Moss to Vikings?

[italstallianion]

Yeah....screw you Patriots fans for being pumped about the Patriots winning.

 

Screw you guys for going 9-1 after your team traded Moss, and the fact that many people here told you that they would suck.

 

Screw you guys because we were wrong!!!!!! So the next best thing is to insult Pats fans. Hey Pats fans you had nothing to do with the win!!! Pat yourself on the back!!!!

 

 

 

What should I do? Should I make things go back to what they were? Should I accept my role as the villain? Should I just....disappear?

[SCM33]

What should I do? Should I make things go back to what they were? Should I accept my role as the villain? Should I just....disappear?

 

Not quite sure what you are getting at there.....but screw you Pats fans! No fanboy crap here. Only serious stuff!

[RedSoxfanforlife305]

Pretty sure it was a LeBron reference. I could be wrong though.

[SCM33]

Pretty sure it was a LeBron reference. I could be wrong though.

 

Nope, you are right....went right over my head.

[TheKilo]

Yeah....screw you Patriots fans for being pumped about the Patriots winning.

 

Screw you guys because we were wrong!!!!!! So the next best thing is to insult Pats fans. Hey Pats fans you had nothing to do with the win!!! Pat yourself on the back!!!!

 

Don't you have a whole message board devoted to Pats love, though? I mean, what's the point of bumping this thread every week? It's clear who was right in this situation, so why do we need the constant mutual admiration society?

[Palodios]

*points to sig*

[ORS]

Don't you have a whole message board devoted to Pats love' date=' though? I mean, what's the point of bumping this thread every week? It's clear who was right in this situation, so why do we need the constant mutual admiration society?[/quote']

I said it last week, and she blew it off, but it bears repeating. A "mea cupla" would probably make the back slapping go away, but she prefers to stick to her guns, so this will continue.

[Palodios]

It bears repeating... Clever.

[ORS]

Unintentional pun, but now that you mention it, it does work.

[Emmz]

I said it last week' date=' and she blew it off, but it bears repeating. A "mea cupla" would probably make the back slapping go away, but she prefers to stick to her guns, so this will continue.[/quote']

 

No, I actually admitted I was wrong, that the Pats are just fine without Moss. What I wanted to get by was that the Patriots are playing well because a group that no one's heard of is stepping up. Their two best receivers have been non-factors this season (Moss, and Welker has been pretty much shut down) while Deion Branch has been more productive than either player, someone who was earlier said to be "not even half the man Moss was".

 

What I was trying to get across were three things:

 

1. The Patriots should still be worried about their defense, it's still very below-average.

 

2. That Dojji (who claims to have seen this coming) did not see this coming. He was on board with the bridge-season theory.

 

3. Everyone here who said they would be better, or just as good, had said they would revert to old-school Patriots football. Those teams were based on defense and ball control. This team is offensive minded, and below-average defensively.

 

Last page, I admitted I was wrong, and the Patriots are good. The first four-or-so games they played were pretty good cause for concern, but they picked it up, even after losing to the lowly Browns, they picked it up and destroyed some of the elite teams.

[YanksHater213]

Below average defensively? Since we got rid of Moss we're allowing a TD less per game (17ish ppg)

 

We just allowed 10 points in 2 games vs teams who are a combined 18-8. Jsut because our defense wasn't great to start doesn't mean it isn't improving. (pro-tip: it is, at an alarmingly high rate)

[Dojji]

2. That Dojji (who claims to have seen this coming) did not see this coming. He was on board with the bridge-season theory.

 

I never ruled out this version of the Pats making a playoff run. I freely admit they vastly exceeded my expectations, I was thinking "last minute squeaker for the wild card" rather than "lock up the division" but they didn't need to do this well to do what I called -- master the short game the way the Patriots always have and get in somehow. My only point, and it's one I raised in page 1, is that the Patriots know exactly how to do what they have to do to win without Moss, and in that sense I was proven 1,000% right.

 

If this season does nothing else, it should dispel the "Tom Brady is nothing special" stuff as the last excuses the handful of die-hard holdouts have been clinging to desperately disappear one by one. Yes he can play up-tempo offense. Yes he can run a potent offense. Yes he can do it without Randy Moss. There'll always be a few idiots in total denial, but it's time to consign them to the hopeless pile and move on.

 

Oh and Emmz? Never mistake a young defense for a bad defense. New England's D squad may have come out the gate slow, but they were always a young, very talented group and they're in the hands of a very good coaching staff. I'll admit I didn't really see them coming into their own until next year, that just goes back to what I said about the coaches though. BB has done it to the league again. :harhar:

 

Oh, and only a total blank-stair, straitjacket idiot fails to recognize that the short game can generate tons of offense. We were highlighting ball control because I don't think any of us saw Woodhead, Hernandez and Gronkowski stepping up the way they have, but this version of the Patriots offense is kind of the ur-example of the short game done perfectly. Less deep throws -- a lot less -- and far more running after the catch than they did with Moss. Since Brady has 5 different guys he can throw to in a given play, any of who can make the catch and then run awhile, I might even venture to say the recieving game has improved in the post-Moss era, drastically. People who called that were called delusional on page 1. I wasn't that brave, now I'm wishing I had done.

[Dojji]

Couldn't quite let this go by.

 

Moss is going to average 90 yards per game with Minnesota and be Favre's binky. This move is going to get the Vikings back to the playoffs

 

Jacko, as accurate and prescient as usual in his discussion of things New England sports related.

[SCM33]

3. Everyone here who said they would be better, or just as good, had said they would revert to old-school Patriots football. Those teams were based on defense and ball control. This team is offensive minded, and below-average defensively.

 

Emmz, I respect your football knowledge. I really do. Here are some things to consider however.

 

They HAVE reverted to their old school philosophy. They are throwing screens all day long. They are using dink and dunk.....this version uses the TE's more than they did in the past. They are running the ball, they are play faking. You mention that the old school team relied on ball control....this season has been Bradys BEST season in terms of ball control. 6 straight games of 2 TD passes and 0 INT. The longest active streak in terms of completions without an interception. They have not had a turnover in FIVE games. BJGE has not fumbled a single time all year long.

 

They have done everything....and BETTER than the old school Patriots teams did offensively, and they have more balance than the 07 team did.

 

The defense is getting better. Yeah they sucked, and sucked bad at one point....but they are now starting to pressure QB's and getting turnovers. 2 INTs this week. 2 fumbles forced this week. Mccourty is second in the NFL in interceptions.

 

Yeah this team may be flawed right now. But they are also one of the youngest units in the entire league. They are getting better.

 

 

People who called that were called delusional on page 1. I wasn't that brave' date=' now I'm wishing I had done.[/quote']

People like me? Its ok, I wore my cape and ate my wheaties that day (actually I was page 2 and 3).

[Emmz]

Emmz, I respect your football knowledge. I really do. Here are some things to consider however.

 

They HAVE reverted to their old school philosophy. They are throwing screens all day long. They are using dink and dunk.....this version uses the TE's more than they did in the past. They are running the ball, they are play faking. You mention that the old school team relied on ball control....this season has been Bradys BEST season in terms of ball control. 6 straight games of 2 TD passes and 0 INT. The longest active streak in terms of completions without an interception. They have not had a turnover in FIVE games. BJGE has not fumbled a single time all year long.

 

They have done everything....and BETTER than the old school Patriots teams did offensively, and they have more balance than the 07 team did.

 

The defense is getting better. Yeah they sucked, and sucked bad at one point....but they are now starting to pressure QB's and getting turnovers. 2 INTs this week. 2 fumbles forced this week. Mccourty is second in the NFL in interceptions.

 

Yeah this team may be flawed right now. But they are also one of the youngest units in the entire league. They are getting better.

 

Two things:

 

They're not a solid, or even adequate defensive unit. They're still bad. Dojji says "young", but that's counting your chickens before they hatch. At the moment, the defense is bad, and that's being very generous, they're one of the worst units in the NFL.

 

They're flawed, but they're not getting better yet. Getting better means they've turned the corner for good, if next year they're somewhere in the middle of the pack defensively, once again I'll admit they were young, and undeveloped. Right now, they're just not very good. I'm not one to evaluate based on potentials.

 

Finally, they have absolutely not reverted to their 2001-2004 philosophy. They're offensive minded. They move the ball well. Why do you think BB keeps going for it on 4th downs? In fact, I believe YH213 (I'm not ragging on him, for once, he was the only person who originally expected the Patriots to be better without Moss) said that it was because BB trusts his offense more than his defense these days. You can revert to an old philosophy if you're doing the exact opposite as the previous philosophy, it doesn't make sense.

[SCM33]

Finally' date=' they have absolutely not reverted to their 2001-2004 philosophy. They're offensive minded. They move the ball well. Why do you think BB keeps going for it on 4th downs? In fact, I believe YH213 (I'm not ragging on him, for once, he was the only person who originally expected the Patriots to be better without Moss) said that it was because BB trusts his offense more than his defense these days. You can revert to an old philosophy if you're doing the exact opposite as the previous philosophy, it doesn't make sense.[/quote']

 

BB goes for it on 4th down because offensively, this team is a lot better than it has been previously. When they are on the opponents side of the 50, he knows they are capable of converting and scoring 7 instead of missing a long FG and giving the other team field position.

 

It can also be argued that he goes for it on 4th down because he thinks his defense is garbage.....that may be true, but you still have to trust your offense to convert.

 

What about myself supporting the move? Sorry, I had to work 3-11 that night and my first post regarding the trade was at 1150pm that night. I have been ALL for the move the second it happened. I find it ridiculous I actually have to defend myself about it.

 

What are we arguing exactly? The original premise of this discussion was the fact that the Patriots would be fine without Randy Moss. They are the best team in the NFL....they are the best offense in the NFL.

 

What else needs to be discussed? Good riddance Randy Moss.

 

EDIT: I agree, their defense has been weak....age/experience related or not.

[Emmz]

People who called that were called delusional on page 1. I wasn't that brave' date=' now I'm wishing I had done.[/quote']

 

No one gave anyone legitimate reasons for the receiving being better post-Moss. In fact, the receiving was probably a little better, if not at least a wash during the Moss era of this season.

 

Brady was playing very well with Moss, Brady after adjusting, has played very well without him. I wouldn't call them better passing without Moss, although, all Moss could do was stretch the field (he did do that) but was a lost cause as far as throwing it to him. He has no motivation, wouldn't be surprised if he talks about retiring, although I would be surprised if he permanently retired.

[ORS]

Finally' date=' they have absolutely not reverted to their 2001-2004 philosophy. They're offensive minded. They move the ball well. Why do you think BB keeps going for it on 4th downs? In fact, I believe YH213 (I'm not ragging on him, for once, he was the only person who originally expected the Patriots to be better without Moss) said that it was because BB trusts his offense more than his defense these days. You can revert to an old philosophy if you're doing the exact opposite as the previous philosophy, it doesn't make sense.[/quote']

This is conflating things. I agree, they aren't the same team as 2001-2004 because the defense isn't as good. However, the defense not being as good does not mean they have not modified their offensive scheme back to the one they had at that time. SCM is right, there's been a paradigm shift. They are hitting the under route more, they are throwing more screens, lining up with two TE more, and running more (and more effectively). This obviously has been due to the change in personnel, but those that called for it and suggested they'd have more success with it are, to this point, kind of vindicated.

[Dojji]

Except that none of us really thought the transition would succeed this brilliantly. I was expecting a true "return to fundamentals" and a lot of growing pains as a result as the youngsters were slowly and painstakingly crafted into a football team. Apparently I hadn't counted on the fact that a lot of the slow, painstaking crafting happened last year after a number of our defensive stalwarts went down or moved on giving these guys all kinds of playing time.

 

I think everyone kinda suspected it might turn out something like this, if for no other reason than "never understimate what BB can get done with a talented young team." I didn't call it because I didn't want to be the one out there talking out of my posterior. It's no secret football's only, like, my third sport behind baseball and hockey in terms of what I know about the innards of it. So all I did was hint around the edges about a mobe made while there was still postseason to play for, instead of being bold enough to make a solid prediction. Should have trusted my instincts. Oh well.

[Emmz]

This is conflating things. I agree' date=' they aren't the same team as 2001-2004 because the defense isn't as good. However, the defense not being as good does not mean they have not modified their offensive scheme back to the one they had at that time. SCM is right, there's been a paradigm shift. They are hitting the under route more, they are throwing more screens, lining up with two TE more, and running more (and more effectively). This obviously has been due to the change in personnel, but those that called for it and suggested they'd have more success with it are, to this point, kind of vindicated.[/quote']

 

They don't have the defense to revert to the old philosophy. While the offense might be better, and while the offensive playbook may have reverted somewhat back to 2001-2004, it never actually left. Even when they were airing it out to Moss, they were throwing short passes to Welker. You could just as easily argue that the "air-it-out" Pats, with a good chunk of their yardage coming from short passes and a tandem of running backs, never totally abandoned their old offensive playbook.

 

They went for the score rather than being conservative, yes, but so does this team. At best, "reverting to 2001-2004 Patriots mode" is only half-correct.

[Emmz]

BB goes for it on 4th down because offensively, this team is a lot better than it has been previously. When they are on the opponents side of the 50, he knows they are capable of converting and scoring 7 instead of missing a long FG and giving the other team field position.

 

It can also be argued that he goes for it on 4th down because he thinks his defense is garbage.....that may be true, but you still have to trust your offense to convert.

 

What about myself supporting the move? Sorry, I had to work 3-11 that night and my first post regarding the trade was at 1150pm that night. I have been ALL for the move the second it happened. I find it ridiculous I actually have to defend myself about it.

 

I think it's partially because of a lack of trust in his defense. I think every coach with a good offense, but also a good defense, does the punt. BB doesn't anymore, even though he used to, which goes back to what I said about them not reverting to old-school Patriots football.

 

Also, you have to know, one of the biggest no-nos in coaching is going for it on 4th down. You should be able to trust your offense to go for it if the occasion rises, but BB has gone for it while ahead by more than a field goal, which is completely unnecessary if you trust your defense.

 

What are we arguing exactly? The original premise of this discussion was the fact that the Patriots would be fine without Randy Moss. They are the best team in the NFL....they are the best offense in the NFL.

 

What else needs to be discussed? Good riddance Randy Moss.

 

Nothing, it's a discussion board, so we discuss it. Also, do you think that a the Patriots would be better as they are right now, or with a 100%, fully motivated Randy Moss? I had no idea until I actually saw him play that he was playing like that again. He was like a void in the receiving corps.

[SCM33]

I think it's partially because of a lack of trust in his defense. I think every coach with a good offense, but also a good defense, does the punt. BB doesn't anymore, even though he used to, which goes back to what I said about them not reverting to old-school Patriots football.

 

Also, you have to know, one of the biggest no-nos in coaching is going for it on 4th down. You should be able to trust your offense to go for it if the occasion rises, but BB has gone for it while ahead by more than a field goal, which is completely unnecessary if you trust your defense.

 

He doesnt trust his defense like he used to.....you are right and its pretty clear they are nowhere close to what they once were. I am not arguing that.

 

I dont see it as a "no-no" to go for it on fourth down. How many times have you found yourself screaming at the TV to "go for it". Unlike most teams, we have a coach who has the balls to put the petal to the medal. 4th and less than 1 with Brady quick snapping a qb sneak has a high percentage conversion rate. Its almost automatic.

 

In the last couple of years, a study was actually done showing that going for it on 4th down might actually be better than punting the ball, assuming you are on your opponents side of the field. Here is a link to that study:

 

http://elsa.berkeley.edu/~dromer/papers/JPE_April06.pdf

 

Ever think that the reason he goes for it so much is because he considers that a better scheme than punting the ball? Its great to pin a team inside the 20, but that is rarer than we think. Most likely the result will be touchback, and the punt gained 20 total net yards. Why not go for it and at least move the ball, kill some clock and try to get some points out of it? Its better than no points at all. Ever think that maybe BB is ahead of the curve?? (as he almost always is).

 

 

Nothing, it's a discussion board, so we discuss it. Also, do you think that a the Patriots would be better as they are right now, or with a 100%, fully motivated Randy Moss? I had no idea until I actually saw him play that he was playing like that again. He was like a void in the receiving corps.

 

I loved what Randy did in 07. I loved what he did for Matt Cassel in 08, but last year he started to wear on me. Last year he started his s***, it was only a matter of time. Give the Patriots credit, they diagnosed and got rid of the cancer before it became terminal.

 

Randy Moss was NEVER 100% motivated this year. Like I said, this was only going to get worse. It was never going to get better. Shame on Moss, he dug his own grave. If you dont give 100% to BB and this team all game, every game.....he will replace you. It doesnt matter who you are. Nobody is above the team on that squad. BB says it over and over....."do your job", Randy Moss clearly did not and met his demise.

[SCM33]

kinda funny...

 

anyone hear that he is accused of calling TEN talkshows as "Woody" and criticizing Jeff Fisher?

 

If true.....it will be the third team this year sick of his act.

 

Oakland was sick of him.

Patriots got sick of him.

Minnesota brought him back inexplicably.

Tennessee has all but seen enough.

 

So much for that extension Randy. So much for a big contract Randy. So much for your NFL future Randy, you did this to yourself.

[boston22407]

I bet moss is on the pats still we lose that Gb game . I don't know why but I just have a feeling about it