2011-2012 Offseason Thread

[BSN07]

• Where would Soriano play? He's a horrendous fielder.
  
• Why trade Ellsbury who is one of only three young stars on the team and he just had a breakout season. This team should be built around him and Pedroia.
  
• I wouldn't be so quick to let Ortiz walk unless you are going to bring in an elite bat. When Ortiz was out of the lineup, the team went into an offensive tailspin.
  
• Broxton? He has been horribly inconsistent and injured the last couple of seasons. That wouldn't be interesting. It would be frightening.
  
• The core of the team is not solid. Other than AGon and Pedroia, they have nothing to build around if you trade Ellsbury. The pitching is woefully thin at starter and in the pen. If the pitching is not addressed, the same thing will happen next season. Buchholz returning to the rotation will not be enough.
  

• Iggy will never be ready until he proves that he can hit.
  

 

BTW: Looking at your sig, tell me who you think will be coming out of the minors to make an impact in 2012? I'm not talking about a backup infielder or a middle bullpen piece, or a backup catcher. Who is the next Pedroia, Ellsbury, Youkilis, Lester, Buchholz or Papelbon?

 

Now you think Ellsbury is a star? This time last year you were one of many trying to run him out of town.

 

Anyways, ya they can build around him for the next two years, but that's it IMO. If he puts up comparable numbers for those two years he will be gone. Sox won't be giving him 140M+ contract to keep him around. And that is exactly where Boras is going to start the bidding war. Boras has had a boner since the ink went dry on Crawfords deal. He was the perfect comparison for Ellsbury. Now tack on a 25-30HR threat and Ellsbury's price just went through the roof.

 

I still maintain my line of Crawford's contract is the absolute worst on the team. From a production and a ripple effect point of view. Lackey is a close #2, the other deal that I was completely against from the start.

 

But as I am not in charge I will only gripe so much. I am looking forward to what shake ups the roster goes through this winter.

[a700hitter]

Now you think Ellsbury is a star? This time last year you were one of many trying to run him out of town.

I did question his toughness, but I never questioned his talent... ever. And he has surpassed even my high opinion of his talent.

 

Edit: i didn't want him run out of town, if for no other reason than his value was at a low after 2010.

 

Anyways' date=' ya they can build around him for the next two years, but that's it IMO. If he puts up comparable numbers for those two years he will be gone. Sox won't be giving him 140M+ contract to keep him around. And that is exactly where Boras is going to start the bidding war. Boras has had a boner since the ink went dry on Crawfords deal. He was the perfect comparison for Ellsbury. Now tack on a 25-30HR threat and Ellsbury's price just went through the roof.[/quote']If the Sox can't afford him, who can. The yankees already have Granderson.

 

I still maintain my line of Crawford's contract is the absolute worst on the team. From a production and a ripple effect point of view. Lackey is a close #2' date=' the other deal that I was completely against from the start.[/quote']What does this have to do with Ellsbury?

[BSN07]

I did question his toughness, but I never questioned his talent... ever. And he has surpassed even my high opinion of his talent.

 

Edit: i didn't want him run out of town, if for no other reason than his value was at a low after 2010.

 

If the Sox can't afford him, who can. The yankees already have Granderson.

 

What does this have to do with Ellsbury?

 

This is Boras we are talking about here. He will squeeze it from someone. Even if they can't really afford it.

 

It has to do with Ellsbury because Crawford's deal is going to be the most popular comparable when it comes negotiation on a new deal for him. As soon as Crawford signed he set the bench mark for the players of his skill set. Ellsbury skill set is almost an exact clone of Crawford's. Now add in power and it will be Crawford's deal +. Which pretty much sucks because I'm not sure the Sox will be so quick to hand out such a big deal. But anything is possible. This is just how I am feeling at the moment. Subject to change

[example1]

http://www.boston.com/sports/columnists/wilbur/2011/09/splat.html

 

My sentiments exactly.

 

Really?

 

"Call it a cliche of heart or character, whatever, but this team didn't have it. I'm not talking about the need for a constant rah-rah guy, but the absence of someone aside from Dustin Pedroia with an edge was staggering. Adrian Gonzalez had an MVP-type year, but after last night's disaster in Baltimore, he clearly proved that he doesn't get it."

 

You were saying "they just weren't good enough" in the other thread. Which is it?

[example1]

BTW: Looking at your sig, tell me who you think will be coming out of the minors to make an impact in 2012? I'm not talking about a backup infielder or a middle bullpen piece, or a backup catcher. Who is the next Pedroia, Ellsbury, Youkilis, Lester, Buchholz or Papelbon?

 

I'll bite. Lavarnway. Kalish. Doubront. Maybe Iglesias. Maybe Weiland. Maybe Alex Wilson. Maybe Will Middlebrooks. This team isn't without prospects.

 

My bet is that Lavarnway and Kalish both turn into MLB regulars and that a few years from now Kalish will be a fan (and a700) favorite.

[jacksonianmarch]

Your team is without a lot of contingency in the upper minors. That's the problem

[example1]

Your team is without a lot of contingency in the upper minors. That's the problem

 

The minors are certainly not without fault, especially with regards to pitching. I completely agree.

 

However, I think that there are some players who could have significant impact at the major league level, which is what a700 was talking about.

 

The player development system will produce some very good players again (another 'core' for the team) but it will be a few years before that happens.

[jacksonianmarch]

Well, take a look at your drafting since 2008. Theo has drafted a ton of HS kids. They take longer

[example1]

Well' date=' take a look at your drafting since 2008. Theo has drafted a ton of HS kids. They take longer[/quote']

 

What are you trying to convince me of? I think I just alluded to this exact point, no?

[example1]

In the mean time, Joel Sherman tweeted that most MLB execs believe the Sox will give the Cubs permission to talk to Theo.

 

Perhaps iortiz and a700 will have their wishes answered and Theo will go to a different club and the Sox will find a better GM and manager than they have had.

[example1]

Perhaps the best thing this team can do is let all the expensive payroll players go and reinvest that money in the guys they want to keep around for a few years.

 

Would anyone be too upset if they signed Ellsbury to another 6 years right now? Seems like the kind of guy worth building around.

[redsoxbeatz]

Who is going to be the Red Sox manager? There must be some eager potentials out there.

[soxfan74]

Perhaps the best thing this team can do is let all the expensive payroll players go and reinvest that money in the guys they want to keep around for a few years.

 

Would anyone be too upset if they signed Ellsbury to another 6 years right now? Seems like the kind of guy worth building around.

 

 

 

 

Exactly! Let them all walk. Like the idea about reinvesting in Ellsbury. I just don't think Boras will do the deal until he hits the open market. Let Lavarnway play DH. We could use the right handed bat in the line-up.

[example1]

The 2013 FA class (after next year) has some interesting names in it, especially for starting pitchers:

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2011/04/2013-mlb-free-agents.html

 

Matt Cain

Zack Greinke

Cole Hamels

John Danks

Francisco Liriano

Shaun Marcum

Brandon McCarthy

Anibel Sanchez

Jonathan Sanchez

 

Other good players:

 

Matt Kemp

Andre Ethier

Miguel Montero

BJ Upton (no thanks, but...)

Carlos Quentin

 

 

Anyone there good enough to start targeting this year (i.e., not make moves that would block their acquisition?)

 

All in all, this team needs to get as many internally-developed players as possible. They have so much money tied into just a few players moving forward, with little end in sight, they would benefit from as many MLB minimum players filling roles as possible.

 

That means (to me at least) filling spots with guys like Iglesias, Kalish, Lavarnway, Doubront, Wilson and a number of other internal options to save money in positions that might be questionable on the free-agent market anyway.

[example1]

I hope the Red Sox players are sitting at home forcing themselves to watch these playoffs. Watching the passion that these players and fans have (I'm watching Ryan Howard blast a 3 run, go-ahead bomb) and recognizing that they are missing out on something special.

 

The 2010 team had the ability to compete with these teams. I have no doubt about that at all. They just squandered it. f*** that. We should be rooting for our team today, instead other teams are playing late-September baseball.

 

These guys couldn't be a f***ing TEAM? That's supposed to be the easy part. Common goal. Keeping the end in sight. Yada yada. Jesus.

 

GET YOUR ASSES IN SHAPE. COMPETE AND GET PISSED OFF. f***!

[soxfan74]

I hope the Red Sox players are sitting at home forcing themselves to watch these playoffs. Watching the passion that these players and fans have (I'm watching Ryan Howard blast a 3 run, go-ahead bomb) and recognizing that they are missing out on something special.

 

The 2010 team had the ability to compete with these teams. I have no doubt about that at all. They just squandered it. f*** that. We should be rooting for our team today, instead other teams are playing late-September baseball.

 

These guys couldn't be a f***ing TEAM? That's supposed to be the easy part. Common goal. Keeping the end in sight. Yada yada. Jesus.

 

GET YOUR ASSES IN SHAPE. COMPETE AND GET PISSED OFF. f***!

 

 

 

 

You're a better man than me. No way in hell I could watch Baseball. right now.

[FredLynn]

In the mean time, Joel Sherman tweeted that most MLB execs believe the Sox will give the Cubs permission to talk to Theo.

 

Perhaps iortiz and a700 will have their wishes answered and Theo will go to a different club and the Sox will find a better GM and manager than they have had.

 

You can add me to that list. Epstein MUST go for this team to become relevant again. The list of FA signings that he has saddled us with reads like a grade B horror movie. Its time to clean house. No more Boston Red Sox Country Club Spa; no more whining by the players; no more beer in the dugout; no more staring down the manager when he comes out to remove a pitcher from the game; no more inattentiveness to fundamental baseball skills. We are going nowhere with Epstein as GM and every year he remains is another year in third place.

[a700hitter]

In the mean time, Joel Sherman tweeted that most MLB execs believe the Sox will give the Cubs permission to talk to Theo.

 

Perhaps iortiz and a700 will have their wishes answered and Theo will go to a different club and the Sox will find a better GM and manager than they have had.

If the owners are giving him permission to talk to the Cubs, they must be willing to let him walk. I was suspicious about the leaking of the Cubs rumor during the season. The ice may have been thin before the collapse. You can't blame the owners. Theo wasted a truckload of their money.

[jung]

You must mean "If" they give the cubs permission to talk to Theo. They have apparently not given the cubs permission as yet.

[Cairns_Sox]

You must mean "If" they give the cubs permission to talk to Theo. They have apparently not given the cubs permission as yet.

 

There are reports of it already. Although nothing official. But honestly would it suprise you?

[iortiz]

If the owners are giving him permission to talk to the Cubs' date=' they must be willing to let him walk. I was suspicious about the leaking of the Cubs rumor during the season. The ice may have been thin before the collapse. You can't blame the owners. Theo wasted a truckload of their money.[/quote']

 

Yup.

 

As I said, I'd be surprised if he continues after 3 years of failures. I wouldn't give him other 100 MUSD to blow it up again, no way.

 

JH and co. should take some days off and go to Miami and btw go to TB and bring the new money ball guy A.F.

 

I almost forget that TB is in the POs. again, so... wait a couple of weeks guys.

[example1]

I hope to hell that you guys are right and that I am wrong. If Theo goes I would expect that this team is turned around quickly because it seems that just about anyone could do a better job. Obviously, I would rather this be a winning team than them having a particular GM. I've just been impressed with the approach this GM has and don't expect that they will necessarily find a better option easily.

[jung]

No it would not surprise me save one indisputable fact.....JH fell in love with Theo as much as Theo fell in love with his player evaluation matrix. Larry is a much more pragmatic fellow and i am guessing if they do let Theo talk to the cubs it will be because Larry comes down on that side of things and convinces JH that it makes sense to move on.

 

In fact if I were Larry I would be building a list of candidates with relevant supporting information in each case in preparation to present to JH. This town has a fair share of Larry haters but he is much more pragmatic than John Henry. In fact if it were left to Henry I would be willing to bet that he could convince himself that this was all a learning experience for Theo and if he had his way he would put new parameters around what Theo did and how he did it allowing him to keep his golden boy, his star, his genius on the payroll. We may ultimately be thanking God for Larry at some point here.

[Cairns_Sox]

No it would not surprise me save one indisputable fact.....JH fell in love with Theo as much as Theo fell in love with his player evaluation matrix. Larry is a much more pragmatic fellow and i am guessing if they do let Theo talk to the cubs it will be because Larry comes down on that side of things and convinces JH that it makes sense to move on.

 

In fact if I were Larry I would be building a list of candidates with relevant supporting information in each case in preparation to present to JH. This town has a fair share of Larry haters but he is much more pragmatic than John Henry. In fact if it were left to Henry I would be willing to bet that he could convince himself that this was all a learning experience for Theo and if he had his way he would put new parameters around what Theo did and how he did it allowing him to keep his golden boy, his star, his genius on the payroll. We may ultimately be thanking God for Larry at some point here.

 

Not me. Not after that press conference.

[jacksonianmarch]

Theo saw a major window in the farm and tried to close that window with a flashy trade and flashy signings. It blew up in his face, cause the team effectively hated each other and wilted late in the yr. I'll tell you, the 2011 sox reminded me of the mid 00s Yanks. Big money FA's with no guts who made the postseason then laid down when it counted. The sox obviously didnt get that far before lacking testicular fortitude to close the deal. The injection of kids and the acquisition of top flight talent who doubled as good teammates brought us a title in 2009. The sox got a bunch of either shy (Crawford), stupid (AdGon), or selfish (Lackey) players to go with a volatile mix of douchebags in the clubhouse. The chemistry blows and they showed it late.

 

I think the sox may be sealing their fate for the next 2-3 yrs. You fix these problems by bringing in good signings and hungry kids. The second part wont be coming up for another couple yrs

[Palodios]

Theo saw a major window in the farm and tried to close that window with a flashy trade and flashy signings. It blew up in his face, cause the team effectively hated each other and wilted late in the yr. I'll tell you, the 2011 sox reminded me of the mid 00s Yanks. Big money FA's with no guts who made the postseason then laid down when it counted. The sox obviously didnt get that far before lacking testicular fortitude to close the deal. The injection of kids and the acquisition of top flight talent who doubled as good teammates brought us a title in 2009. The sox got a bunch of either shy (Crawford), stupid (AdGon), or selfish (Lackey) players to go with a volatile mix of douchebags in the clubhouse. The chemistry blows and they showed it late.

 

I think the sox may be sealing their fate for the next 2-3 yrs. You fix these problems by bringing in good signings and hungry kids. The second part wont be coming up for another couple yrs

 

Of the Red Sox's top 15 prospects, 7 will start 2012 in AAA or the majors. And considering the sheer number of 1st round picks they had in 2009, 2010, and likely 2011, I would bet the Red Sox get a steady stream of major league players from their farm moving moving forward.

[jacksonianmarch]

Those 7 are....

 

Will Middlebrooks- struggled at AAA and blocked by Youkilis

Ryan Kalish- coming off neck and labrum surgeries

Jose Iglesias- cannot hit

Ryan Lavarnway- premium bat, poor defense. If Papi returns, no role in the bigs

Kyle Weiland- looks like he could be a great pitcher....in the NL Central. Kid throws a lot better out of the pen, though

Felix Doubront- came to camp out of shape, injured and finished the yr a reliever. He cannot be counted on as a rotation option

Alex Wilson- may be the dark horse #5 starter for the sox. He looks like he could be very good

 

I am sorry, but I am not impressed and I doubt Theo was. There are no Ellsbury's, Pedroia's, Buchholz's, Lester's, Papelbon's, etc. There are a bunch of guys who either arent ready or have critical flaws

[Palodios]

Those 7 are....

 

Will Middlebrooks- struggled at AAA and blocked by Youkilis

Ryan Kalish- coming off neck and labrum surgeries

Jose Iglesias- cannot hit

Ryan Lavarnway- premium bat, poor defense. If Papi returns, no role in the bigs

Kyle Weiland- looks like he could be a great pitcher....in the NL Central. Kid throws a lot better out of the pen, though

Felix Doubront- came to camp out of shape, injured and finished the yr a reliever. He cannot be counted on as a rotation option

Alex Wilson- may be the dark horse #5 starter for the sox. He looks like he could be very good

 

I am sorry, but I am not impressed and I doubt Theo was. There are no Ellsbury's, Pedroia's, Buchholz's, Lester's, Papelbon's, etc. There are a bunch of guys who either arent ready or have critical flaws

 

Nowhere did I say that any of these guys will turn into all-stars or hall of fame candidates. Middlebrooks played, what, ten games in AAA? And injuries happen. The Sox have such a strong front-end that all they really need is depth, and they will have options at multiple positions.

[iortiz]

Those 7 are....

 

Will Middlebrooks- struggled at AAA and blocked by Youkilis

Ryan Kalish- coming off neck and labrum surgeries

Jose Iglesias- cannot hit

Ryan Lavarnway- premium bat, poor defense. If Papi returns, no role in the bigs

Kyle Weiland- looks like he could be a great pitcher....in the NL Central. Kid throws a lot better out of the pen, though

Felix Doubront- came to camp out of shape, injured and finished the yr a reliever. He cannot be counted on as a rotation option

Alex Wilson- may be the dark horse #5 starter for the sox. He looks like he could be very good

 

I am sorry, but I am not impressed and I doubt Theo was. There are no Ellsbury's, Pedroia's, Buchholz's, Lester's, Papelbon's, etc. There are a bunch of guys who either arent ready or have critical flaws

 

So... We are screwed in the farm as well, great legacy Theo.... dammit! .

[jacksonianmarch]

The only depth that matters is good depth, as the sox learned this yr. Their ranks are thin at the upper levels. Your actual best prospects (Ranaudo, Jacobs, Bogaerts, Swihart) are far away