Moss to Vikings?

[Dojji]

Oh yeah and that terrible D? The one that no way it could carry the team? The one that was full of talentless rookies who definitely and absolutely sucked?

 

3 INT's and had Sanchez off balance all game.

 

Yeah. So how's that working out for ya?

[Emmz]

Oh yeah and that terrible D? The one that no way it could carry the team? The one that was full of talentless rookies who definitely and absolutely sucked?

 

3 INT's and had Sanchez off balance all game.

 

Yeah. So how's that working out for ya?

 

Yes, they really shut down the titanic offense that is the New York Jets.

[Emmz]

45 vs the "best defense in the NFL"

 

Where you at, Emmz?

 

 

This team is overperforming. You're out of your mind if you actually thought that this team was going to beat the Jets this bad, or even beat the Colts or Steelers. They've got a bunch of nobodies who are playing a flukish levels, it was unpredictable. Show me where you said the Patriots' offense was going to somehow manage to flourish, and I'll say you were right.

 

That's right, you didn't, you said you expected them to revert to a ball control style, something that they tried for about 5 weeks, and played horribly. Last three games they've been trying to move the ball downfield with more passes, Brady's hit his stride, and they've had massive step-ups from lots of unknown players. Pretty much the exact opposite of what you and Dojji thought was going to happen happened.

 

You shouldn't be so smug unless you were actually right, when you were completely incorrect.

[YanksHater213]

I said this team as a whole would be better than they were before they got rid of Moss. That's a fact. If you can't see we're a better team after routing both the Steelers and the Jets on national TV, then you're bat s*** crazy, even moreso than I originally thought.

[Dojji]

 

This team is overperforming. You're out of your mind if you actually thought that this team was going to beat the Jets this bad, or even beat the Colts or Steelers. They've got a bunch of nobodies who are playing a flukish levels, it was unpredictable. Show me where you said the Patriots' offense was going to somehow manage to flourish, and I'll say you were right.

 

Except that Pats fans have been here before. All through the early stages of the dynasty the Pats were called fluky, outperforming, whatever term you want to use for "they're better than the stats seem to indicate they should be." Any objection along that strain just makes weathered Pats fans chuckle knowingly. We've heard it a few times over the last decade.

 

Simple reason why. Because they know what they're doing out there. Because BB is a coach that knows his playbook, Brady a quarterback that knows his playbook, and both of them know how to integrate new elements into the old schemes. Because they know how to make the plays that really matter, when they matter, and they know how to amp themselves up for critical games. And because the young players on their roster are improving as the season goes on because they're being well coached.

 

This isn't outperformance, It's growth, This is a team that has turned over its roster and has many young, developing players, and they're getting better as time goes on. The Moss trade did catalyze this growth, because it signified what style the Patriots would play going forward and the fact that it was time to hand the ball to the next generation as they've been drafted and readied by BB. They're not playing as badly as you projected simply because you underestimated the hell out of the Patriots youth movement, that's the end of that as far as I'm concerned. Guys like Hernandez, Woodhead and BJGE on offense, McCourt, Chung and Sanders on D, these are the new Pats stalwarts, and I'll be very surprised if they don't take us back to the Superbowl in the very near future.

 

Sure there's no reason to have supposed that they could get it together this fast -- if you're a Vikings fan. Pats fans have seen this before a few times. We know better than to understimate Belichick and Brady when they have a team worth working with.

[ORS]

 

This team is overperforming. You're out of your mind if you actually thought that this team was going to beat the Jets this bad, or even beat the Colts or Steelers. They've got a bunch of nobodies who are playing a flukish levels, it was unpredictable. Show me where you said the Patriots' offense was going to somehow manage to flourish, and I'll say you were right.

 

That's right, you didn't, you said you expected them to revert to a ball control style, something that they tried for about 5 weeks, and played horribly. Last three games they've been trying to move the ball downfield with more passes, Brady's hit his stride, and they've had massive step-ups from lots of unknown players. Pretty much the exact opposite of what you and Dojji thought was going to happen happened.

 

You shouldn't be so smug unless you were actually right, when you were completely incorrect.

Priceless. You make some strong statements about the impact of losing Moss, the opposite happens, and you call "fluke"?

 

"Mea culpa", that's the post you were looking for.

[Emmz]

Priceless. You make some strong statements about the impact of losing Moss, the opposite happens, and you call "fluke"?

 

"Mea culpa", that's the post you were looking for.

 

Cool story bro, send it to reader's digest.

[Emmz]

I said this team as a whole would be better than they were before they got rid of Moss. That's a fact. If you can't see we're a better team after routing both the Steelers and the Jets on national TV' date=' then you're bat s*** crazy, even moreso than I originally thought.[/quote']

 

LOL, you guys also lost to the Browns, and gave Brett Favre one of his two or three best games of the year. If you think that Moss would have made them lose those two games, then you're batshit crazy, even moreso than I originally thought.

[Dojji]

I'm sorry, what was your point again? It seems to have been lost in a sea of denial and a lame attempt to CYA.

[Emmz]

Except that Pats fans have been here before. All through the early stages of the dynasty the Pats were called fluky' date=' outperforming, whatever term you want to use for "they're better than the stats seem to indicate they should be." Any objection along that strain just makes weathered Pats fans chuckle knowingly. We've heard it a few times over the last decade.[/quote']

 

Tom Brady was the only member of the 2001 team or the following SB teams that you could even call a fluke. You're just pulling this out of your ass for the sake of your argument. The 2001 Patriots were not a very good team on paper, in fact, they were pretty bad. They had a mediocre defense, and a mediocre offense, and could very easily have finished with 4 or 5 wins. Their next Super Bowl year is where they loaded up with talent, had league best defense, etc.

 

Simple reason why. Because they know what they're doing out there. Because BB is a coach that knows his playbook, Brady a quarterback that knows his playbook, and both of them know how to integrate new elements into the old schemes. Because they know how to make the plays that really matter, when they matter, and they know how to amp themselves up for critical games. And because the young players on their roster are improving as the season goes on because they're being well coached.

 

You can't coach players to play this well, otherwise the 2008 Patriots might have had a chance. You're giving Belichick (Who I believe will someday retire the greatest coach in NFL history, btw) entirely too much credit. Coaching does not turn you from a nobody, into an above-average player. No one predicted your TE or your WR or two RB would have this level of production.

 

This isn't outperformance, It's growth, This is a team that has turned over its roster and has many young, developing players, and they're getting better as time goes on. The Moss trade did catalyze this growth, because it signified what style the Patriots would play going forward and the fact that it was time to hand the ball to the next generation as they've been drafted and readied by BB. They're not playing as badly as you projected simply because you underestimated the hell out of the Patriots youth movement, that's the end of that as far as I'm concerned. Guys like Hernandez, Woodhead and BJGE on offense, McCourt, Chung and Sanders on D, these are the new Pats stalwarts, and I'll be very surprised if they don't take us back to the Superbowl in the very near future.

 

Did you ever calculate this growth, or expect it to this level? Legitimate question, I don't think anyone did.

 

Sure there's no reason to have supposed that they could get it together this fast -- if you're a Vikings fan. Pats fans have seen this before a few times. We know better than to understimate Belichick and Brady when they have a team worth working with.

 

You'll always be given a solid team with those two, you are correct. But this is beyond what anyone could have expected.

[Emmz]

I'm sorry' date=' what was your point again? It seems to have been lost in a sea of denial and a lame attempt to CYA.[/quote']

 

Because my entire point was that losing Moss is not going to make this team better. I will admit that I underestimated his lack of motivation. He's pretty much at Raiders Moss levels. I thought playing with Harvin and eventually Rice would help Favre not suck so hard, and Moss would gain some motivation. I also admit that the Patriots offense is very good right now, but that's not due to the loss of Moss. In fact, there's no reason to believe that a motivated Moss couldn't have made the Jets game an even bigger blow out, etc. Moss was a valuable weapon who lost his motivation to play, to where he was really only good as a decoy.

[Dojji]

Funny thing is, results disagree with you.

 

Moss's departure changed their style of play. You were right about that at least, they certainly aren't the same as they were with him here. With him here they were geared up as a quick, explosive offense looking for quick possessions, big gains. With him gone we play underneath, go for YAC, run the clock and have to play smarter football to succeed.

 

Where you miss the boat is, Bill Belichick and Tom Brady are both perfectly positioned to play the style we have to play without Moss. Gronkowski, Hernandez and Woodhead probably don't play the same roles if Moss is here, and collectively that's as big a loss as he was a gain. Those three have been key to what we've done in the post-Moss era and they don't get the ball if he's here doin his thing.

 

The other point you're missing is that the style the team is playing now is anathema to a Moss. It's not a fit with what he's out there to be. He's an explosion/quick possession offensive player who gets the ball all the time, the entire rest of the team is built around time of possession and a steady progression downfield and having a number of targets. Having him here when he'd declined enough that the time came to get back to playing Patriots football again was always going to be a chemistry issue because no way was he going to keep getting the ball thrown to him as much as it had been.

 

Finally, Patriots style football was what we needed to get back to for the sake of our young, developing D. Moss's style calls for quick possessions, one of the things that means is the D is on the field a fair bit. Our D is too inexperienced to have a lot of success that way. You need tough veteran D to succeed in Moss's style, that can eat a ton of minutes without hurting the team, that's not what we have. Hasn't been since 07.

 

We needed to limit time of possession by the opponent, that meant plating a style of football Moss would never accept. You could see it even while we were still here, Belichick was trying to control time of possession and shelter the D, and Moss wanted the ball and wanted to go get a touchdown. It was a problem that wasn't going to get better this year. We do have one of the, if not the youngest defense corps in the league after all.

 

I just think on the whole, just assuming that adding Moss adds offense without taking anything else away, is such a shallow analysis that it fails the "think about it for a minute, then post" test. You change your whole style to accomodate a guy like Moss. That's what "game changing wide reciever" means. And that also means you change your whole style to compensate for the lack of a guy like Moss. You really think that keeping Moss, that the only thing that would be different is a few more touchdowns? When the Patriots over the last 9 games have played a radically different style of football that has no room for a player like that? Seriously?

 

...

 

Seriously?

[Emmz]

Wat.

[Emmz]

Saw the blurb at Yahoo as I was looking up something else. Absolutely stunned.

 

Is this a sign that the team is officially "transitioning" and building up its younger core instead of shooting full-out for a championship at this time?

 

Waaaaattttt?????

[boston22407]

moss is a old ass bum he has not done do shut since leaving ne , were lucky we got a 3rd. round pick for his ugly ass, he should of just shut up and played for the pats

[Dojji]

Saw the blurb at Yahoo as I was looking up something else. Absolutely stunned.

 

Is this a sign that the team is officially "transitioning" and building up its younger core instead of shooting full-out for a championship at this time?

Waaaaattttt?????

 

Turns out the transition was a little shorter than I thought it would be.

[RedSoxfanforlife305]

Cool story bro' date=' send it to reader's digest.[/quote']

 

Rofllll I love you Emmz. Btw you can't say "cool story bro" that's my line.

[TheKilo]

Using the 2008 Pats isn't the best example when they wen 11-5 with a guy who didn't play QB since HS.

[Dojji]

Yeah but that guy has now gone on to be a fairly effective starting QB with the Chiefs, who are a good bet for the playoffs at this point. Sure Moss helped him look good, just like the KC running game is helping him look good, but he's always been a competent quarterback. The reason that he didn't play was because he was stuck behind better QB's, not because he himself was terrible. Now that he's had his time to shine, Matt Cassel looks to be making a solid career for himself as an upper mid tier QB making the Chiefs' decision to spend a pick to bring him in a smart one.

 

Besides, this is kinda the Tim Thomas argument all over again. When a guy gets his chance and does well with it, the fact that he took as long as he did to GET the chance should not be held against him. Cassel by and large held up his end of the bargain -- way better than most backup QB's would have, in fact. There are plenty of quarterbacks in this league who would NOT have gone 11-5 even with the crew Patriots put around Cassel that year. And there are at least 3 games I can remember where major screwups by other facets of the team, generally the defense, cost us games Cassel put us in position to win. The Colts game, the Steelers spring to mind and I'm dead positive there was at least one more. (EDIT: Jets' overtime loss)

 

Hey who'd we get with that pick anyway?

 

EDIT: Looks like it may have been Patrick Chung? If so, that was a real win-win. I've been pretty impressed with Chung at times this year.

[SCM33]

LOL' date=' you guys also lost to the Browns, and gave Brett Favre one of his two or three best games of the year. If you think that Moss would have made them lose those two games, then you're batshit crazy, even moreso than I originally thought.[/quote']

 

Really?

 

Had the Patriots played even a decent game against them, they would be 11-1 right now.

 

Yeah, they gave Favre one of his best games of the year.....they do that to almost every QB they play on a weekly basis.

 

Heres the thing though......they are 10-2.

 

They have gotten BETTER in almost every week they have played. They have the BEST offense in the game.....and that is INCLUDING some hiccups in the weeks immediately after the Moss trade.

 

After they made the Moss trade, I said it would not matter that they lost Moss...because they werent going to the SB anyway.

 

They made me eat my words. I love this team and I underestimated them. They very well could be superbowl bound.

 

The NFL is not a defensive league anymore. Look at all the ways the league has tried to make the league a weaker, more "glamorous" league with all the stupid fines and s***.

 

Would they be 10-2 with Moss? I dont care.....either way we are contending for the superbowl right now.

 

The Patriots are the best team in the NFL right now.....and they are getting better each week, not worse.

[YanksHater213]

Randy who?

 

Last 6 quarters we have 78 points and WE DONT EVEN HAVE MOSS THE MOST TALENTED PLAYER IN THE WORLD HOW WILL WE EVER SURVIVE WITHOUT HIM!!!!!

 

Oh and we've only allowed 3. Losing Randy made us better on both sides of the ball, and more importantly in the locker room.

 

I can never get sick of bumping this thread.

[italstallianion]

Looks like Emmz is getting double/triple teamed here. And for once she isn't enjoying it.

[SCM33]

shucks....

 

Randy Moss was the end of the Patriots offense.

[bsox0407]

Looks like Emmz is getting double/triple teamed here. And for once she isn't enjoying it.

 

ahhahahahhahhahahhahahahahhahahaqhhahaqhahahahhahahahah

[RedSoxfanforlife305]

Poor Emmz lol. Let the war end already.

[YanksHater213]

With Randy Moss:

NE PPG: 32.75

Opp PPG: 24

 

Without Randy Moss:

NE PPG: 31.5

Opp PPG: 17.7

[italstallianion]

With Randy Moss:

NE PPG: 32.75

Opp PPG: 24

 

Without Randy Moss:

NE PPG: 31.5

Opp PPG: 17.7

 

So the loss of Moss did have a negative effect on the offense.

[YanksHater213]

Well the first one should be a lot lower, the second one should be a little lower, cause I didn't differentiate bewteen offensive points and defensive/ST points, and we had about 21 in that Miami game, so they should be around even to slightly lower with Moss.

[TheKilo]

Should we just rename this thread "Pat ourselves on the back when the Pats win"?

[SCM33]

Should we just rename this thread "Pat ourselves on the back when the Pats win"?

 

Yeah....screw you Patriots fans for being pumped about the Patriots winning.

 

Screw you guys because we were wrong!!!!!! So the next best thing is to insult Pats fans. Hey Pats fans you had nothing to do with the win!!! Pat yourself on the back!!!!