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Posted
Would you be happier with a mediocre non-playoff team for half the ticket prices?

 

How about switching teams--TB and the Red Sox? Including the managements?

And then halving the ticket prices.:thumbsup:

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Posted
Who's gonna can these guys?

 

Theo's gatekeeper is Lucchino.

 

Henry and Werner have probably never fired anybody in their lives.

Oh yeah, Grady Little--after all the fan/media outrage.

 

The one guy who could get it is Tito.

The media's heating up right now, and if they don't make the playoffs, he'll be the scapegoat.

 

Who cares if the media gets fired up? Thats what they are paid to do. It has no barring on reality necessarily.

Posted
How about switching teams--TB and the Red Sox? Including the managements?

And then halving the ticket prices.:thumbsup:

 

I don't care about the ticket prices, actually. I have the opportunity to see them maybe once a year, often zero times. I don't lose sleep over it.

Posted
Who cares if the media gets fired up? Thats what they are paid to do. It has no barring on reality necessarily.

 

Who cares? The management cares. They are scared to death negative media will affect ticket sales. They equate the media to the fans--which isn't always the case.

Posted
How about switching teams--TB and the Red Sox? Including the managements?

And then halving the ticket prices.:thumbsup:

 

Sounds adequate. :lol:

Posted
Who cares? The management cares. They are scared to death negative media will affect ticket sales. They equate the media to the fans--which isn't always the case.

 

Not as much as you might think. John Henry isn't going to tell his friends that he spent his money on a s***** team this year. He's going to tell them (rightly) that the Sox had a really good team this year, their pitching got battered and wasn't deep enough to sustain a high level of play, and they had a historically bad September. The media may paint different picture, but what else is new? Dan Shaugnassey (sp?) is always the most reactionary. They get paid to blow things out of proportion.

 

This team was in FIRST PLACE at the beginning of September. It isn't like they were eliminated in July.

Posted
Well' date=' What about prepare him in the offseason to give him for once and for all the 5th spot. I mean, he has the conditions to make the transition; he still young, has control and command and seems like his arm is healthy.[/quote']

 

You say he is still young, he will be 30 before next season starts and he has a long history of injuries. Is that what you want for a starter. Have you ever wondered why he has NEVER been a full time starter in the majors?

Posted
Not as much as you might think. John Henry isn't going to tell his friends that he spent his money on a s***** team this year. He's going to tell them (rightly) that the Sox had a really good team this year, their pitching got battered and wasn't deep enough to sustain a high level of play, and they had a historically bad September. The media may paint different picture, but what else is new? Dan Shaugnassey (sp?) is always the most reactionary. They get paid to blow things out of proportion.

 

This team was in FIRST PLACE at the beginning of September. It isn't like they were eliminated in July.

You are wrong about this. The FO does care about the press. That is why they so carefully cultivate a symbiotic relationship with them. The press almost never goes off on a player even if the guy is a total jerk, because they don't want their access and sources to dry up. Once the guy leaves or they know the FO is done with the guy, the press has a feeding frenzy. Years like this that are magnified by the press can damage the franchise. It might take a couple more of these years to affect ticket sales, but the Sox TV ratings were slipping badly last year. That translates into lost revenue sooner than later. It also explains why the Sox opted to go for a flashy exciting player like Carl Crawford, whose failure on the field pales in comparison to his failure as a catalyst for renewed fan interest.

 

You are looking at this in a very biased way colored by your dedication to Theo. If they complete this flop, he'll be on thin ice and if they miss the playoffs next year or make an early exit, he'll be gone. He's not going to get 3-4 years to break in a new manager. If the Yankees win 2 World Series, Theo's immediate end iwould be a certainty IMO.

Posted
You say he is still young' date=' he will be 30 before next season starts and he has a long history of injuries. Is that what you want for a starter. Have you ever wondered why he has NEVER been a full time starter in the majors?[/quote']

 

What would you do about the 4 and 5 spot then?

Posted

The Globe sports editor said in a video tonite the Sox are 2-58 when they are losing after 7 innings.

 

I'm not surprised. Every time I see a close game going into the later innings, the leadoff batter is not looking to get on base. They often are swinging at the first pitch. Where the hell is the manager here?

These guys should be sweating pitches to get on base. But you don't see that on this version of the Red Sox. Johnny Damon, where are you.

Posted
Not as much as you might think. John Henry isn't going to tell his friends that he spent his money on a s***** team this year. He's going to tell them (rightly) that the Sox had a really good team this year, their pitching got battered and wasn't deep enough to sustain a high level of play, and they had a historically bad September. The media may paint different picture, but what else is new? Dan Shaugnassey (sp?) is always the most reactionary. They get paid to blow things out of proportion.

 

This team was in FIRST PLACE at the beginning of September. It isn't like they were eliminated in July.

 

No. Henry cares. He cares about ticket sales. They are scared to death about anything that affects ticket sales. They equate the media to the fans. Wrong. But that's what they do. And right now, the local media is turning against the team, including the management.

If they don't make the playoffs, they will have to make a manager change.

Posted
You are wrong about this. The FO does care about the press. That is why they so carefully cultivate a symbiotic relationship with them. The press almost never goes off on a player even if the guy is a total jerk, because they don't want their access and sources to dry up. Once the guy leaves or they know the FO is done with the guy, the press has a feeding frenzy. Years like this that are magnified by the press can damage the franchise. It might take a couple more of these years to affect ticket sales, but the Sox TV ratings were slipping badly last year. That translates into lost revenue sooner than later. It also explains why the Sox opted to go for a flashy exciting player like Carl Crawford, whose failure on the field pales in comparison to his failure as a catalyst for renewed fan interest.

 

You are looking at this in a very biased way colored by your dedication to Theo. If they complete this flop, he'll be on thin ice and if they miss the playoffs next year or make an early exit, he'll be gone. He's not going to get 3-4 years to break in a new manager. If the Yankees win 2 World Series, Theo's immediate end iwould be a certainty IMO.

 

Their ratings were terrible last year because the team they were putting on the field was terrible. The team they were putting on the field lacked a number of regulars due to injury, your boy Ortiz was inconsistent despite being the offensive face of the franchise, etc.,

 

I agree that there is a threshold at which the ownership cares about what the media says, but they don't lose sleep over it when they are fielding a team like the one they had this year. In September, yes, because it has been a nightmare, but going into mid-late August I doubt they were terrified of what the media might say. Red Sox nation was happy. They dominated the Yankees and had the best record in the AL.

 

You are also assuming too much in my bias toward this FO. I'm not blindly loyal. I just don't know what I can do other than show you that they have won more games over the past 4 years than all but two teams in baseball. That's pretty damn good.

Posted
Their ratings were terrible last year because the team they were putting on the field was terrible. The team they were putting on the field lacked a number of regulars due to injury, your boy Ortiz was inconsistent despite being the offensive face of the franchise, etc.,

 

I agree that there is a threshold at which the ownership cares about what the media says, but they don't lose sleep over it when they are fielding a team like the one they had this year. In September, yes, because it has been a nightmare, but going into mid-late August I doubt they were terrified of what the media might say. Red Sox nation was happy. They dominated the Yankees and had the best record in the AL.

 

You are also assuming too much in my bias toward this FO. I'm not blindly loyal. I just don't know what I can do other than show you that they have won more games over the past 4 years than all but two teams in baseball. That's pretty damn good.

The ratings were down throughout the season last year even when they were playing well before the injuries and they were very concerned. I don't know what Ortiz or any player had yo do

with it. Ortiz and Beltre were probably the two most compelling offensive players last season.

 

Edit: The thing with blind loyalty is that you can't see it in yourself. The popular opinion is that The is the second biggest reason for this team's predicament. Are they all stupid and wrong?

Posted
Edit: The thing with blind loyalty is that you can't see it in yourself. The popular opinion is that The is the second biggest reason for this team's predicament. Are they all stupid and wrong?

 

No. But this team's "predicament" looks more and more like a playoff appearance, and included a really long period of being the best team in the AL. People around here are acting like the team continued its 2-10 start throughout the season, didn't do anything about it, and finished behind the Rays and Jays for 4th place in the division.

 

I totally hold Theo resopnsible--and primarily responsible, at that--for the defeciencies of this club. However, I still think the club is closer to a Porsche than a Yugo.

Posted
However' date=' I still think the club is closer to a Porsche than a Yugo.[/quote']I don't disagree with this, but when you are paying for a Ferrari and you get a Porsche Boxster, it is not a good job.
Posted
I don't disagree with this' date=' but when you are paying for a Ferrari and you get a Porsche Boxster, it is not a good job.[/quote']

 

I knew you would up the supercar ante. :lol:

 

Fine, they are a lot more like a Buggatti than a Yugo.

 

Honestly, for most of this season I thought this might be the most complete team the Sox have had in Theo's era. Until the pitching fell apart they were really rolling along. I think it doesn't take much to get all pistons firing.

 

yes, they will need to make some moves to bolster the club but I think they will be fewer big moves than most are anticipating.

 

Just imagine if Carl Crawford played like Carl Crawford should play this year. Seriously, that would likely have them right there with the Yankees DESPITE all the injuries to Buchholz, Youkilis, Kalish, Lowrie, etc.,

Posted
I knew you would up the supercar ante. :lol:

 

Fine, they are a lot more like a Buggatti than a Yugo.

 

Honestly, for most of this season I thought this might be the most complete team the Sox have had in Theo's era. Until the pitching fell apart they were really rolling along. I think it doesn't take much to get all pistons firing.

 

yes, they will need to make some moves to bolster the club but I think they will be fewer big moves than most are anticipating.

 

Just imagine if Carl Crawford played like Carl Crawford should play this year. Seriously, that would likely have them right there with the Yankees DESPITE all the injuries to Buchholz, Youkilis, Kalish, Lowrie, etc.,

Tito will be the first to be sacrificed because of the under performance of certain players. He will be held responsible if he can't get the pistons firing. I've said it before, that I don't think Theo will get fired after this season regardless of the outcome. If they lose and Tito gets fired, Theo will have a short leash. No playoffs in 2012 and Theo is gone.
Posted
I don't disagree with this' date=' but when you are paying for a Ferrari and you get a Porsche Boxster, it is not a good job.[/quote']

 

Hey, the Boxster is a helluva car. :thumbsup:

Posted
For the last 2 years, every time I have been critical of ANY player on the RedSox I am/was attacked. Well you know something? For the last 2 years, this team has been absolutely miserable to watch. Even worse? Going to a game and seeing a guy catch a game winning home run in the monster seats of the opposing team and cheering. Who the f*** sings Sweet Caroline at a RedSox game after Bard/Papelbon just had a potentially catastrophic meltdown?

 

Everyone on this board wants to get into pissing contests about how some obscure Saber statistic is the be all end all of stats, so therefore.....player X does not suck. You know what I call that? Excuses. God knows there is nothing better that the RedSox are at than excuses. This is the same club that blamed inter-league play and the official league DH rules as to why they lost to the Pittsburgh f***ing Pirates. f*** the stats, this team started 2-10 and are now 5-15 in September.

 

In the old days, when real Sox fans cared about this team and was not considered Red Sox "nation" we would be tearing into this team. Not anymore. Too many stat geeks who jumped on the bandwagon in 2004 when Bellhorn was having a sabermetric's wet dream of a season, told everyone that the old school Sox fans were wrong. The f***ing media doesnt even tear in to this team anymore, they dont want to ruin their relationship/partnership. I am so sick of seeing some dude in the press box promoting his company or talking about how generous John Henry, Larry Luchino and Tom Werner are while the Redsox are getting their asses kicked

 

This team sucks. They have no heart. Tito was a great manager when he had all those gritty players around him, but that was only because those guys cared about the game and they were damn good at the game. They didnt give a s*** what Tito said or the fact he was a "players manager" (aka a soft manager who gets walked on by his players)..they cared about the tradition of the franchise and what winning meant to this city. You want to know what Tito was before he had all those "dirt dogs"? He was a soft manager who got walked on in Philadelphia. Those players owned him in PHI which is why he was on the street looking for a job before he came to Boston.

 

This team, this organization....they arent the Boston Red Sox. Its just a bunch of guys wearing the uniform who are filling in and making Werner/Henry/Lucchino money. The Redsox are only a cash cow to those guys. Minus Youk and Pedroia, if any of them were true members of this proud organization, they would never allow this s*** to happen for 2 straight years. They should be ashamed, but they arent...they dont give a f***, and its pretty clear.

 

Instead of being angry with the fellow members of this board for having opinions like mine, how about you get angry at the organization that has played this way for the last 2 years?

 

BLOW THIS ORGANIZATION THE f*** UP!!!!!TOP TO BOTTOM, EVERYONE IS HELD ACCOUNTABLE!!!! WE WANT ANSWERS!!!! WE WANT RESULTS!!!!

 

Everything that I have said for the last 2 years is true about this team. No f***ing heart.

 

Cya later Tito, Lackey, Crawford, Varitek, Salty, Drew, Wakefield, Wheeler, Albers, Jenks, Morales.

 

Cya later Sweet Caroline.

 

Cya later pink hats, maybe this will finally get them the f*** off the bandwagon.

 

We need the die hard, pissed off, REAL Sox fans to hold them accountable. Stop buying jerseys. Stop watching romance at fenway. Stop buying "bricks". f*** this team.

 

This is just what we need. Now maybe us fans can get our team back. Maybe now they will clean house and we can get some of that chip on the shoulder gutsy BALLPLAYERS back on this team and get these overpaid, under performing, heartless, crybaby, pussies off the team.

Posted

I've never been of the opinion that the Sox have a divine right to win anything & certainly don't take for granted the successes of the past decade in general. That said, I guess one of the biggest questions has to be asked of John Henry et al, is, considering how much money they have invested, first in taking over the ownership of Liverpool FC in England, followed by a net spend on player transfers alone of over US$200m - that's before wages etc come into the equation.

 

Whilst Liverpool fans no doubt will be delighted to see this type of investment the question has to be asked, despite the high profile captures of Crawford etc during the last off-season, should not more work have been done on strengthening the Sox in what has clearly been the major weakpoint all season; the pitching. Everyone knows going into every season that there are 160-odd games to get through, before you can start talking about October. That is alot of baseball & a hell of alot of pitches that need to be thrown. So why was the planning not done to ensure that there were the arms available to throw them?

Posted
But I'd be stupid to pay Ferrari money for it.

 

It was more like a Ferrari that exposed itself as a lemon late in the season.

Posted
BLOW THIS ORGANIZATION THE f*** UP!!!!!TOP TO BOTTOM, EVERYONE IS HELD ACCOUNTABLE!!!! WE WANT ANSWERS!!!! WE WANT RESULTS!!!!

 

Everything that I have said for the last 2 years is true about this team. No f***ing heart.

 

Cya later Tito, Lackey, Crawford, Varitek, Salty, Drew, Wakefield, Wheeler, Albers, Jenks, Morales.

 

Cya later Sweet Caroline.

 

Cya later pink hats, maybe this will finally get them the f*** off the bandwagon.

 

We need the die hard, pissed off, REAL Sox fans to hold them accountable. Stop buying jerseys. Stop watching romance at fenway. Stop buying "bricks". f*** this team.

 

This is just what we need. Now maybe us fans can get our team back. Maybe now they will clean house and we can get some of that chip on the shoulder gutsy BALLPLAYERS back on this team and get these overpaid, under performing, heartless, crybaby, pussies off the team.

 

Rotation needs a huge boost. Buch will be back next year, but that gives us 3 solid options. Lackey can't be counted on for anything after this year, though, I do think he's got it in him to return to form, maybe not with us.

 

Any aces on the free agent market this offseason?

 

Catcher needs to be addressed too, I don't want to be saddled with Tek and Salty again, because Salty can't be counted on to hit for .900 OPS for 3 months out of every season.

Posted
For the last 2 years, every time I have been critical of ANY player on the RedSox I am/was attacked. Well you know something? For the last 2 years, this team has been absolutely miserable to watch. Even worse? Going to a game and seeing a guy catch a game winning home run in the monster seats of the opposing team and cheering. Who the f*** sings Sweet Caroline at a RedSox game after Bard/Papelbon just had a potentially catastrophic meltdown?

 

Everyone on this board wants to get into pissing contests about how some obscure Saber statistic is the be all end all of stats, so therefore.....player X does not suck. You know what I call that? Excuses. God knows there is nothing better that the RedSox are at than excuses. This is the same club that blamed inter-league play and the official league DH rules as to why they lost to the Pittsburgh f***ing Pirates. f*** the stats, this team started 2-10 and are now 5-15 in September.

 

In the old days, when real Sox fans cared about this team and was not considered Red Sox "nation" we would be tearing into this team. Not anymore. Too many stat geeks who jumped on the bandwagon in 2004 when Bellhorn was having a sabermetric's wet dream of a season, told everyone that the old school Sox fans were wrong. The f***ing media doesnt even tear in to this team anymore, they dont want to ruin their relationship/partnership. I am so sick of seeing some dude in the press box promoting his company or talking about how generous John Henry, Larry Luchino and Tom Werner are while the Redsox are getting their asses kicked

 

This team sucks. They have no heart. Tito was a great manager when he had all those gritty players around him, but that was only because those guys cared about the game and they were damn good at the game. They didnt give a s*** what Tito said or the fact he was a "players manager" (aka a soft manager who gets walked on by his players)..they cared about the tradition of the franchise and what winning meant to this city. You want to know what Tito was before he had all those "dirt dogs"? He was a soft manager who got walked on in Philadelphia. Those players owned him in PHI which is why he was on the street looking for a job before he came to Boston.

 

This team, this organization....they arent the Boston Red Sox. Its just a bunch of guys wearing the uniform who are filling in and making Werner/Henry/Lucchino money. The Redsox are only a cash cow to those guys. Minus Youk and Pedroia, if any of them were true members of this proud organization, they would never allow this s*** to happen for 2 straight years. They should be ashamed, but they arent...they dont give a f***, and its pretty clear.

 

Instead of being angry with the fellow members of this board for having opinions like mine, how about you get angry at the organization that has played this way for the last 2 years?

 

Incredibly well said, dude

Mind if I expand on a few things here?

 

Even worse? Going to a game and seeing a guy catch a game winning home run in the monster seats of the opposing team and cheering. Who the f*** sings Sweet Caroline at a RedSox game after Bard/Papelbon just had a potentially catastrophic meltdown?

 

Unfortunately there are always gonna be people who wanna sing after a loss like you describe and its pretty much a joke but you cant really blame the guy who CATCHES the HR for being excited. Ive been to over 200 games and Ive never been close to a HR although i did get a foul ball hit by Ernie Whitt about a hundred years ago

 

Too many stat geeks who jumped on the bandwagon in 2004 when Bellhorn was having a sabermetric's wet dream of a season' date=' told everyone that the old school Sox fans were wrong.[/quote']

 

Simply beautiful

The only thing that would make this quote any better is the f***ing schmuck who posts Belhorn's numbers and justifies the position on either side of the arguement

 

This team sucks. They have no heart. Tito was a great manager when he had all those

 

To quote the great Bluto Blutarsky:

"Where's the spirit .... Where's the guts?"

 

They have none

The current Red Sox are everything the true Red Sox fans have despised for a loooong time. They are a collection of hired guns. Overpaid, underperforming whores who will have the unmitigated gaul to offer you a $200 hand job after you get hepatitis from her bleeding gums from the blowjob she gave you last year.

 

They are the Yankees now

Or their business model is certainly very similar

And the fan-base has this ******** sense of entitlement that only existed before 2004 in the mile wide, inch deep fan base in the Bronx

 

It's f***ing shameful

And this forum is largely a microcosm of that reality

 

As for ripping the team, either fans or media, thats really irrelevant. Ripping them a new ******* over every little thing is equivalent to drinking the Kool Aid. Neither really serves any purpose.

 

The team lacks leadership

The team lacks heart

And they have the balls of a castrated field mouse

 

I like Francona

In the grand scheme of things, he won and thats what really matters

But accountability starts at the top

And John Henry aint gonna accept it from his private suite at the soccer games in London.

Theo ain't gonna accept it cuz he's just Brian Cashman Jr now, you can nit pick some of his moves but no GM hits 1.000 and he spends the money they let him spend.

The accountability will, and should, start with Francona

As an organization, they should start making a few less Dunkin Dark Roast commercials and get back to some organizational accountability .... to a man.

Posted

So, I've read over every single post in this thread, and I truly am trying so hard to respect the opinions of everyone in here, but some people are making it extremely difficult for me to do so.

 

I have been a Red Sox fan my entire life. I have more than likely been to more games at Fenway Park than everybody on here. I've been there for the good, the bad, and the ugly, and there has been a lot of ugly.

 

There's something first that you "real fans" need to learn about this organization before you criticize the entire integrity of the ballclub. The game of baseball is changing, as it always has. The steroid/home run era is on its way out, if not completely relinquished. In these tough times with the economy, baseball clubs are doing everything they can to attract fans to games, which accounts for the players salaries. Baseball isn't just about winning. It isn't about verbally abusing your beloved team until they win 100 games a year. It isn't about turning your backs on them because they aren't performing to their potential level. Baseball is more than that to a lot of people. I don't know who is talking about "getting rid of Sweet Caroline" and all this nonsense, but you sir claim to be a "true fan" when really, I've encountered hundreds of "fans" like you in the past and I can assure you, that is not the recipe for success. Just to pick on the Sweet Caroline point for a second, that is a key example of what the Red Sox are about, what the City of Boston is about, and all of New England. Down 6-1 coming into the bottom of the 8th? So what? Let's have a beer and sing some goofy fun song. It's a family game. It's our National Pastime. It's not about angry middle aged men chirping off to players because they went 0-5 that day. It's more than that. The energy in Fenway Park is still there, more alive than ever. I don't know if you have been to Fenway in the last 5 years or so, but I can assure you nothing has changed since as long as I can remember. Every day is a playoff atmosphere.

 

Trust me, these players do want it. They want it more than anything in the world. They have heart. Perhaps they don't have the chemistry previous teams do? Possibly. But you don't know. I don't know., Nobody knows except the players, the staff, and management. That's it. But I do know as a former professional baseball player (not MLB, don't get excited) that those guys battle their asses off, day in, day out. As for the meltdown this year, guess what, that's baseball. That's not "no-heart", or lack of passion, that's baseball. It hurts like hell to watch, but that's the way it is. Nobody can sit here and tell me that Ted Williams wanted that ring any more than Papi, Dusty, 'Tek, Pap, Lester. That's just the way the game is.

 

This is what separates us from New York fans, and anybody who has been to Yankee Stadium, new or old, will know what I mean. They have the same mentality as what this man here was going on about. Boo the team, harder media, hit their noses with a newspaper. Boston fans aren't like that. Sure, we'll let them know when they're having a bad night at the dish, of course. But in general, that's not what it's about. Next time you're sitting at Fenway, have a look around. Better yet, look around when they're losing. You won't see miserable frumps yelling and cursing at the team that has made the playoffs almost every single year this decade, including 2 World Championships, you will see faithful fans having a fun time at the ballpark, with their kids, with their girlfriends, wives, parents, friends. If "real fans" were any way as the way you described they should be, it would be a sad day for the City of Boston, and all of New England.

 

Go Red Sox!

Posted
To quote the great Bluto Blutarsky:

"Where's the spirit .... Where's the guts?"

 

They have none

The current Red Sox are everything the true Red Sox fans have despised for a loooong time. They are a collection of hired guns. Overpaid, underperforming whores who will have the unmitigated gaul to offer you a $200 hand job after you get hepatitis from her bleeding gums from the blowjob she gave you last year.

 

They are the Yankees now

Or their business model is certainly very similar

And the fan-base has this ******** sense of entitlement that only existed before 2004 in the mile wide, inch deep fan base in the Bronx\

 

And one more thing, to whoever this guy is, instead of hiding behind a computer screen typing away your adorable thoughts on a safe little forum, I think you should come down to the Lansdowne Pub next season and announce that to a room full of hundreds of Sox fans. I'm sure myself and the rest of the room would love to give our opinion back to you.

Posted

If you have ever been to Boston and interact with real-life people, not people on forums, you will come to see that he is actually not right. I'm tired of hearing this argument. Every team is run like the Yankees. Every team has a payroll, and every team uses up that payroll on player salaries. Every team signs all the veterans and all-stars they possibly can. Only difference between the Pirates, Rays, Royals, and the Yankees, Red Sox, and Cubs, is the latter 3 have more money. Management's approach to signing players is the same throughout all 30 MLB clubs, and always has been. So when people argue "The Red Sox are turning into the Yankees" it's only because they actually have money in their pockets now. So no, it's not true.

 

And don't even get me started on "overpaid, under performing" because if the Sox had been the AL Wild Card Champs this year, nobody would be saying that. That's just bitterness. These guys work their asses off to get to the point they are now, and yes, to get the salaries they are making. If you're one of the top 10 best baseball players in the world, I don't think you're evil for earning, and I use the word "earning", 10-15 million dollars a year.

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