Lackey

[SoxSport]

Just want to set the record straight on Lackey:

 

From Yahoo stats,

 

Lackey's season record is 12 wins, 10 losses. ERA 5.94, WHIP 1.55

 

Total starts: 23

Quality starts (6 in/3 ER or less): 11

Cheap wins (no QS): 5

Tough Losses (QS): 4

 

Last 9 starts:

6 wins, 2 losses, 1ND

Quality starts: 3

Cheap wins: 3

Tough losses: 1

 

Lackey has a quality start a bit less than every other start. Overall his cheap wins balance out his tough losses. His ERA is 2 runs per game above the league average.

 

In his last 9 starts, where he has been a subject of focus in the media and chat groups,

his won-loss record is good, but half his wins have been cheap wins and his quality starts have been fewer--about 1 in 3.

 

So his won-loss record lately is deceiving.

 

Is he a total suck? Well, I wouldn't say so. He is just a bad signing by Theo, who thought he was getting a different pitcher.

At this point in his career, he just isn't very good. Not a #3 starter on a contender.

 

But athletes have a way of bouncing back. Look at Beckett. It can happen, though usually the problems are physical and Lackey appears to be healthy. In which case, it might be conditioning.

[Palodios]

Last year when he was very high in QS%, quality starts were overrated. This year when he's low in them, they're very relevant. Four of his starts were fairly close ( 5.2 IP--3 ER, 7 IP--4 ER, 6.2 ER 4 ER, 8 IP 4 ER), and two were 6 IP 4 ER outings. Any of those starts should win games for a team with this kind of offense.

 

SS, you're always advocating for pitchers that will go more innings and throw more pitches. Lackey is that kind of guy.

 

The offense has a bad habit of taking some nights off. They rarely ever take the night off when John Lackey is pitching. I think there is a value in a pitcher that the batters are really fighting for, because they know what he's going through. I know the sabermetric guys will argue that logic, but I have heard atleast five or six different members of the Red Sox that have publicly had Lackey's back throughout his personal issues.

[TedWilliams101]

He's making $16.5 Million a year and this is what he's given us for far in almost 2 seasons now with the Sox:

 

5.0 ERA, 1.47 WHIP, 2.16 K/BB. The best rosy-colored glass in the world aren't going to make that look any less disappointing. Mentioning wins and quality starts is just reaching for straws. Wins is completely team dependent, it's why an otherwise cy-young contesting pitcher could have an awful record and Tim Wakefield have a winning record.

[Emmz]

He isn't a bad signing, his WAR converted to $ in his previous 3 full seasons leading up to the signing were around 20M per year. Last year, he earned 15.9M of his 16.5M, this year he's stunk, there's no question, but I'm not convinced he's a bust yet. He has to put together good performances that live up to his previous norms to earn his pay, and he has to do it consistently. He can't have another year like this.

[yankees228]

I understand that he sometimes keeps his team in the game (and that the offense hits for him), but he would have, far and away, the worst ERA in the entire league if he had enough innings. I find it funny that his 2011 season is considered anything other than 'bad'.

[a700hitter]

I understand that he sometimes keeps his team in the game (and that the offense hits for him)' date=' but he would have, far and away, the worst ERA in the entire league if he had enough innings. I find it funny that his 2011 season is considered anything other than 'bad'.[/quote']

Bad? It has been a train wreck!

[yankees228]

Last year when he was very high in QS%' date=' quality starts were overrated. This year when he's low in them, they're very relevant.[/b'] Four of his starts were fairly close ( 5.2 IP--3 ER, 7 IP--4 ER, 6.2 ER 4 ER, 8 IP 4 ER), and two were 6 IP 4 ER outings. Any of those starts should win games for a team with this kind of offense.

 

SS, you're always advocating for pitchers that will go more innings and throw more pitches. Lackey is that kind of guy.

 

The offense has a bad habit of taking some nights off. They rarely ever take the night off when John Lackey is pitching. I think there is a value in a pitcher that the batters are really fighting for, because they know what he's going through. I know the sabermetric guys will argue that logic, but I have heard atleast five or six different members of the Red Sox that have publicly had Lackey's back throughout his personal issues.

 

This isn't a contradiction. Someone achieving a high amount of quality starts isn't necessarily having a good year. But if a pitcher isn't even getting quality starts (meaning most starts are worse than 6 IP, 3 ER), it's just more evidence to suggest he isn't having a good year.

[yankees228]

Bad? It has been a train wreck!

 

Somehow a chunk of the board doesn't see it that way.

[Jasonbay44]

Lackey has been absolutely terrible, people defending him saying "he has been decent, he keeps us in games" don't know what they are talking about, he has been arguably the worst starter in the MLB this season.

[a700hitter]

Lackey has been absolutely terrible' date=' people defending him saying "he has been decent, he keeps us in games" don't know what they are talking about, he has been arguably the worst starter in the MLB this season.[/quote']He has arguably been the worst Red Sox starter in 40 years.

[Station 13]

A 6 ERA and people look to spin whatever to defend the guy.

 

He stinks period.

[yankees228]

A 6 ERA and people look to spin whatever to defend the guy.

 

He stinks period.

 

Not just a 6 ERA ... a 6 ERA in a year where offense is down league wide.

[Palodios]

This isn't a contradiction. Someone achieving a high amount of quality starts isn't necessarily having a good year. But if a pitcher isn't even getting quality starts (meaning most starts are worse than 6 IP' date=' 3 ER), it's just more evidence to suggest he isn't having a good year.[/quote']

 

In the arguments last year, the point being addressed was that quality starts as a statistic was overrated. Not necessarily that John Lackey, who had a lot of quality starts, was overrated.

[Palodios]

Lackey has been absolutely terrible' date=' people defending him saying "he has been decent, he keeps us in games" don't know what they are talking about, he has been arguably the worst starter in the MLB this season.[/quote']

 

I doubt you will find a single person on this board who defends the season he's had. Its a trainwreck, and complete garbage. What myself, and others, are defending is that he's not done, and there are signs that he can improve upon this season, and still be a serviceable #4 or 5 for this team in seasons to come.

[yankees228]

In the arguments last year' date=' the point being addressed was that [i']quality starts as a statistic[/i] was overrated. Not necessarily that John Lackey, who had a lot of quality starts, was overrated.

 

OK, but quality starts are pretty overrated if the pitcher is simply doing the bare minimum to get that quality start.

[jacksonianmarch]

Lackey doesnt look like a guy who will be reliable at all in the AL East. He's lost both command AND velocity. He can still run it up there to 93mph at time, but he cannot locate it . His breaking pitches lack bite as well. Barring a complete rebirth of his stuff, he wont be a reliable anything starter in the AL East for the rest of his contract

[SCM33]

Lackey doesnt look like a guy who will be reliable at all in the AL East. He's lost both command AND velocity. He can still run it up there to 93mph at time' date=' but he cannot locate it . His breaking pitches lack bite as well. Barring a complete rebirth of his stuff, he wont be a reliable anything starter in the AL East for the rest of his contract[/quote']

 

Rather have Lackey than Burnett. What a piece of crap he is with a terrible attitude to boot. Piling on the crap, you can throw Phil Hughes in that steaming pile as well.

 

We know he sucks, we dont need Yankee fans shoveling our s***, when you already have your own piles to worry about.

[yankees228]

Rather have Lackey than Burnett. What a piece of crap he is with a terrible attitude to boot. Piling on the crap, you can throw Phil Hughes in that steaming pile as well.

 

We know he sucks, we dont need Yankee fans shoveling our s***, when you already have your own piles to worry about.

 

Lol it's a message board ... John Lackey is a topic and people can discuss it, regardless of what team they root for. Try paying attention to the message rather than the messenger.

[SCM33]

Lol it's a message board ... John Lackey is a topic and people can discuss it' date=' regardless of what team they root for. Try paying attention to the message rather than the messenger.[/quote']

 

You cant when you consider the source. Jacko loves to join sox fans misery while throwing in jabs here and there.

[TedWilliams101]

Jacksonian is right. I don't even care if he can be a serviceable 4th/5th starter. An "in the rotation by the hair of your teeth" 5th starter shouldn't be getting paid as much as the elite pitchers. I'm sick of having a quarter of this teams payroll contributing practically nothing. Lackey was brought in to be an Ace, I'm not at a point were I think "Oh, we can get something out of him". I'm at the point where if he doesn't start to turn it around early next year, his ass better be gone for good and the FO better not screw up another big contract.

[yankees228]

You cant when you consider the source. Jacko loves to join sox fans misery while throwing in jabs here and there.

 

If Jacko is incorrect, then rebut his point based on its content.

[SCM33]

Jacksonian is right. I don't even care if he can be a serviceable 4th/5th starter. An "in the rotation by the hair of your teeth" 5th starter shouldn't be getting paid as much as the elite pitchers. I'm sick of having a quarter of this teams payroll contributing practically nothing. Lackey was brought in to be an Ace' date=' I'm not at a point were I think "Oh, we can get something out of him". I'm at the point where if he doesn't start to turn it around early next year, his ass better be gone for good and the FO better not screw up another big contract.[/quote']

 

Well the fact that you hate his contract doesnt change anything. You want to be mad at someone for the contract, blame Theo. Yet another contract FA signing blunder. Cant blame Lackey for taking the money and I really dont see why everyone is so surprised with the end result. He was never an ace, and hearing the name John Lackey and ACE in the same sentence makes me cringe. He was solid, but he pitched in the AL west, a pitchers dream with those huge ballparks.

 

BTW, here is a spoiler for you, he will not turn it around next year, he is what he is and the front office cant dump him because it is such a terrible contract, and once Lackey is gone one day...Theo will just sign another bonehead deal that will piss you off.

 

He sucks, and we are stuck with him. Bottom line.

[SoxSport]

The Globe headline says "DouBront" got battered today. LOL

 

Make that 3 quality starts of the last 10 for Lackey. ERA now above 6.

 

Theo did not pay for this. I wouldn't blame him. He thought he was buying apples, and got oranges.

[seabeachfred]

Lackey has been absolutely terrible' date=' people defending him saying "he has been decent, he keeps us in games" don't know what they are talking about, he has been arguably the worst starter in the MLB this season.[/quote']

 

Boy, I have to tell you I really came a cropper with my prediction about John Lackey. Living in Southern California I saw Lackey pitch many times for the Angels and to me it looked we were getting gem. The Angels must have known something the rest of us didn't because he has been pathetic for us since we've had him. After a strong finish last year he has been probably the least effective pitcher in the league if we go by ERA.

 

In the meantime the Yankees sign two pitchers off the scrap heap who are wonders for them and their rookie pitcher is tearing up the league. Makes you wonder if the fates are working overtime against us.

[jacksonianmarch]

Rather have Lackey than Burnett. What a piece of crap he is with a terrible attitude to boot. Piling on the crap, you can throw Phil Hughes in that steaming pile as well.

 

We know he sucks, we dont need Yankee fans shoveling our s***, when you already have your own piles to worry about.

 

You'd rather have Lackey than Burnett? I mean, both of them suck balls, but Burnett has been almost a run better in ERA this yr and is over 0.1 better in WHIP. AND that is with Burnett being otherworldly awful in August so he could even sniff Lackey territory. I'd rather have Burnett since he is under contract for one less year also, so we can dump his ass sooner rather than later.

[seabeachfred]

Well the fact that you hate his contract doesnt change anything. You want to be mad at someone for the contract, blame Theo. Yet another contract FA signing blunder. Cant blame Lackey for taking the money and I really dont see why everyone is so surprised with the end result. He was never an ace, and hearing the name John Lackey and ACE in the same sentence makes me cringe. He was solid, but he pitched in the AL west, a pitchers dream with those huge ballparks.

 

BTW, here is a spoiler for you, he will not turn it around next year, he is what he is and the front office cant dump him because it is such a terrible contract, and once Lackey is gone one day...Theo will just sign another bonehead deal that will piss you off.

 

He sucks, and we are stuck with him. Bottom line.

 

SCM, well some of us can hope that Epstein takes the Cubs job and gets out of town. Unless the Red Sox hit paydirt with a couple of surprises as the Yankees did this season with Garcia and Colon, not to mention Nova's great rookie season, we are going to have to go out and sign one of the free agent pitchers available this winter. I would think that Beckett, Lester and Bucholz would make a nice Big Three but can you count on them staying healthy as Clay didn't this year. We have no one down on the farm except Renaudo and he is two years away at least. Right now I don't see us coming back and winning the division and it kills me to say it. I hate finishing behind the Yankees and even winning the season series against them pales in comparison to what might have been.

[SCM33]

SCM' date=' well some of us can hope that Epstein takes the Cubs job and gets out of town. Unless the Red Sox hit paydirt with a couple of surprises as the Yankees did this season with Garcia and Colon, not to mention Nova's great rookie season, we are going to have to go out and sign one of the free agent pitchers available this winter. I would think that Beckett, Lester and Bucholz would make a nice Big Three but can you count on them staying healthy as Clay didn't this year. We have no one down on the farm except Renaudo and he is two years away at least. Right now I don't see us coming back and winning the division and it kills me to say it. I hate finishing behind the Yankees and even winning the season series against them pales in comparison to what might have been.[/quote']

 

Arent you a Dodgers or a Brewers or a Cardinals fan?

[BOSOX11]

The Dodgers have no fans.

[TheMeanWalrus]

He's making $16.5 Million a year and this is what he's given us for far in almost 2 seasons now with the Sox:

 

don't lose any sleep over how much money he's making

you don't have to sign the check every month so don't worry about it

 

as far as his level of play....

thats worth worrying about

people are getting all up in arms about john lackeys #'s and it has some validity to it. watch the games when he pitches a little closer. throw the numbers out the window. since his early days with California, he's always been a guy who's gotten in his fair share of trouble. how lackey overcame this in the past WAS BY MAKING BIG PITCHES IN BIG SITUATIONS. he's not doing that now. couple that with the fact that he is getting in a lot more trouble, i.e., behind in a lot of counts, PLUS the fact that when he misses his spots he's missing over the middle of the plate on a ridiculously consistent level you have a recipe for disaster.

 

the guy would be defendable if guys were hitting good pitches but thats simply not the case most times and thats why he sucks.

 

i try to keep a general rule in my life that i dont publicly speak positively about anyone on that ****ing team that makes their home on 161st & River about 190 miles southwest of here but i'll make an exception for the moment to illustrate a point. mariano rivera, in addition to his sick cutter, has been successful on such a consistent basis HE DOESN'T MAKE MISTAKES OVER THE MIDDLE OF THE PLATE. compare that to a guy like lackey who couldn't hit a corner if it was the size of roseanne barr's ass and you can see the distinction between the two.

 

that being said .... obviously comparing lackey to rivera is not a fair comparison for lackey but its the most obvious comparison i can think of to illustrate the point im trying to make and i still hope rivera gets hit by a bus crossing the street

[mvp 78]

Boy, I have to tell you I really came a cropper with my prediction about John Lackey. Living in Southern California I saw Lackey pitch many times for the Angels and to me it looked we were getting gem. The Angels must have known something the rest of us didn't because he has been pathetic for us since we've had him. After a strong finish last year he has been probably the least effective pitcher in the league if we go by ERA.

 

In the meantime the Yankees sign two pitchers off the scrap heap who are wonders for them and their rookie pitcher is tearing up the league. Makes you wonder if the fates are working overtime against us.

 

"The fates." Said just like someone who became a fan in 2004. Zzzzz...