Waiver Wire 2010

[a700hitter]

Reasonable cost? I'd be pissed if the Sox traded away their #2 prospect for someone like Matt Capps.

Even if we didn't have Papelbon or Bard, and even if that prospect had no opportunity of being a backup catcher for the Sox? I wouldn't be pissed. I'd be happy to have closer to get us to the playoffs.

[ORS]

But the primary gripe by you guys has been that you think the Sox should have paid that rate to get a guy like Capps.....even with Papelbon and Bard. Our need is not the same as the Twins, and our #2 prospect at the time of that trade was probably Ryan Kalish. No, I don't make that trade.

[a700hitter]

But the primary gripe by you guys has been that you think the Sox should have paid that rate to get a guy like Capps.....even with Papelbon and Bard. Our need is not the same as the Twins' date=' and our #2 prospect at the time of that trade was probably Ryan Kalish. No, I don't make that trade.[/quote']I never specified Capps as Sox need. I'm not specifying any particular player. The only points that I'm making is that lots of teams made moves to improve and plug holes. We did nothing. The explanation in past years has been that the price was too high and we didn't want to sacrifice the future. I haven't heard that explanation as much this year-- probably because it is not true. It's not reasonable to believe that all of the other teams that made moves were willing to sacrifice their futures. Lots of teams made lots of moves this year. We made none. Those are facts. The real reasons for staying pat are are unknown to us. IMO, this was a miscalculation. Even this limping crippled team had a playoff shot, and once in the playoffs with Lester and Buchholz (and god forbid Lackey and Beckett start pitching like Lackey and beckett) and Papelbon and Bard, they could have been a very dangerous team. By standing pat, they folded their tent on this season.

[Dojji]

I never specified Capps as Sox need. I'm not specifying any particular player.

 

Yes we know -- and that's part of the problem. If you were specific, it'd be easier to make a counterpoint based on the price the market has set on a leverage reliever. As it is, without being any more specific than you were, all we have is a "They Should Have Done Something." Fairly useless as criticism goes.

[Emmz]

Reasonable cost? I'd be pissed if the Sox traded away their #2 prospect for someone like Matt Capps.

 

Agree. I think we could have got a lot more for Ramos than we did.

[ORS]

I never specified Capps as Sox need. I'm not specifying any particular player. The only points that I'm making is that lots of teams made moves to improve and plug holes. We did nothing. The explanation in past years has been that the price was too high and we didn't want to sacrifice the future. I haven't heard that explanation as much this year-- probably because it is not true. It's not reasonable to believe that all of the other teams that made moves were willing to sacrifice their futures. Lots of teams made lots of moves this year. We made none. Those are facts. The real reasons for staying pat are are unknown to us. IMO' date=' this was a miscalculation. Even this limping crippled team had a playoff shot, and once in the playoffs with Lester and Buchholz (and god forbid Lackey and Beckett start pitching like Lackey and beckett) and Papelbon and Bard, they could have been a very dangerous team. [b']By standing pat, they folded their tent on this season[/b].

I disagree. Standing pat is standing pat, not folding the tent. They had some attractive pieces that could have helped other contenders and brought in future talent for the Sox (Beltre), and this would have occurred if they folded the tent. And, while they didn't fold, they didn't go all in either. Given the cards they were holding at the deadline, that doesn't look like an unreasonable way to play it.

 

I've said it before, but I think it bears stating again, and I'd like to hear your thoughts on the matter, I don't think the current team is one you go all-in with in the trade market. They aren't one piece away from becomming strong favorites, or even viable contenders, IMO. Sure, you've thrown out some cliche remarks about how one addition can turn a team around, but nothing specific. Do you really think this team gets over the hump with one more RP or an OF? Do you give up on the future of someone like Ryan Kalish for a Matt Capps, or someone like him, to improve the chances of this team with its current underperformance and amount of players who will finish the season with bandages on?

[a700hitter]

Yes we know -- and that's part of the problem. If you were specific' date=' it'd be easier to make a counterpoint based on the price the market has set on a leverage reliever. As it is, without being any more specific than you were, all we have is a "They Should Have Done Something." Fairly useless as criticism goes.[/quote']I was specific enough to note that we needed a backup catcher, a right-handed outfielder and a bullpen arm. All of those types of players got moved around the deadline. Is that specific enough for you?

[Dojji]

Nope. Let's see some names. Shopping lists are all well and good, but criticizing a guy or failing to meet your particular list is foolish if you haven't at least taken the time to make sure what you are proposing was actually possible this year (as opposed to "generally possible in an average year" which is as far as you've gone)

[a700hitter]

Nope. Let's see some names. Shopping lists are all well and good' date=' but criticizing a guy or failing to meet your particular list is foolish if you haven't at least taken the time to make sure what you are proposing was actually possible this year (as opposed to "generally possible in an average year" which is as far as you've gone)[/quote']Take your pick of the players that moved-- those were obviously in play. If a player didn't move, we don't know if they were in play... do we? OFer's moved, relievers and catchers. There were players in each of those categories that moved that could have helped us.

[Dojji]

Which righthanded outfielders even moved this deadline? For the life of me I can't recall even one. Every OF I can think of that moved this deadline was LEFThanded.

 

As for relievers, the surest way to waste talent is to trade it for relievers at the deadline. The Wanger trade is a better model for what we want to accomplish than the Gagne trade, and I think Theo realizes that -- and that there weren't really any Wagners to be had this year.

[a700hitter]

Which righthanded outfielders even moved this deadline? For the life of me I can't recall even one. Every OF I can think of that moved this deadline was LEFThanded.

Austin Kearns

[Dojji]

Oh yeah, sorry, I thought the idea was to IMPROVE the team.

 

Kearns is not a better investment of roster space than Nava or McD, much less worth sending talent anywhere. Heck, McD is hitting at about Kearns' career level at the moment, and plays center with Kearns can't even fake. When Kearns doesn't even depresent a definite upgrade over a guy like D McD how angsty should we be over failing to acquire the guy?

 

I suppose we could have gone after Jose Guillen too.

[ORS]

Austin Kearns

The Yankees sent them Zach McAllister, who's probably comparable, in terms of performance, to Felix Doubront. Do you give up the potential future of Doubront to add a platoon OF to this team (again, with all the underperformance and injury to date)?

 

2/3 of your moves would have cost Ryan Kalish and Felix Doubront in order to add Matt Capps and Austin Kearns to the current, crippled roster (neither of these mitigate the impact of losing their best two hitters, nor do they help overcome the ineffectiveness of Beckett/Lackey).

[italstallianion]

I love making moves that make the team better, but if it doesn't get the team to the playoffs, then it's just a waste of prospects, money, and it worsens the team draft position (not like it's a huge deal, but worth mentioning nonetheless).

[Dipre]

I wouldn't trade Kalish for Kearns and Capps combined, specially given the fact that Kearns has comparable numbers to both McDonald and Hall across the board, meaning he doesn't actually represent an upgrade.

 

Kearns: .787 OPS

McDonald: .781 OPS

Hall: .779 OPS

 

Q: Do i trade a guy who's likely going to be manning an OF spot for several years at the league minimum for a reliever who may or may not be effective under a new role in a new team (See: Gagne,Eric) and an OF who has similar numbers than two guys i already have?

 

A) I don't.

[Dojji]

Of your three issues:

 

Catcher: We acquired Saltalamacchia. Whether you agree or not, Theo believes in this guy and he will be breaking camp with the Sox next spring unless something goes wrong.

 

Outfield: Righthanded outfielders aren't as easy to find as you'd think, the outfield is the domain of the LHH/LHT because these guys aren't allowed to play infield. And the guys we have right now (McDonald and the switch-hitting Nava) are getting the job done about as well as most of the guys you could bring in to replace them.

 

RP: Frankly the team isn't close enough to a playoff spot to go nuts loading up the bullpen at this time.

 

See this is the problem with a general shopping list and the reason I'm pushing you into being specific. It's reall easy for a nonspecific list to be divorced from reality. I mean, why stop at a RHH OF, setup-caliber RP and a catcher? I'd like a 60-HR GG RHH 1B, a consistent .420 OBP leadoff bat and a pitcher with Bob Feller's velocity and Greg Maddux's command. And as long as I don't have to identify exactly how the team is supposed to fill my demands, I can sit there all day holding them "responsible" for failing to meet them, knowing full well that if I *had* to get specific the whole thing would become ridiculous in a real hurry.

[a700hitter]

I disagree. Standing pat is standing pat, not folding the tent. They had some attractive pieces that could have helped other contenders and brought in future talent for the Sox (Beltre), and this would have occurred if they folded the tent. And, while they didn't fold, they didn't go all in either. Given the cards they were holding at the deadline, that doesn't look like an unreasonable way to play it.

 

I've said it before, but I think it bears stating again, and I'd like to hear your thoughts on the matter, I don't think the current team is one you go all-in with in the trade market. They aren't one piece away from becomming strong favorites, or even viable contenders, IMO. Sure, you've thrown out some cliche remarks about how one addition can turn a team around, but nothing specific. Do you really think this team gets over the hump with one more RP or an OF? Do you give up on the future of someone like Ryan Kalish for a Matt Capps, or someone like him, to improve the chances of this team with its current underperformance and amount of players who will finish the season with bandages on?

I didn't expect them to make a big splashy bold move or trade, but I do believe a little fine tuning was needed and could have been done. I'm not going to get specific as to guys I think might have been available, because that would just be baseless speculation. There were a few catchers that have been moved. We desperately needed a catcher that could hit a little once Varitek went down. Using Cash as a primary catcher for a couple of weeks put a tremendous blackhole in an already weakened lineup. I do believe that a backup catcher and one bullpen arm might have made a difference. We could still make this race close, so this team was not a lost cause despite the fact that everything that could go wrong went wrong. I've stated my belief before about one or two pieces changing the dynamic of a game or a team. I'm not looking to change any one else's mind. It's just my opinion. Maybe the term "throw in the towel" is not correct, but they did stand pat. We both agree on that.

[a700hitter]

RP: Frankly the team isn't close enough to a playoff spot to go nuts loading up the bullpen at this time.

I wasn't looking for them to go nuts, but they did nothing. The Twins, Rays, Yankees, White Sox, Rangers, Phillies, and Braves all made moves to improve their team

 

I mean' date=' why stop at a RHH OF, setup-caliber RP and a catcher? I'd like a 60-HR GG RHH 1B, a consistent .420 OBP leadoff bat and a pitcher with Bob Feller's velocity and Greg Maddux's command. And as long as I don't have to identify exactly how the team is supposed to fill my demands, I can sit there all day holding them "responsible" for failing to meet them, knowing full well that if I *had* to get specific the whole thing would become ridiculous in a real hurry.[/quote']I didn't know that a bullpen pitchers and backup catchers are endangered species or on par with Bob Feller or Gregg Maddux. Who's being ridiculous? The Mets have a lot of backup type catchers in their system, and they just moved Barrajas to the Dodgers. I don't think he is going to have a .420 OBP or have Bob Feller's velocity, but he will provide a lot more offense than Kevin Cash.

[Dojji]

Who's being ridiculous?

 

Both of us. The difference is, I know that.

[a700hitter]

Both of us. The difference is' date=' I know that.[/quote']Yes, hoping for a back up catcher and a bullpen arms is silly. What was I thinking?:dunno:

[ORS]

Kevin Cash is horrible, but he also only plays like every 5th game. The upgrade from Cash to a schmoe like Barajas is minimal when it's only impact is once every 5th game. You are probably talking about something along the lines of less than a half a win over a full season, much less just the last two months. This is not the type of thing that makes up the 5 games they currently trail by.

 

Five wins is the difference from Joe Mauer to Yadier Molina last year, over the whole year, at the cather position.

[a700hitter]

Kevin Cash is horrible, but he also only plays like every 5th game. The upgrade from Cash to a schmoe like Barajas is minimal when it's only impact is once every 5th game. You are probably talking about something along the lines of less than a half a win over a full season, much less just the last two months. This is not the type of thing that makes up the 5 games they currently trail by.

 

Five wins is the difference from Joe Mauer to Yadier Molina last year, over the whole year, at the cather position.

Cash had a big impact playing every day for 10 days or 2 weeks that seemed like a year when VMart and Tek were both down.

[ORS]

Cash had a big impact playing every day for 10 days or 2 weeks that seemed like a year when VMart and Tek were both down.

I get that, but your agony doesn't make the impact more than it really was. The stats are pretty clear. Mauer to Molina is 5 wins over a whole season. "Backup Schmoe X" to Cash isn't going to be a greater difference than that, and even if it was, over two weeks you are talking about less than 1/2 a win.

[Dojji]

Kevin Cash is horrible, but he also only plays like every 5th game. The upgrade from Cash to a schmoe like Barajas is minimal when it's only impact is once every 5th game. You are probably talking about something along the lines of less than a half a win over a full season, much less just the last two months. This is not the type of thing that makes up the 5 games they currently trail by.

 

Five wins is the difference from Joe Mauer to Yadier Molina last year, over the whole year, at the cather position.

 

Not the best example -- Mauer might be a franchise slugger, but Molina still holds a great deal of value on his own, especially on the defensive end. He's a big part of the reason the Cardinal pitching staff consistently grades out above its talent level.

 

Mauer is ridiculously valuable, sure, but Molina can certainly carry his weight and is an elite defender, so if you were looking for an average catcher you missed by a bit IMHO. An average catcher is more Yorvit Torrealba.

[ORS]

Not the best example -- Mauer might be a franchise slugger, but Molina still holds a great deal of value on his own, especially on the defensive end. He's a big part of the reason the Cardinal pitching staff consistently grades out above its talent level.

 

Mauer is ridiculously valuable, sure, but Molina can certainly carry his weight and is an elite defender, so if you were looking for an average catcher you missed by a bit IMHO.

Irrelevant, particularly since it is your opinion, humble or not, because 5 wins is 5 wins, which is the deficit we are looking at right now. That I looked for the guy on the list who was 5 wins away from the best is not a coincidence. I used the game's best to have players with whose play everyone is familiar.

[Dojji]

Yes' date=' hoping for a back up catcher and a bullpen arms is silly. What was I thinking?:dunno:[/quote']

 

And you're still being ridiculous. You keep demanding and holding Theo "accountable" for not acquiring pieces that fit your generic shopping list, and yet, called on to provide specifics, you first prevaricate and then come up with options that are no better than what they'd be replacing, thus demonstrating you've given the question of exactly who Theo should have acquired very little thought indeed.

[Dojji]

Irrelevant' date=' particularly since it is your opinion, humble or not, because 5 wins is 5 wins, which is the deficit we are looking at right now. That I looked for the guy on the list who was 5 wins away from the best is not a coincidence. I used the game's best to have players with whose play every is familiar.[/quote']

 

But if you're using Molina as a floor rather than V-Mart, it's still a terrible comparison because it's not a statement on what relative value we would have obtained even should we have actually acquired Mauer, which I don't think was even feasible.

 

And if you had no attention of acquiring Mauer, it's even worse -- it's just throwing two random data points out and drawing a connecting line between them with no relevance to Boston. I just don't see the point of it unless there's some connection back to the Sox -- which there really isn't here.

[a700hitter]

Cash had a big impact playing every day for 10 days or 2 weeks that seemed like a year when VMart and Tek were both down.

We were without VMart and Tek for 22 game when Cash was the primary catcher. I think it cost us. If it was even a game that could make the difference in the end. Maybe a bullpen arm picks up another game.

[Dojji]

Cash played a total of 21 games for Boston including several behind a healthy V-Mart. To call him the primary catcher at any point this year is silly.

[ORS]

But if you're using Molina as a floor rather than V-Mart, it's still a terrible comparison because it's not a statement on what relative value we would have obtained even should we have actually acquired Mauer, which I don't think was even feasible.

 

And if you had no attention of acquiring Mauer, it's even worse -- it's just throwing two random data points out and drawing a connecting line between them with no relevance to Boston. I just don't see the point of it unless there's some connection back to the Sox -- which there really isn't here.

Where do you get acquiring Mauer out of that? I'm using him to show the magnitude of difference from one catcher to the next, so it isn't random. Get it?

 

You are way off here.