Hall of Fame Voting Discussion

[a700hitter]

I thought we should have a thread to discuss the prospects of this years candidates. Rafael Palmiero is on this years ballot, and he apparently is delusional about his steroid use.

 

Palmeiro still insists he never used steroids

By The Associated Press

December 29, 2010

 

Rafael Palmeiro is sticking to his story that a tainted vitamin shot caused his failed drug test five years ago, and hopes Hall of Fame voters will overlook the mistake and honor him for his 3,020 hits and 569 homers.

 

A week before the Baseball Writers Association of America announces its inductees to baseball's Hall of Fame, Palmeiro told SI.com in a phone interview posted Wednesday that he never used performance-enhancing drugs in his 20-year career. As he asserted in 2005 after he was suspended for failing a test, Palmeiro again insisted the anabolic steroid was in a B-12 vial given to him by Baltimore Orioles teammate Miguel Tejada.

 

"I was telling the truth then, and I am telling the truth now," Palmeiro said. "I don't know what else I can say. I have never taken steroids. For people who think I took steroids intentionally, I'm never going to convince them. But I hope the voters judge my career fairly and don't look at one mistake."

 

One of only four players in big league history with 500 homers and 3,000 hits, Palmeiro's once certain election to the Hall is in jeopardy. Baseball voters have denied Mark McGwire, 10th on the career list with 583 homers, four times and his election seems unlikely -- McGwire received only 23.7 percent of the vote last year and 75 percent is needed.

 

"I never played for the Hall of Fame," Palmeiro told SI.com on Tuesday. "I only played to win and have fun. But, yes, now the Hall of Fame is important to me. Why wouldn't I want to be there? It would mean more than anything to me. I hope they don't hold me out for one mistake at the end of my career."

 

A four-time All-Star and three-time Gold Glove first baseman, perhaps the most memorable moment Palmeiro's career came when he boldly wagged his finger at Congress in March 2005, saying "I have never used steroids. Period."

 

That July he got his 3,000th hit, and three weeks later it was announced he tested positive for steroids and was suspended 10 games.

 

Considering the elite statistics and the late period of his career, Palmeiro told the website he doesn't understand why people don't believe him.

 

"I don't want to take anything for granted, but there was a legitimate chance that I was going to get 3,000," Palmeiro said on Tuesday. "I had no motivation to take steroids because I was at the end of my career."

 

A few days before Major League Baseball made the failed test public, Palmeiro called President George W. Bush at the White House -- Bush was a former owner of the Rangers, one of Palmeiro's teams along with the Cubs and Orioles.

 

"I had a number for him, and it was a very difficult call to make because he had been so supportive of me," Palmeiro told SI.com. "I didn't want him to read about it in the newspaper or hear it on television.

 

"He's always given me good advice, and that day he told me that he was behind me. He told me to just tell the truth and let the chips fall where they may," Palmeiro recalled. "He told me to tell the truth and stick with it."

[Keeper]

Have the decency to own up to what you did, you coward. At least then I might have some respect for you.

[Poopsicle]

Can we vote his mustache in? That way he'd have to go to the ceremony since it's part of him and that would be real embarrassing like.

[a700hitter]

Have the decency to own up to what you did' date=' you coward. At least then I might have some respect for you.[/quote']

He probably has an excuse for lying too. He'll probably say that it was the viagra talking.

[jacksonianmarch]

He's taking advice from GWB. Oh boy

[Keeper]

Jeff Bagwell also denies it. If you ask me, he's full of s***. Notice how effusively he praises Bonds, McGwire, and Pettitte.

[SCM33]

Speaking of Juicers.....

 

Jose Canseco wants the Mets to invite him to spring training, as a 46 year old, and Mets fans want him.

 

http://www.hallofverygood.com/2010/12/mets-fans-want-jose-canseco.html

 

 

watch the video in that link. It is kinda scary at how hard he can still swing the bat, it almost appears the wood is bending as he swings. He was always a favorite of mine for some reason.

[VA Sox Fan]

No surprise but Bert Blyleven and Roberto Alomar were voted in today.

 

Congrats!!

[Keeper]

Two very deserving players. It's about time Blyleven got in.

[Cocos Disciples]

Surprised how few votes Jeff Bagwell got.

[BigPapiEnFuego]

I hate this steroid crap. Just vote the dudes in. I am betting they still would of been hall of famers without the steroid use. Never seen the big deal over this. What's the steroid use going to amount to, a couple extra homers a year, less time to recover from an injury, and a couple more years playing time? Big f***ing deal.

 

Look at how many nobodies have recently gotten busted for steroid use in the minors. Tons of them, and a lot of them haven't or will not end up doing s*** with their careers. Guys like Palmeiro, McGwire, Sosa, etc. were all really talented individuals to begin with. I wouldn't call them cheaters. But then again I believe what someone wants to do to their own bodies is their own goddamn business and nobody has the right to tell them what to do with it, whether it be government, employer, or anyone.

[yankees228]

I hate this steroid crap. Just vote the dudes in. I am betting they still would of been hall of famers without the steroid use. Never seen the big deal over this. What's the steroid use going to amount to, a couple extra homers a year, less time to recover from an injury, and a couple more years playing time? Big f***ing deal.

 

Look at how many nobodies have recently gotten busted for steroid use in the minors. Tons of them, and a lot of them haven't or will not end up doing s*** with their careers. Guys like Palmeiro, McGwire, Sosa, etc. were all really talented individuals to begin with. I wouldn't call them cheaters. But then again I believe what someone wants to do to their own bodies is their own goddamn business and nobody has the right to tell them what to do with it, whether it be government, employer, or anyone.

 

You likely won't find a great deal of support for this view, but when it comes to inclusion in the HOF, I'm right there with you. Barry Bonds is one of my all time favorite players, simply because I loved watching him hit. It's simply an opinion, but steroid use is meaningless to me.

[Pink_Hat_Girl]

I'm surprised Larkin didn't make it.

[Divinity]

A major league official says 'most people agree that ridding the game of amphetamines has had an even bigger impact' than steroids in reducing the offensive explosion in the game.

[BSN07]

I don't care about the steroids either. My view is they where there, they had to perform and they did. If I went an shot myself up with roids it still wouldn't get me to the majors. These guys still had a unique skill and they used it.

 

I feel they still will eventually get in. But it will have to wait until some of the old war birds don't have a vote and the newer generation takes over the majority of the voting. That's just my opinion though.

[yankees228]

I don't care about the steroids either. My view is they where there, they had to perform and they did. If I went an shot myself up with roids it still wouldn't get me to the majors. These guys still had a unique skill and they used it.

 

I feel they still will eventually get in. But it will have to wait until some of the old war birds don't have a vote and the newer generation takes over the majority of the voting. That's just my opinion though.

 

I hope you're right. I think it would be a real shame if Barry Bonds wasn't included. He's arguably the greatest offensive player of all time.

[Divinity]

You'd put Barry Bonds ahead of Babe Ruth? HR's were harder to get in Ruth's day and he was completely clean.

 

When Babe Ruth hit 60 home runs in 1927, he hit 14% of all home runs in his league that year. For a player to hit 14% of all home runs today, he would have to hit over 300 home runs in one season.

[BSN07]

You'd put Barry Bonds ahead of Babe Ruth? HR's were harder to get in Ruth's day and he was completely clean.

 

When Babe Ruth hit 60 home runs in 1927, he hit 14% of all home runs in his league that year. For a player to hit 14% of all home runs today, he would have to hit over 300 home runs in one season.

 

Babe Ruth only played against white players. Should he now be excluded from the HOF?

 

Every era is different. Comparing players from different era's is a practice in futility. Each is unique in it's on way. That's the problem. Everyone wants to draw hard lines in the sand that blanket baseball's entire history. Which is just impractical. Each era should be looked at in it's own right, and the players worthy from that era should be voted in.

[BSN07]

I hope you're right. I think it would be a real shame if Barry Bonds wasn't included. He's arguably the greatest offensive player of all time.

 

Bonds should get in. But he was a douche off the field and treated the media like s***. He realized far too late that these people he had been treating like s*** ultimately held the key to him entering the HOF. I think Barry was going to have to wait to get in before the steroid saga. But that's because I think a lot of media people are petty and they would hold off on voting him in for awhile as a final FU. Now with the general view on steroids the way it is it looks like it will even further the process if not hold him out entirely.

[Divinity]

Thats understandable, but when you're discussing 'greatest offensive player of all time' you're going to analyze players from any era.

 

There's a book written that in modern ballparks under modern rules, Ruth would have hit 104 home runs in 1921.

[yankees228]

You'd put Barry Bonds ahead of Babe Ruth? HR's were harder to get in Ruth's day and he was completely clean.

 

When Babe Ruth hit 60 home runs in 1927, he hit 14% of all home runs in his league that year. For a player to hit 14% of all home runs today, he would have to hit over 300 home runs in one season.

 

Yeah, over their entire careers I'd probably take Ruth, but no one had a better stretch than Bonds did from 2001-2004.

[Keeper]

Bonds is an interesting case. He was a Hall of Famer before he juiced and arguably the greatest all-around left fielder of all time. You can't say that about many steroid users. Clemens might be another one. Sosa flashed speed and power but couldn't hit to opposite field. Palmeiro would have likely been another Luis Gonzalez (pre-juicing) had he not cheated, IMO. Bagwell wouldn't have had the bat speed necessary with his crazy stance had he not cheated.

 

I will say this, though. As soon as a known steroid user gets into the Hall of Fame, Pete Rose needs to get in.

[Dipre]

I'm surprised Larkin didn't make it.

 

This. A million times this.

 

On a side note, a surprising amount of writers share the opinion that steroid users should be allowed in the hall, for reasons presented ad-nauseum in this thread.

 

And finally, comparing players that played in different generations is an exercise in futility. Ruth hitting over 100 homers if his 1921 was played in modern times is a prime example, giving the difference in pitching approach, the birth of specialized relievers, and strategic development. It would have never happened.

 

Every player needs to be analyzed within the context of their times, and Bonds was every bit as dominant and an overall better athlete than Ruth.

[BSN07]

Thats understandable, but when you're discussing 'greatest offensive player of all time' you're going to analyze players from any era.

 

There's a book written that in modern ballparks under modern rules, Ruth would have hit 104 home runs in 1921.

 

But he didn't. So you can only judge him on what he did during his era of baseball and all the intangibles of that era. Just like you have to judge Bonds, McGwire, Sosa and Raffy on what they did during their era. And when you look at it like that, it's obvious they should be in the HOF.

[Divinity]

I agree they should be in the HoF but the reality is in todays world being linked to steroids seems to cement your reputation as a cheater; thus denying them the honor by the voters

[BigPapiEnFuego]

Bonds is an interesting case. He was a Hall of Famer before he juiced and arguably the greatest all-around left fielder of all time. You can't say that about many steroid users. Clemens might be another one. Sosa flashed speed and power but couldn't hit to opposite field. Palmeiro would have likely been another Luis Gonzalez (pre-juicing) had he not cheated, IMO. Bagwell wouldn't have had the bat speed necessary with his crazy stance had he not cheated.

 

I will say this, though. As soon as a known steroid user gets into the Hall of Fame, Pete Rose needs to get in.

 

How is steroids going to help someone hit to the opposite side? Hitting's largely dependent on eyesight and hand-eye coordination and I doubt steroids are going to help that.

 

Palmeiro tested positive for steroids at the end of his career. That's it. Anything before then is speculation and no one can make a good decision based on pure speculation. Besides at age 26 is when his career took off, and that is about the same time most players entire their prime.

 

And whats with s***ing on Bagwell? I haven't heard speculation of him using steroids or cheating. And how do you know he couldn't generate necessary bat speed with his stance? Are you a hitting coach?

 

I can sort of agree with the Pete Rose thing, but I look at it this way. Pete Rose was in charge of a team, and while being the leader of a team and a gambler it could of led to him making on field decisions based on his gambling which could have directly affected the outcome of games. Steroids in my opinion do not directly affect the outcome of a game.

 

 

Steroid users are doing something to their own bodies. I only find it to be cheating if you do something in game, like doctoring bats, balls, gloves, etc. If some guy wants to shoot up with steroids until his nutts shrivel up and implode into themselves like a dying star leaving a black hole in his crotch then so be it. His business

[Keeper]

How is steroids going to help someone hit to the opposite side? Hitting's largely dependent on eyesight and hand-eye coordination and I doubt steroids are going to help that.

 

Palmeiro tested positive for steroids at the end of his career. That's it. Anything before then is speculation and no one can make a good decision based on pure speculation. Besides at age 26 is when his career took off, and that is about the same time most players entire their prime.

 

And whats with s***ing on Bagwell? I haven't heard speculation of him using steroids or cheating. And how do you know he couldn't generate necessary bat speed with his stance? Are you a hitting coach?

 

I can sort of agree with the Pete Rose thing, but I look at it this way. Pete Rose was in charge of a team, and while being the leader of a team and a gambler it could of led to him making on field decisions based on his gambling which could have directly affected the outcome of games. Steroids in my opinion do not directly affect the outcome of a game.

 

 

Steroid users are doing something to their own bodies. I only find it to be cheating if you do something in game, like doctoring bats, balls, gloves, etc. If some guy wants to shoot up with steroids until his nutts shrivel up and implode into themselves like a dying star leaving a black hole in his crotch then so be it. His business

 

Steroids would definitely improve eye-hand coordination. Sosa learned to hit opposite field later in his career when pitchers started to pitch him away because he was crushing everything over the plate. That's also the reason why he began to walk a lot more, IMO; pitchers had to pitch around him.

 

Palmeiro tested positive at the end of his career. So did Manny. So did A-Rod. So have a lot of others. It's fair to assume they cheated well before they were officially caught.

 

You haven't heard any speculation about Bagwell? Really? The truth is I don't know if he could have generated enough bat speed without the steroids. It's simply an opinion. Not many players could have put up the numbers he did with the stance he used. Did you know he had two 30/30 seasons and another 30/20 season. That's unheard of for a first baseman. Not that he was a first baseman, but it kind of reminds me of Canseco and his infamous 40/40 season.

 

How do steroids not affect the outcome of a game? You're telling me that a player's performance being enhanced has no effect whatsoever?

[BigPapiEnFuego]

 

How do steroids not affect the outcome of a game? You're telling me that a player's performance being enhanced has no effect whatsoever?

 

It does, I know that. But I just really think the outcome is minuscule and not worth the big deal everyone makes it to be. Any advantage gained from it is slight in my opinion. That's why I think these guys are still hall of fame worthy. Without steroids in their careers they'd still have numbers close to what they had. Like I said, so many no name people have been busted since who haven't really amounted to anything.

[Dipre]

There is no scientific evidence that steroids do anything other than improve strength and overall recuperation speed. The hand-eye coordination improvement issue is nothing more than speculation.

 

Some players being able to hammer the ball the other way can be explained by increase in strength, since Sosa (the example here) was always a dead-pull hitter, but with the increased strength from steroids, balls hit late that would have been fly-outs became XBH or home runs.

[Divinity]

Would you want your kid thinking he has to use steroids just to have a "shot" at being a professional athlete.?

 

The advantages of steroids are is more then 'slight' I think 'significant' would be more accurate. If it wasn't, why put yourself through serious health risks for a 'slight' improvement?

 

Using PEDs is akin to Barry Bonds using an aluminum bat, Roger Clemens using a smaller baseball, Tiger Woods using an unapproved ball or club or carrying an extra club, or Roberto Luongo using 20-inch wide goalie pads.