2011-2012 Offseason Thread

[VA Sox Fan]

The Red Sox stopped being miserable jokes in 1967. After that' date=' they always had exciting competitive teams (with the exception of the Hobson managerial years). The Yankees on the other hand were jokes until 1974. In the late 60's and early 70's, Dick O'Connell the best Red Sox GM ever, produced stars at an astonishing rate and their teams of the mid and late 70's were exciting powerhouses that had to compete in the same division with 2 other powerhouses- the Yanks and the Orioles. The 1978 team won 99 games-- more than any Theo team. They won Division titles in 3 out of five years from '86 - '90 back in the days when there were only 2 divisions. I don't consider 1 division title in 9 years to be an accomplishment befitting iconic status.[/b']I am not bashing Theo, just putting him in perspective. In his swan song season he managed to produce the biggest joke of a debacle by any Red Sox team in history. In 45 years of rooting for this team, I have never seen anything like it. Theo became a cult figure in New England, but his resume doesn't back it up. Just putting him in perspective. Not bashing. There have been plenty of GMs who have been far worse - too many to list here..

 

 

So after 1967 you NEVER heard about Bambino, 1918, 1975, 1986, Bucky, Buckner or Boone? Wow. That's fk'n amazing condsiering you live in NY.

 

I went to an outdoor concert in 1999 with a Red Sox shirt on and some random tool had to bring up Buckner. Of course, I laughed and told him "how original".

 

You HAVE to be in denial living in NY. I live in VA and got constant s*** until the 2004 ALCS and WS.

 

I'm happy we had Theo and that he helped us win 2 WS. Good luck to him in Chicago and I hope he helps win them a WS. Oh, but that's right, the Red Sox should win EVERY year. My bad.

 

You are too smart to be that full of s***.

[Bellhorn04]

When you have hundreds of millions to spend year in and year out' date=' your judgement can get cloudy. You lose the edge that GMs like Beane had where they have to budget and balance the checkbook. Instead, you can think, "Well he's good, let's get him".[/quote']

 

Good observation.

[Bellhorn04]

2003-2008 B+

2009-2011 F

Overall C

 

That's a fair methodology and I would agree with the 2003-2008 grade. I think the 2009-2011 is too low, but I can see a D grade. Overall I think a B- grade is reasonable.

[a700hitter]

Well' date='in all fairness, you do criticize him rather often [/quote']Someone has to counter the mythological icon status that he has around here.

[RedSoxfanforlife305]

Grady Sizemore for RF?

[a700hitter]

So after 1967 you NEVER heard about Bambino, 1918, 1975, 1986, Bucky, Buckner or Boone? Wow. That's fk'n amazing condsiering you live in NY.

 

I went to an outdoor concert in 1999 with a Red Sox shirt on and some random tool had to bring up Buckner. Of course, I laughed and told him "how original".

 

You HAVE to be in denial living in NY. I live in VA and got constant s*** until the 2004 ALCS and WS.

 

I'm happy we had Theo and that he helped us win 2 WS. Good luck to him in Chicago and I hope he helps win them a WS. Oh, but that's right, the Red Sox should win EVERY year. My bad.

 

You are too smart to be that full of s***.

Such anger at me for critiquing the former GM. BTW, I am still hearing about Buckner and Bucky and Boone. I live in NY. 2004 didn't make it stop. Thanks Theo for adding 2011 to that mix. Now I am enjoying questions about which year was the bigger collapse 1978 or 2011. ... and the answer is...2011. Thanks again Theo for the biggest hurt put on the fans.

[RedSoxfanforlife305]

All teams get s***, even the Yankees. They just happen to have more championships then everyone so the "but but but we have 27 championships we're da best eva!" ******** argument kicks in. There's nothing to argue.

[VA Sox Fan]

Such anger at me for critiquing the former GM. BTW' date=' I am still hearing about Buckner and Bucky and Boone. I live in NY. 2004 didn't make it stop. Thanks Theo for adding 2011 to that mix. Now I am enjoying questions about which year was the bigger collapse 1978 or 2011. ... and the answer is...2011. Thanks again Theo for the biggest hurt put on the fans.[/quote']

 

Tell them to go f*** themselves and remember 2004. Nuff said. f*** them. Asses.

[a700hitter]

Tell them to go f*** themselves and remember 2004. Nuff said. f*** them. Asses.

If I had a nickel for every time I called a Yankee fan an ass or told them to shut up, I'd be retired and that would be just for the times that I said it to family members.

 

Do you really think a B minus is a terribly unfair grade for Theo?

[jacksonianmarch]

Tell them to go f*** themselves and remember 2004. Nuff said. f*** them. Asses.

 

2004 doesnt hurt as much now that we won in 2009 and now that the sox had an even bigger choke

[User Name]

2004 doesnt hurt as much now that we won in 2009 and now that the sox had an even bigger choke

 

No choke will equal the 3-0 ALCS lead, but nice try.

[jacksonianmarch]

Really? At least we lost to the eventual champs. You guys lost to the Orioles, Jays, Rays, and us down the stretch and gave up a 9 game September lead to a team that didnt even dominate September (10 losses). That is a much, much bigger choke. Tell yourself all you want, but you were the superior team in 2004 and in 2011. In 2011, you just choked hard

[ORS]

2003-2008 B+

2009-2011 F

Overall C

2003-2008 (6 years): 4 trips to the ALCS, 2 WS titles.....that's an A.

2009-2011 (3 years): 1 playoff appearance.....a D (a C in a smaller market).

Overall: with proper weighting (6 years vs 3), that's a B.

 

However, this discussion of grading made me think of a common concept used in subjective grading, which is what this is, that really applies here. Grading on a curve. Given the nature of the league, there are very good teams, good teams, mediocre teams, bad teams, and very bad teams (A, B, C, D, F) every year....or over a span of years. And, like in curved grading, I think it only fitting to be graded against your peers.....not absolute grading, which is graded against a perfect ideal, which doesn't exist in this population (MLB GM's).

 

On a curve, 10% of the "class" should get an A, 20% a B, and the remaining 70% a C or lower. B or higher means he's been one of the top 9 GM's in the league over his tenure. I can't think of 9 rock solid cases to move him into the lower 70%. Can you?

 

He's easily a B, with a strong case for an A, IMO. I think the disappointment of the last two years is eclipsing the success he had here. Only one other team has multiple titles over that timeframe (STL), but with more years missing the playoffs, and not as many trips to the LCS. Nobody has been the LCS as often. This stuff needs to stop being overlooked.

[User Name]

Rationalization: Breakfast of champions. (@ the Jacksonianmarch guy)

[VA Sox Fan]

If I had a nickel for every time I called a Yankee fan an ass or told them to shut up, I'd be retired and that would be just for the times that I said it to family members.

 

Do you really think a B minus is a terribly unfair grade for Theo?

 

No I do not. I'd give him a B+. Do not buy into the crap bro.

 

So many NYY fans are so full of s*** though. I know it's tough living up there. But, seriously. Up 3-0 and winning game 3 19-8? PLEASE. No need to throw Theo or Tito under the bus as many people are.

 

This season hurt and it hurt badly. But not as badly as a lot of previous seasons. 2003 was my biggest hurt. And seabeach has "been a fan since 2001" he "suffered" for 3 years. The rest of us had a lifetime of it.

 

Just don't forget bro.

[jacksonianmarch]

2003-2008 (6 years): 4 trips to the ALCS, 2 WS titles.....that's an A.

2009-2011 (3 years): 1 playoff appearance.....a D (a C in a smaller market).

Overall: with proper weighting (6 years vs 3), that's a B.

 

However, this discussion of grading made me think of a common concept used in subjective grading, which is what this is, that really applies here. Grading on a curve. Given the nature of the league, there are very good teams, good teams, mediocre teams, bad teams, and very bad teams (A, B, C, D, F) every year....or over a span of years. And, like in curved grading, I think it only fitting to be graded against your peers.....not absolute grading, which is graded against a perfect ideal, which doesn't exist in this population (MLB GM's).

 

On a curve, 10% of the "class" should get an A, 20% a B, and the remaining 70% a C or lower. B or higher means he's been one of the top 9 GM's in the league over his tenure. I can't think of 9 rock solid cases to move him into the lower 70%. Can you?

 

He's easily a B, with a strong case for an A, IMO. I think the disappointment of the last two years is eclipsing the success he had here. Only one other team has multiple titles over that timeframe (STL), but with more years missing the playoffs, and not as many trips to the LCS. Nobody has been the LCS as often. This stuff needs to stop being overlooked.

 

The Yankees and Sox have been to 4 ALCS's since 2003

[ORS]

The Yankees and Sox have been to 4 ALCS's since 2003

Forgot about 2010. I stand corrected.

[RedSoxfanforlife305]

Really? At least we lost to the eventual champs. You guys lost to the Orioles' date=' Jays, Rays, and us down the stretch and gave up a 9 game September lead to a team that didnt even dominate September (10 losses). That is a much, much bigger choke. Tell yourself all you want, but you were the superior team in 2004 and in 2011. In 2011, you just choked hard[/quote']

 

I think blowing a 3-0 lead in the playoffs is worse.

[jacksonianmarch]

I think blowing a 3-0 lead in the playoffs is worse.

 

Really? 4 games in a row against a better team is a bigger debachle than losing 20 of 27 down the stretch, blowing a 9 game lead and losing 5 of 7 games to the worst team in the AL East isnt a bigger choke? Really? Cmon man.

[RedSoxfanforlife305]

playoffs > regular season

 

It's only cause you're a Yankees fan. You'll do whatever it takes to not hold the title of biggest choke. I understand.

[jacksonianmarch]

It's the length and the competition that hand this off to the sox, big time. The Yankees lost to the Sox. The Sox gave away their wild card lead by losing to the Orioles. That is way more embarassing. Way more

[redsoxfan3]

playoffs > regular season

 

It's only cause you're a Yankees fan. You'll do whatever it takes to not hold the title of biggest choke. I understand.

 

The same can be said about us being Red Sox fans. There is bias going both ways. We probably have had the biggest regular season choke and the Yankees have had the biggest post season choke, being realistic. It is kind of hard to compare the two, but you are probably right, especially since the post season means more than the regular season. So, being a biased Red Sox fan, I am willing to agree with you in saying the Yankees have the biggest choke.

[RedSoxfanforlife305]

So is getting f***ing raped by the Guardians in your own brand new toilet they call Yankee Stadium. That's embarrassomg too. See the thing with all that is it's irrelevant because we're talking about who choked more. Losing a 3-0 lead is pretty damn embarassing too. Last time I check you ****s were the only ones who did it.

[RedSoxfanforlife305]

The same can be said about us being Red Sox fans. There is bias going both ways. We probably have had the biggest regular season choke and the Yankees have had the biggest post season choke' date=' being realistic. It is kind of hard to compare the two, but you are probably right, especially since the post season means more than the regular season. So, being a biased Red Sox fan, I am willing aree with you in saying the Yankees have the biggest choke. [/quote']

 

I'm not arguing the fact we hold the biggest choke in regular season history. I'm arguing losing in the playoffs especially with a 3-0 lead is more of a choke than losing in the regular season. He's trying to spin his way around it.

[jacksonianmarch]

Last I checked you guys were the only ones to lose a 9 game lead in September. The Yankees choked, there is no doubt. The sox gagged on a gaggle of dicks, and imploded, there is no doubt about that either.

[RedSoxfanforlife305]

I'm done.

[redsoxfan3]

I'm not arguing the fact we hold the biggest choke in regular season history. I'm arguing losing in the playoffs especially with a 3-0 lead is more of a choke than losing in the regular season. He's trying to spin his way around it.

 

I see your point, and I also do agree with it. It comes down to this, what means more? Going to the World Series or going to the playoffs? Obviously you can't go to the World Series without making the playoffs, but the Yankees choked on the bigger stage.

[example1]

You buy into E1's hype that anyone who criticizes Theo must hate him or that any criticism means that the guy is a zero.

 

I don't think anyone who criticizes him hates him. I've just read you in particular being critical for the past 7 years, and I think that you're consistently over the top. You and I know that if you had your way most of the Sox best homegrown players would have been dealt for players who are either not in the league anymore, or who would have no place on the current team.

[example1]

2003-2008 (6 years): 4 trips to the ALCS, 2 WS titles.....that's an A.

2009-2011 (3 years): 1 playoff appearance.....a D (a C in a smaller market).

Overall: with proper weighting (6 years vs 3), that's a B.

 

However, this discussion of grading made me think of a common concept used in subjective grading, which is what this is, that really applies here. Grading on a curve. Given the nature of the league, there are very good teams, good teams, mediocre teams, bad teams, and very bad teams (A, B, C, D, F) every year....or over a span of years. And, like in curved grading, I think it only fitting to be graded against your peers.....not absolute grading, which is graded against a perfect ideal, which doesn't exist in this population (MLB GM's).

 

I think this captures it perfectly. I come off sometimes like a Theo-obsessed douchebag, but that's not my feeling at all. I just think that it is only fair to evaluate players, managers, parents, etc., based on what happens in reality, not in some Platonic ideal world, which never has and never will exist. Thanks for putting it so clearly ORS.

[a700hitter]

I don't think anyone who criticizes him hates him. I've just read you in particular being critical for the past 7 years' date=' and I think that you're consistently over the top. You and I know that if you had your way most of the Sox best homegrown players would have been dealt for players who are either not in the league anymore, or who would have no place on the current team.[/quote']Theo's record is certainly not without blemish. The grade that I gave him of B minus is higher than what others have given him. I don't see how that is over the top. What's over the top is how you take any criticism of Theo so personally.