can't say that about any sox closer for such an extended period of time.

[example1]

Would you sign Rivera over Papelbon for a 4 year contract these days?

 

I didn't read anything in your post about how long a contract you would sign a guy for. You said multiple times that he might be the best at his position, and I countered with Rivera. That's all.

[a700hitter]

Only time will tell. As of right now, we are missing a huge piece from our bullpen, but the owners have a few more bucks in their pockets. I hope it makes the FO apologists feel all warm and fuzz. iOrtiz, SCM and I just see a big hole in the bullpen and a FO that can't be trusted with extra money. Let's see what they do with the extra $ and how Papelbon does in Philadelphia. Until then, you can stand on your head and you will not convince me that it is a good move.

[Palodios]

So I just took a look at Joe Nathan's stats. He's the real deal. From 2003 to 2009, he has an ERA of 2.02, WHIP of .95, ERA+ of 216. He was recovering from injury in 2011, but I say... he is our guy. Undervalued, true closer who has playoff experience. The more I look at him, the more and more convinced that he is the best option for this team.

[iortiz]

I didn't read anything in your post about how long a contract you would sign a guy for. You said multiple times that he might be the best at his position' date=' and I countered with Rivera. That's all.[/quote']

 

As I said, Mo Is the best closer ever. Today, Pap is arguably the best closer in the neighborhood these days and seems like he will be the best in the position the next 4 years IMO.

 

Agree?

[example1]

The contract he got was very reasonable and it would have taken him to the creaky old age of 34.

 

Tell me this E1, where are we going to find a lock down 8th inning guy like Bard? Answer, we will not. Add to that the fact that Bard may not have the necessary closer mentality and you might very well have weakened the team in the 8th and 9th innings. You like stats. Check the stats for the Sox for games when they were ahead going into the 8th inning. Until Bard and Papelbon melted down at the tail end of their seasons, the record was phenomenal. That 8th and 9th inning stability will be substantially eroded and that will have a cascading effect to an already weak remainder of the bullpen.

 

I can't say I have the answers. I'm just saying that anyone with brains saw this move coming like a slow moving freight-train from a few years back. Papelbon seemed to have wanted out (he didn't "explore" the market for long) and the Sox seemed fine with letting him go.

 

I'm okay with them not paying him more than he's worth. I think you are overvaluing the value of a pitchers "make-up" in the end game. yes, it is important but Jason Motte was the closer for this year's world series, and Neftali Feliz blew his team's most important game. Which would you take first? Feliz, right? Me too.

 

Of course you would. But I don't remember Papelbon blowing the save in the 7th game of a World Series or a deciding game of an ALCS against his teams arch rival. Rivera is great' date=' but papelbon is pretty great in his own right. IOrtiz's point is that Papelbon has more road ahead of him than Mo does.[/quote']

 

I remember Papelbon blowing a lead just a few weeks ago that would have at least guaranteed the Sox game 163, and one a few weeks before that that could have been won. I also remember many nail-biters. When I watch Rivera pitch I see--more often than not--3 batters up and 3 batters down. I see Papelbon letting runners get on and getting out of it. The key is the he gets out of it, but there's a difference. IOrtiz's point was NOT that Papelbon has more road ahead of him; or, if that was his point, he didn't say it until after my post. Since I'm not attached at the right frontal cortex with him like you apparently are, I was unable to read his mind.

 

E1 will never answer your question. Like a politician he answers his own question which is totally different.

 

Oops, I answered him before I saw you put your foot in your mouth. What a dumbass. It's not like this is the type of question I would shy away from.

 

Not at all. I'm not knocking Mo at all' date=' just pointing out that he has blown some big games. In the 9th inning fo as long as he was a Red Sox I liked seeing him on the mound in the 9th inning. I can't say that about any sox closer for such an extended period of time.[/quote']

 

The last two closers the Sox have had were well above average. I'm confident that they can find another one, if they don't have him already.

[Station 13]

So I just took a look at Joe Nathan's stats. He's the real deal. From 2003 to 2009' date=' he has an ERA of 2.02, WHIP of .95, ERA+ of 216. He was recovering from injury in 2011, but I say... he is our guy. Undervalued, true closer who has playoff experience. The more I look at him, the more and more convinced that he is the best option for this team.[/quote']

 

You want to invest how many years? He's going to be 37. Perhaps you didn't see that.

[Palodios]

You want to invest how many years? He's going to be 37. Perhaps you didn't see that.

 

He's 37. 1/8 would probably work just fine.

[a700hitter]

I didn't read anything in your post about how long a contract you would sign a guy for. You said multiple times that he might be the best at his position' date=' and I countered with Rivera. That's all.[/quote']Cute E1. I guess you thought iOrtiz was asking about signing papelbon or Mo only for big games. Yeah right. English may be iOrtiz's 2 nd language, but I think he will pick up on your disingenuous in your answer. He did mention the "next couple of years."

[example1]

As I said, Mo Is the best closer ever. Today, Pap is arguably the best closer these days and seems like he will be the best in the position the next 4 years IMO.

 

Agree?

 

He is arguably the best closer projecting forward the next 4 years. Others might challenge that, including Rivera (who never seems to get old) but Papelbon is very, very good.

 

For every degree that "mind matters" in a closer, Rivera is considerably better than everyone else in the game, still. I would rather have him on the mound when it counts than Papelbon, right now. Your post didn't mention 4 years going forward, though you and a700 high fived each other about my inablity to ready your mind.

[example1]

as I said, If the name is Jackson, no.

 

Pap is not "another" relief pitcher. He is a closer and is argubly the best in the position these days.

 

I would pick Rivera over Papelbon in a big game situation 10 times out of 10.

 

That's not to say Papelbon is bad, he's just not as money as Rivera.

 

Not here he didn't, and this is what I quoted, a700.

 

There's nothing cute about being right.

[iortiz]

Cute E1. I guess you thought iOrtiz was asking about signing papelbon or Mo only for big games. Yeah right. English may be iOrtiz's 2 nd language' date=' but I think he will pick up on your disingenuous in your answer. He did mention the "next couple of years."[/quote']

 

That is exactly what I meant.

 

I feel better. Seems like my English is progressing. :thumbsup:

[example1]

That is exactly what I meant.

 

I feel better. Seems like my English is progressing. :thumbsup:

 

Your English is more than good enough to not confuse "these days" with "for the next 4 years moving forward". You quickly clarified it when pressed.

[a700hitter]

I can't say I have the answers. I'm just saying that anyone with brains saw this move coming like a slow moving freight-train from a few years back. Papelbon seemed to have wanted out (he didn't "explore" the market for long) and the Sox seemed fine with letting him go.

Of course we could see the move coming. We have been critical of the idiots in the FO for 3 years. Just because we can see a stupid decision far down the road doesn't make it right. I don't know how you can't understand that.

 

IOrtiz's point was NOT that Papelbon has more road ahead of him; or' date=' if that was his point, he didn't say it until [i']after[/i] my post. Since I'm not attached at the right frontal cortex with him like you apparently are, I was unable to read his mind.

That was his point. I understood it. You understood what you wanted to think he meant. I'd be honored to share half of iOrtiz's brain as we'd still be twice as smart as everyone else.

 

Oops, I answered him before I saw you put your foot in your mouth. What a dumbass. It's not like this is the type of question I would shy away from.

No, you answered an entirely different question that he didn't ask. How's your other foot taste.

 

The last two closers the Sox have had were well above average. I'm confident that they can find another one' date=' if they don't have him already.[/quote']Really? How did our closers do in 2005?

[Palodios]

He is arguably the best closer projecting forward the next 4 years. Others might challenge that' date=' including Rivera (who never seems to get old) but Papelbon is very, very good. [/quote']

 

Kimbrel, Venters, Chapman, Feliz and Bard all have had phenomenal careers early, and stand a very good chance to outperform Pap moving forward.

[a700hitter]

Kimbrel' date=' Venters, Chapman, Feliz and Bard all have had phenomenal careers early, and stand a very good chance to outperform Pap moving forward.[/quote']Because every reliever that has one good year goes onto have a career like papelbon. How did I miss that? iOrtiz, did you miss that too?

[iortiz]

Of course we could see the move coming. We have been critical of the idiots in the FO for 3 years. Just because we can see a stupid decision far down the road doesn't make it right. I don't know how you can't understand that.

 

That was his point. I understood it. You understood what you wanted to think he meant. I'd be honored to share half of iOrtiz's brain as we'd still be twice as smart as everyone else.

No, you answered an entirely different question that he didn't ask. How's your other foot taste.

 

Really? How did our closers do in 2005?

:thumbsup:

[a700hitter]

Your English is more than good enough to not confuse "these days" with "for the next 4 years moving forward". You quickly clarified it when pressed.

The context of the conversation was whether Papelbon's contract was reasonable. You were either being disingenuous or obtuse.

[Palodios]

Because every reliever that has one good year goes onto have a career like papelbon. How did I miss that? iOrtiz' date=' did you miss that too?[/quote']

 

When Papelbon develops a 105 MPH fastball like Chapman's, let's talk again.

[example1]

Of course we could see the move coming. We have been critical of the idiots in the FO for 3 years. Just because we can see a stupid decision far down the road doesn't make it right. I don't know how you can't understand that.

 

I don't trust your ability to judge baseball or people (idiots). You hold absurdly high standards that nobody could live up to, and it makes you the resident blowhard. Iortiz either hasn't realized this, or he's another version of you. I haven't figured out which yet.

 

 

That was his point. I understood it. You understood what you wanted to think he meant. I'd be honored to share half of iOrtiz's brain as we'd still be twice as smart as everyone else.

 

His point and his statement were two different things. I interpret what he wrote, not what he thought.

 

No, you answered an entirely different question that he didn't ask. How's your other foot taste.

 

Excuse me. I should have said "responded to". His question was so utterly stupid that I assumed it to be rhetorical. Apparently I should have melded-minds with him, like you can.

 

Really? How did our closers do in 2005?

 

Point taken. You are right. 2005 when Foulke was recovering from overuse in 2004. By 2006 they had found their solution.

[iortiz]

Because every reliever that has one good year goes onto have a career like papelbon. How did I miss that? iOrtiz' date=' did you miss that too?[/quote']

 

Seems like I missed that too.

 

Seriously do you guys really think that Bard is ready for the job? Really?

 

In E1's words, Pap is arguably the best closer projecting forward the next 4 years.

 

I'm totally agree with you E1.

[a700hitter]

Firstly' date=' Papelbon will be one month away from 36 when the contract ends, if the option vests. If the option doesn't vest, it already means the contract was a failure, so we have to assume it will vest. And what is wrong with Aceves in the 8th? Nowhere as good as Bard, but he's still a very good option. The problem is filling the #5 starter slot.[/quote']Let's just round up his age to 40 when his contract ends. As Jacko said earlier, you are rationalizing hard here. What battle are you trying to win here? The bullpen has taken a major hit and the owners have more money. You consider that a good thing. Yikes, I think I only need 1/4 of iOrtiz brain to figure out that that is not a good thing.

[Palodios]

Let's just round up his age to 40 when his contract ends. As Jacko said earlier' date=' you are rationalizing hard here. What battle are you trying to win here? The bullpen has taken a major hit and the owners have more money. You consider that a good thing. Yikes, I think I only need 1/4 of iOrtiz brain to figure out that that is not a good thing.[/quote']

 

Seriously, you're using false numbers to back up your argument. We can argue... but don't cheat the discussion with bad numbers.

 

I have made myself incredibly clear time and time and time and time again. This is a big loss for the team, but it was the right move to make. The team still has a solid option for a 9th inning pitcher, and 8th inning pitcher, they just need to fill in a few slots.

[a700hitter]

I don't trust your ability to judge baseball or people (idiots). You hold absurdly high standards that nobody could live up to' date=' and it makes you the resident blowhard. Iortiz either hasn't realized this, or he's another version of you. I haven't figured out which yet.[/quote']You are exactly what is wrong with society today. No one can be wrong. There is no such thing as wrong, especially if you like the person. E1, I'm old school, and I like you, but you are most often wrong.

 

His point and his statement were two different things. I interpret what he wrote' date=' not what he thought. [/quote'] Again, his post was made in the context of discussing papelbon's, contract, not who is the better pitcher in a big game. You were either being disingenuous in your answer or just obtuse.

 

Excuse me. I should have said "responded to". His question was so utterly stupid that I assumed it to be rhetorical. Apparently I should have melded-minds with him' date=' like you can.[/quote']Tsk tsk

 

Point taken. You are right. 2005 when Foulke was recovering from overuse in 2004. By 2006 they had found their solution.

When is the last time that we had a closer that put together 2 very good seasons in a row or two seasons even non consecutively. Pitchers of Papelbon's caliber don't grow on trees.

[example1]

:thumbsup:

 

Let's just round up his age to 40 when his contract ends. As Jacko said earlier' date=' you are rationalizing hard here. What battle are you trying to win here? The bullpen has taken a major hit and the owners have more money. You consider that a good thing. Yikes, I think I only need 1/4 of iOrtiz brain to figure out that that is not a good thing.[/quote']

 

And yet people who are otherwise reasonable disagree with you, including this FO, some posters here, and some national media types. You proceed to belittle other people as if you have never been wrong about anything.

 

Seriously a700, check yourself.

[a700hitter]

Seriously, you're using false numbers to back up your argument. We can argue... but don't cheat the discussion with bad numbers.

 

I have made myself incredibly clear time and time and time and time again. This is a big loss for the team, but it was the right move to make. The team still has a solid option for a 9th inning pitcher, and 8th inning pitcher, they just need to fill in a few slots.

You are the one rounding up his age and counting in his vesting year. If he bombs out in the first 4 years, the 5 th year is not going to vest.

[iortiz]

Seriously, you're using false numbers to back up your argument. We can argue... but don't cheat the discussion with bad numbers.

 

I have made myself incredibly clear time and time and time and time again. This is a big loss for the team, but it was the right move to make. The team still has a solid option for a 9th inning pitcher, and 8th inning pitcher, they just need to fill in a few slots.

 

The name is Bard? When you say this, do you mean it in the short term (2012), mid term (2013-2014) or long term (2015-)?

 

IMO

 

2012 No

2013 Unlikely

2014 50-50

2015 likely

[example1]

Pap is arguably the today's best closer in the game and is only 30.

 

as I said, If the name is Jackson, no.

 

Pap is not "another" relief pitcher. He is a closer and is argubly the best in the position these days.

 

IMO Pap deserves that money. He is arguably the best in the position.

 

Lackey, Jenks, Cameron , D-K, etc.? Not even close.

 

You are missing the point. He is not another reliever. He a closer. he is THE closer' date=' IMO these days.[/quote']

 

 

 

A700, these are the points I was responding to. These are all comments about Papelbon being the best "these days". Nothing about contract length. I was not being disingenuious.

 

I take your claims that I would be that as an insult, frankly.

[a700hitter]

And yet people who are otherwise reasonable disagree with you, including this FO, some posters here, and some national media types. You proceed to belittle other people as if you have never been wrong about anything.

 

Seriously a700, check yourself.

Take your own advice. You are the one who started mocking iOrtiz and me for as you put it "mind melding'"

 

and I guess you don't recall this wonderful compliment:

 

I don't trust your ability to judge baseball or people (idiots). You hold absurdly high standards that nobody could live up to' date=' and it makes you the resident blowhard. Iortiz either hasn't realized this, or he's another version of you. I haven't figured out which yet.[/quote']