Should Kalish make the team next year?

[a700hitter]

This is your MO every year

I like good players. I don't care where they come from, but there is no crop to anticipate from this farm system... not yet. Maybe some prospects will emerge in a year or two, e.g. Rizzo.

[Spudboy]

He was definitely a highly anticipated prospect while in the minors. In my original post, I was talking about non-pitching prospects. We have no position players in the minors that are creating any buzz.. none. There was buzz about Pedroia. Even Youk had some buzz, because he had some consecutive game streak for reaching base. There was certainly buzz about Ellsbury. We've got nothing now. It will be interesting to see where our minor league organization gets ranked.

 

Spud and I remember when Dick O'Connell had all sorts of studs coming up from the minors in the late 60's and 70's. Year after year big talent came to the bigs: Carlton Fisk, Dwight Evans, Cecil Cooper, Bill Lee, Ben Oglivie, Juan Beniquez, Rogelio Moret, Rick Burleson, Jim Rice and Fred Lynn just to mention a few. Before them Reggie Smith, George Scott, Petrocelli, Conigliaro, and Lonborg. O'Connell was not the GM when the earlier group was signed, but he was instrumental in getting those guys, and it was because of his nose for talent that he was given the job in 1965. This was before the internet, ESPN and 24/7 sports coverage, and there was major buzz about many of these guys, especially Fisk, Evans, Lynn and Rice. I was hearing about those guys and I lived in NY.

 

Be still my heart. Back then one had to work to follow the game. A subscription to The Sporting News and purchase of their baseball guides was necessary.

[Dipre]

I like good players. I don't care where they come from' date=' but there is no crop to anticipate from this farm system... not yet. Maybe some prospects will emerge in a year or two, e.g. Rizzo.[/quote']

 

Jose Iglesias, Kolbrin Vitek, Ryan Lavarnway, Reymond Fuentes, Sean Coyle, Garin Cecchini, Brice Brentz, David Renfroe.

 

All guys with enormous potential who are very very young (with the exception of Lavarnway, who's offensive upside is not in question, but his ability to catch is.)

 

This is what it means when someone says "bottom-heavy" since most of these kids are in the 19-20 year range, and they won't start creating real ripples until they're much higher in the system. But you need to "do your homework" (which doesn't equate to buying magazines) to find out who they are, check out their ceilings and their ETAs.

[ORS]

Where exactly do I go to read the buzz meter?

 

Anyway, to suggest there are "no...none" position prospects to get excited about is ridiculous. For all the "buzz" that is being misremembered about Pedroia and Youk, there were plenty of questions too, could Pedroia's lack of physical ability hold him back as a big leaguer, would Youk ever hit for enough power to play a big league corner position, etc.

 

There is similar buzz with some questions about the likes of Rizzo, Lavarnway, Anderson, Iglesias, Tejeda, and Middlebrooks. And the player who this thread is about, Kalish, started looking like he would be a better player than Jacoby Ellsbury, at least he performed better in the minors at the higher levels at a younger age.

 

Too much hand wringing over something as arbitrary as "buzz".

[a700hitter]

Jose Iglesias, Kolbrin Vitek, Ryan Lavarnway, Reymond Fuentes, Sean Coyle, Garin Cecchini, Brice Brentz, David Renfroe.

 

All guys with enormous potential who are very very young (with the exception of Lavarnway, who's offensive upside is not in question, but his ability to catch is.)

 

This is what it means when someone says "bottom-heavy" since most of these kids are in the 19-20 year range, and they won't start creating real ripples until they're much higher in the system. But you need to "do your homework" (which doesn't equate to buying magazines) to find out who they are, check out their ceilings and their ETAs.

All of them are years away. My point was that we will not have impact position players hitting Fenway in 2011 and 2012. If the FO wants to improve the 2011 and 2012 teams, it will have to come from outside the organization. None of these guys will make an impact at Fenway before you are done with your Masters Degree. Iglesias might be the starting SS in 2012, but his bat has not created any buzz-- at least not yet.

[a700hitter]

Be still my heart. Back then one had to work to follow the game. A subscription to The Sporting News and purchase of their baseball guides was necessary.

You know what I am talking about. In the late 60's and early to mid-70's we had phenomenal talents hitting the Bigs almost every season. Rice and Lynn taking the league by storm in 1975 was unprecedented before or since. When O'Connell left, we never saw that kind of talent infusion from within the organization ever again.

[Dipre]

Lavarnway and Iglesias may both find themselves at Fenway come 2012. And what is this about Iglesias' bat "not making any buzz"? He's never going to create any buzz with his bat when scouts are drooling all over his glove, and he's obviously not going to be a power guy. Besides, how many guys does this team really need to graduate come 2012, i ask?

[a700hitter]

Lavarnway and Iglesias may both find themselves at Fenway come 2012. And what is this about Iglesias' bat "not making any buzz"? He's never going to create any buzz with his bat when scouts are drooling all over his glove' date=' and he's obviously not going to be a power guy. Besides, how many guys does this team really need to graduate come 2012, i ask?[/quote']I don't think Lavarnway will be starting for the Sox in 2012. Iglesias is not going to be an impact player at SS like Hanley Ramirez. He's a slick fielder, not something that creates a lot of fan interest. Unless I am remembering incorrectly, he was not the starting SS on the Cuban team. I thought he played 2B for them.

[Spudboy]

I've seen some of the A, AA players play.

 

But pardon me for just watching the gamzz...

[a700hitter]

I've seen some of the A, AA players play.

 

But pardon me for just watching the gamzz...

What can you tell from watching the gamzz?

[Spudboy]

What can you tell from watching the gamzz?

 

Nothing that can't be usurped by someone that can right click, apparently.

[Dipre]

I don't think Lavarnway will be starting for the Sox in 2012. Iglesias is not going to be an impact player at SS like Hanley Ramirez. He's a slick fielder' date=' not something that creates a lot of fan interest. Unless I am remembering incorrectly, he was not the starting SS on the Cuban team. I thought he played 2B for them.[/quote']

 

Iglesias needs to do two things: Get on base and flash the glove. Fan interest is inconsequential, unlike production, which none of us can predict which level he will end up bringing to the table.

 

Lavarnway's bat is real, and my right-clicking abilities (which i think are better than watching a kid two or three times) tell me that if his D gets to the point where it's passable at C, he's gonna see time in '12.

 

Anyways, the point of it is that "buzz" is not something you can quantify, but the way the system is set up a couple of kids should break out as soon as '12, and more should be graduating around '13 and '14.

 

As ORS said, there are questions with every prospect, but when you're talking about a kid with as much raw talent as Kolbrin Vitek, then you don't need "buzz" to know that there's potential a ton of potential impact players that could start reaching the Majors in '12-'13.

[a700hitter]

Iglesias needs to do two things: Get on base and flash the glove. Fan interest is inconsequential, unlike production, which none of us can predict which level he will end up bringing to the table.

 

Lavarnway's bat is real, and my right-clicking abilities (which i think are better than watching a kid two or three times) tell me that if his D gets to the point where it's passable at C, he's gonna see time in '12.

 

Anyways, the point of it is that "buzz" is not something you can quantify, but the way the system is set up a couple of kids should break out as soon as '12, and more should be graduating around '13 and '14.

 

As ORS said, there are questions with every prospect, but when you're talking about a kid with as much raw talent as Kolbrin Vitek, then you don't need "buzz" to know that there's potential a ton of potential impact players that could start reaching the Majors in '12-'13.

You and ORS are arguing the meaning of an expression, but you are both missing the point. The point of my argument isn't "buzz." I'm looking at the rosters and reading the reports, and IMO, no one is going to make any impact for the Sox before 2013. If all we have to look forward to in 2012 is Lavarnway as a backup and Iglesias as a light-hitting SS, then it is pretty obvious that the FO will have to go outside the organization if it wants to improve in 2011 and 2012. That's the point that i am making.

[Dipre]

You and ORS are arguing the meaning of an expression' date=' but you are both missing the point. The point of my argument isn't "buzz." I'm looking at the rosters and reading the reports, and IMO, no one is going to make any impact for the Sox before 2013. If all we have to look forward to in 2012 is Lavarnway as a backup and Iglesias as a light-hitting SS, then it is pretty obvious that the FO will have to go outside the organization if it wants to improve in 2011 and 2012. That's the point that i am making.[/quote']

 

But improve on what?

 

Let's go through a likely scenario:

 

This offseason they sign Werth/Crawford and let Beltre/Martinez go, get a stopgap to replace either one of those.

 

Now you now Theo's blowing his load for Gonzales or Fielder. He signs one of them to a big contract before '12. This is common knowledge. In this case, the only thing you need is an OF, who may very well end up being Kalish (when Drew moves on) and a SS (who will be Iglesias).

 

Realistically, the most that could actually happen due to actual Red Sox needs is filling an OF spot, 1B and C through the system. You're asking for the FO to do what they're going to be doing anyway and referring to a "buzz" from prospects that, given contractual situations and actual FO targets, will probably not be actually needed in 2012. That's why we're arguing the "meaning" of the word, because it otherwise doesn't make sense. You're telling the FO to simply stick to what it always does, sign their FA target but promote the kids who are ready to contribute.

[a700hitter]

But improve on what?

 

Let's go through a likely scenario:

 

This offseason they sign Werth/Crawford and let Beltre/Martinez go, get a stopgap to replace either one of those.

 

Now you now Theo's blowing his load for Gonzales or Fielder. He signs one of them to a big contract before '12. This is common knowledge. In this case, the only thing you need is an OF, who may very well end up being Kalish (when Drew moves on) and a SS (who will be Iglesias).

 

Realistically, the most that could actually happen due to actual Red Sox needs is filling an OF spot, 1B and C through the system. You're asking for the FO to do what they're going to be doing anyway and referring to a "buzz" from prospects that, given contractual situations and actual FO targets, will probably not be actually needed in 2012. That's why we're arguing the "meaning" of the word, because it otherwise doesn't make sense. You're telling the FO to simply stick to what it always does, sign their FA target but promote the kids who are ready to contribute.

I'm not telling the FO to do anything. I am just noting that our farm system will bear no fruit over the next couple of years. When I talk about improving, I am talking about improving over last year's team. I am not saying that they will not make the necessary moves. I expect that they will do what it takes to get it done. I am just observing that it will not come from within the organization. You don't seem to disagree, so what is it that you are debating?

 

As for the continuing reference that you are making to the term "buzz", you should note that in my initial post on this topic today that I did not use the term at all. I only used the term in subsequent posts after there was little reaction to my initial post. I figured that the term would create plenty of "buzz" in the thread. I think it did.

[BSN07]

You and ORS are arguing the meaning of an expression' date=' but you are both missing the point. The point of my argument isn't "buzz." I'm looking at the rosters and reading the reports, and IMO, no one is going to make any impact for the Sox before 2013. If all we have to look forward to in 2012 is Lavarnway as a backup and Iglesias as a light-hitting SS, then it is pretty obvious that the FO will have to go outside the organization if it wants to improve in 2011 and 2012. That's the point that i am making.[/quote']

 

So your suggesting no single prospect will come up and have an "impact" on the Red Sox before 2013?

 

Listen just say you hate waiting for prospects and would rather fill the position with expensive veterans with names you recognize. It would save a lot of arguing

[a700hitter]

So your suggesting no single prospect will come up and have an "impact" on the Red Sox before 2013?

 

Listen just say you hate waiting for prospects and would rather fill the position with expensive veterans with names you recognize. It would save a lot of arguing

I don't care where they get the players. They just are not going to have any impact guys coming up from the farm before 2013 at the earliest. People say that the organization is bottom heavy

Because we don't have any MLB ready blue chip prospects. It's going to be interesting to see where the minor league organization gets ranked. Maybe there is enough depth of good young arms to overome the lack of developed position players.

[Dipre]

Kalish, Lavarnway, Rizzo, Iglesias. Four "still in the system" guys who are more likely than not contribute to the ML club between now and '12. If that's not a system "bearing fruit" then i don't know what it is.

[a700hitter]

Kalish' date=' Lavarnway, Rizzo, Iglesias. Four "still in the system" guys who are more likely than not contribute to the ML club between now and '12. If that's not a system "bearing fruit" then i don't know what it is.[/quote']I'm not saying that no one from the system will make the big club. I am sure that a number of them will get playing time, but getting playing time is a far cry from being a starter and having a big impact like Lynn, Rice, Nomar, Vaughn, Pedroia and Ellsbury. Lavarnway is likely to be nothing more than a backup by 2012 if he even progresses that fast. Glove guys like Iglesias are almost never big impact guys when they first hit the majors. He could be a surprise, but no one expects much offense from him. Rizzo could make it big, but will the Sox think he is ready to handle a power offense position like first base as a starter in 2012? He'll have to tear things up in the minors for them to clear a spot for him in 2012. The only possibility that I see of a minor league guy holding down a starting job and producing is Kalish, especially if he gets a couple of hundred ABs as the 4th or 5th OF in 2011. I don't think the farm is going to produce much depth or production for the Sox in the next couple of seasons. The names and arguments that I am hearing are far from compelling.

[Keeper]

Kalish could be MLB-ready right now. Guys has a lot of tools. From what I saw in the Rising Stars AFL game, Lavarnway sees the ball real well against lefties and has an advanced approach. But he was kind of a disaster behind the plate. Good arm, though. Still has a ways to go there. Iglesias looked smooth in the field and relaxed at the plate. I like his stance, actually. Needs to learn how to drive the ball more.

[jacksonianmarch]

I think what a700 means is that right now, none of the sox prospects look like they could contribute on a regular basis in 2011. I agree with that. I think Kalish could be a very good player, but I am pessimistic that he can do it in 2011.

[a700hitter]

I think what a700 means is that right now' date=' none of the sox prospects look like they could contribute on a regular basis in 2011. I agree with that. I think Kalish could be a very good player, but I am pessimistic that he can do it in 2011.[/quote']I can't see anyone contributing in 2012 either, except maybe Kalish.

[jacksonianmarch]

I think Kalish showed flashes of being a good player. He just isnt ready and should spend the majority of 2011 in the minors, IMO. I think a lot of the sox big time talent is going to start showing in the lower long season levels this season. Their last 2 drafts brought in a massive amount of talent. But the poaching of their prospects by trade and by callup has left the upper levels a little dry. Aside from Kalish, all of the sox prospects AA and up have their warts and aside from Rizzo (who I think has potential to be a starter, but some flaws that could stall his game), I am unsure if any of them will be solid contributors on as a starter for the sox. Some of their guys could be starters on other clubs, but in the AL East, they would not cut it.

[Dipre]

I think Kalish showed flashes of being a good player. He just isnt ready and should spend the majority of 2011 in the minors' date=' IMO. I think a lot of the sox big time talent is going to start showing in the lower long season levels this season. Their last 2 drafts brought in a massive amount of talent. But the poaching of their prospects by trade and by callup has left the upper levels a little dry. Aside from Kalish, all of the sox prospects AA and up have their warts and aside from Rizzo (who I think has potential to be a starter, but some flaws that could stall his game), I am unsure if any of them will be solid contributors on as a starter for the sox. Some of their guys could be starters on other clubs, but in the AL East, they would not cut it.[/quote']

 

Too bad none of that "big time talent" is generating any buzz.

 

Also, both Kalish and Iglesias are virtually a guarantee to have a spot on the 2012 roster unless they really suck it up in 2011.

[Rdsxmbnt]

sorry a700 but there are like maybe 10 players in the entire minor leagues that fit the description you're talking about.

 

If Kalish/Iglesias/Rizzo isn't something you can get excited about then Idk what to tell you. Not every team has someone like Montero. Not to mention the Red Sox have produced elite hitters (Pedroia, Youkillis) who don't have flashy tools but are all-star players. I think Lowrie has that potential too as well as the three guys I mentioned.

[a700hitter]

Too bad none of that "big time talent" is generating any buzz.

 

Also, both Kalish and Iglesias are virtually a guarantee to have a spot on the 2012 roster unless they really suck it up in 2011.

Getting a spot? The point is that none of our prospects will have an impact to improve the team in the next couple of years. You are really stuck on the whole "buzz" thing. So predictable.

[a700hitter]

sorry a700 but there are like maybe 10 players in the entire minor leagues that fit the description you're talking about.

and you agree with me that none of them are in the Sox organization. It will be interesting to see where our minor league system gets ranked.

[Rdsxmbnt]

and you agree with me that none of them are in the Sox organization. It will be interesting to see where our minor league system gets ranked.

 

I agree there is no definitive blue-chip hitter in the system (Westmoreland is too much of a wild card right now). But out of the group Iglesias/Lowrie/Rizzo/Kalish I think at least one can have an 'all-star' type player impact.

[a700hitter]

I agree there is no definitive blue-chip hitter in the system (Westmoreland is too much of a wild card right now). But out of the group Iglesias/Lowrie/Rizzo/Kalish I think at least one can have an 'all-star' type player impact.

But not before 2013.

[example1]

Getting a spot? The point is that none of our prospects will have an impact to improve the team in the next couple of years. You are really stuck on the whole "buzz" thing. So predictable.

 

That they have a spot waiting for them on a team like the Red Sox should be "buzz" enough for anyone who is interested.

 

I would push farther and say one of them (Kalish) should have a starting spot in RF in 2012 (with Werth or Crawford in LF, Ellsbury in CF) and one of them might be sitting behind Lowrie for a year, if Jed is still around. If he isn't, then 2012 seems reasonable for Iglesias to arrive.

 

I think too many people underestimate the potential value of a true vacuum at SS. He could produce multiple high WAR seasons with his glove alone.

 

Think about how many great athletes are drafted as shortstops and are questioned about their ability to stick at short. Iglesias not only doesn't get questions about his ability to stay at short, most say he could play there now without difficulty at the age of 20. His was the biggest signing bonus this team has ever paid. People come to watch him take fielding practice. I think he is generating significant interest as a player and represents a good young chip who could make an impact.

 

I would add Josh Reddick and Lars Anderson to the list of potential quality big league players who could contribute over the next two seasons. No need to remind me that both have struggled in limited opportunities or underachieved overall. No dispute here, but when Reddick gets hot he's got a lot of pop, and Anderson clearly has the tools they just haven't come together for him yet.

 

I would also note that Felix Doubront and Jed Lowrie are developing players who the Red Sox will be giving important roles in 2011 and who have shown reasons for that increased responsibility.

 

There are plenty of interesting, talented young players coming through the system.