Possible Lowell suitor

[a700hitter]

Surely they've made something from the Japanese market. What that figure might be I can't begin to predict, but I'm sure it's something.

 

As for Papelbon..... no, thank you. If Papelbon ever signs with the Yanks I will be very, very disappointed,

Yes, they made something, but not $52 million. I was talking about a profit. What they have so far for their investment is a huge loss.

[JimEdHOF2009]

Jeff Bagwell says hi

 

uninformed reply..typical from a Yankee fan. At the time the Red Sox were fighting for a pennant. They needed a quality reliever. They got one. Larry Anderson was an elite reliever and the Sox were a World Series contender...one piece away.. These are the deals that are acceptable. In the 700 minor league AB's that precluded the trade(good sample), Bagwell had a grand total of 6 HR's.

 

Hey, who knew he was going to JUICE-UP and become a 40 HR guy? In retrospect...bad deal.. At the time...acceptable. Kelley for Napoli is not acceptable now or EVER.

[jacksonianmarch]

You said that it would be the worst prospect for player trade of all time. I am just reminding you that worse ones are around and have resulted. Whether Bagwell did roids or not, the sox dealt a future HOFer for a reliever. At the time, it was needed, but on the whole it was one of the worst deals of all time

[Spudboy]

Maybe the Sox should convert Daniel Nava to Catcher.

[Dojji]

1) Napoli's not an elite power hitting catcher. He's also not in V-Mart's league offensively' date=' and saying otherwise is downright ridiculous.[/quote']

 

No, you're right, I'm sorry, the fact that V-mart's last 3 offensive seasons are significantly inferior in every category to Napoli's gives the lie to my statement.

 

By any standard of comparison with fellow catchers, Napoli's HR/PA is impressive if not elite. By any standard at all. Napoli's IsoP is in elite company. Mauer is the only catcher in the league I'd consider indisputably superior to Napoli as an offensive catcher, and if you want to disagree with that, feel free to bring numbers and not blanket statements and insults.

 

2) Napoli's awful defensively, to the point where a cacher who can barely touch a .700 OPS has him relegated to near-bench duty.

 

Mike Napoli caught the majority of the Angels' games last year (96) despite missing part of the year with an injury. And he hit 20 HR's, I might add.

 

Also he's got a better arm than either of our catchers, although that's not saying a great deal. I concede the D on the whole but maintain he's less "terrible" and more "Posada-bad," and like Posada he's got the bat to make up for it.

 

3) Stop over-hyping players you like and stick to facts. Napoli is what he is, an offense-first catcher with above average power. Saying the Angels would demand more than V-Mart for Napoli borders on the ridiculous.

 

You are wrong. By the last 3 season numbers, by a comparison of relative contracts, by any reasonable standard of value, Mike Napoli is worth objectively more than Victor Martinez to a team at this time.

 

Feel free to lash out with another post long on insult and short on substance if you'd like, the fact is that, for perhaps a historic first, the numbers are on *my* side this time.

[Dojji]

BTW -- as pertains to Mike Napoli's elite power or lack thereof.

 

Is it agreed that Adam Dunn has elite power?

 

How about Carlos Pena? Elite power?

 

because Napoli isn't far short of those two.

 

ISO:

 

Dunn: .271

Pena: .251

Cust (2008-2009) .247

Napoli: .238

 

(per Fangraphs)

 

I'd call that close enough to be in the same neighborhood as Pena, if not Dunn. Certainly his career rates mark him as a similar kind of hitter (Lots of HR's, low AVG, middling OBP). His career ISO rate is actually in the same viciinity as some of Jack Cust's better seasons as well. This is a guy who can kill the baseball. If the Angels are any kind of smart they will guard him jealously.

[Dipre]

No, you're right, I'm sorry, the fact that V-mart's last 3 offensive seasons are significantly inferior in every category to Napoli's gives the lie to my statement.

 

By any standard of comparison with fellow catchers, Napoli's HR/PA is impressive if not elite. Mauer is the only catcher in the league I'd consider indisputably superior to Napoli as an offensive catcher, and if you want to disagree with that, feel free to bring numbers and not blanket statements and insults.

 

Napoli's games played last three seasons: 233, .879 OPS, 128 OPS+

 

V-Mart's games played last three seasons: 375, .838 OPS, 121 OPS+.

 

Martinez has played 142 games more than Napoli. Napoli has been more of a part-time player, and over more significant sample sizes, offensive performances tend to even out with hitter tendencies and weaknesses becoming more exposed. I don't need to explain this to you, but as usual, when you're "Doiji'd" with a player logic eludes you, and no amount of numbers or logical arguments will be enough to counteract the blatant bias.

 

Feel free to use logic and not dodge particular subjects (Sample sizes anyone?) (Role-player vs full time regular anyone?) (Decline in offensive performances as the year goes on due to the rigors of catching FULL TIME) when making an assesment of a player. Martinez is clearly a better hitter and player than Napoli, who is a role player.

 

 

Mike Napoli caught the majority of the Angels' games last year (96) despite missing part of the year with an injury. And he hit 20 HR's, I might add.

 

Also he's got a better arm than either of our catchers, although that's not saying a great deal. I concede the D on the whole but maintain he's less "terrible" and more "Posada-bad," and he's got the bat to make up for it.

 

You could at least get your facts straight. Napoli caught 87 games last year, and as a catcher, he had an .817 OPS. Napoli has never had to deal with the rigors of being a regular catcher, and that's a very real issue, whether you'd like to admit it or not. Mike Scioscia knowsmore about baseball than either of us, and he doesn't use Napoli as his main catcher, because both his D are awful, and because he (and possibly the rest of the league) see him as more as a part time player.

 

If he were to put up an entire season of above-average hitting from the C position, then you could make an argument about his offensive potential, but as usual, you're making an argument out of thin air and spouting it as fact. You can't project a catcher's offensive prowess (if he's a regular catcher) over a full season as if he were any other regular player because of the rigors associated with catching. And seeing as Napoli has never played a full season in the Major Leagues (114 games is his top mark), it's impossible to compare his worth to a full-time player such as Victor Martinez. Then again, i shouldn't have to tell you this, but for some reason, i am forced to.

 

You are wrong. By the last 3 season numbers, by a comparison of relative contracts, by any reasonable standard of value, Mike Napoli is worth objectively more than Victor Martinez to a team at this time.

 

Objectivity escapes you. You like Napoli (like so many other players before him) so you completely ignore obvious flaws or problems with his skillset in order to prove a point that isn't there. Napoli is not worth more to this team than Martinez because he is not a regular catcher, and would perpetuate a problem we already have. The objective answer (as in, the answer given by someone who doesn't have a hard-on for a player and is not fed by bias) is to get a better defensive catcher who is proven to be able to handle the rigors of catching full time.

[Dipre]

BTW -- as pertains to Mike Napoli's elite power or lack thereof.

 

Is it agreed that Adam Dunn has elite power?

 

How about Carlos Pena? Elite power?

 

because Napoli isn't far short of those two.

 

ISO:

 

Dunn: .271

Pena: .251

Cust (2008-2009) .247

Napoli: .238

 

(per Fangraphs)

 

I'd call that close enough to be in the same neighborhood as Pena, if not Dunn. Certainly his career rates mark him as a similar kind of hitter (Lots of HR's, low AVG, middling OBP). His career ISO rate is actually in the same viciinity as some of Jack Cust's better seasons as well. This is a guy who can kill the baseball. If the Angels are any kind of smart they will guard him jealously.

 

Sample sizes: Use them.

 

And LOL@YOU thinking you can evaluate a player better than a ML ballclub.

[jacksonianmarch]

Dipre, I dont think Napoli is gonna fall of the map miraculously because he is gonna get more PT. I think his bat is real. But his worth falls greatly if you consider him a 1b or a DH, which is really what he is. I bet he could hit 25-30 homers, 100+RBI and OPS .850 as a regular, and we'll get a chance to see that this season with Morales out and Napoli playing 1b full time. I just think that both injury and defensive suckitude have cut into his playing time.

 

And Dojji, you are vastly underestimating Napoli's defense. He's a f***ing butcher at catcher. You have Martinez at catcher and you have Varitek as a backup. The last thing you need is another defensive butcher with some pop behind the dish. If the sox really wanted to change things up, they'd get a good defensive catcher who isnt totally lost at the dish, like a Bobby Wilson type.

[Dipre]

Dipre' date=' I dont think Napoli is gonna fall of the map miraculously because he is gonna get more PT. I think his bat is real. But his worth falls greatly if you consider him a 1b or a DH, which is really what he is. I bet he could hit 25-30 homers, 100+RBI and OPS .850 as a regular, and we'll get a chance to see that this season with Morales out and Napoli playing 1b full time. I just think that both injury and defensive suckitude have cut into his playing time.[/quote']

 

I'm not saying his offense will completely fall off. But it's not the same being a regular catcher and a tandem catcher, as i'm sure you know, and also, if you read one of his above posts, he's touting Napoli as a "40 HR bat" which is incorrect, because he's never been on a 40-Hr pace in his career, and also noticed how i projected him as a "30-HR" bat in an earlier post. The RBI argument is, of course, moot as it depends on lineup position, not to mention that what i really think would suffer with regular playing time is his OBP. There's more to offense than hitting HR's, as you know many a player in MLB (Chris Davis comes to mind) can attest to.

 

And Dojji, you are vastly underestimating Napoli's defense. He's a f***ing butcher at catcher. You have Martinez at catcher and you have Varitek as a backup. The last thing you need is another defensive butcher with some pop behind the dish. If the sox really wanted to change things up, they'd get a good defensive catcher who isnt totally lost at the dish, like a Bobby Wilson type.

 

Also, this is correct. As i stated above, getting Napoli for three years only perpetuated a problem the Sox currently have and need to fix, it doesn't make sense to trade a player who's proven to be superior over bigger sample sizes for a player whose performance for a full season (and who's a defensive butcher, to boot) remain to be seen, and for three seasons. It defies logic.

[26 to 6]

Even without the splitty' date=' he's a top 5 closer in the game. We'd be hard pressed to find someone better after Mo walks. That being said, Mo has showed no signs of let-up. What he's lost in velocity, he has gained in location and movement. Plus his 2 seamer is turning into a nice pitch[/quote']

I just don't like the dude. In fact I hate him. I'd rather try and develop someone else or find another alternative on the free agent market when that time comes.

[Dipre]

I just don't like the dude. In fact I hate him. I'd rather try and develop someone else or find another alternative on the free agent market when that time comes.

 

Sign Brad Lidge.:thumbsup:

[Palodios]

I'm not saying his offense will completely fall off. But it's not the same being a regular catcher and a tandem catcher' date=' as i'm sure you know, and also, if you read one of his above posts, he's touting Napoli as a "40 HR bat" which is incorrect, because he's never been on a 40-Hr pace in his career, and also noticed how i projected him as a "30-HR" bat in an earlier post. The RBI argument is, of course, moot as it depends on lineup position, not to mention that what i really think would suffer with regular playing time is his OBP. There's more to offense than hitting HR's, as you know many a player in MLB (Chris Davis comes to mind) can attest to..[/quote']

 

I agree with one of the points you posed in the thread earlier-- that Napoli has yet to be proven for a full season. But don't say there is no evidence that Napoli is a 40 HR bat-- in 2008 he hit 20 in 78 games, the majority of which he was a catcher. That alone says that as a 1B/DH, he atleast has the potential to be a 40 HR hitter.

[Dojji]

Sample sizes: Use them.

 

Napoli's numbers are over a sample size of more than 1600 plate appearances. So thank you for your advice, but I already did that.

 

And LOL@YOU thinking you can evaluate a player better than a ML ballclub.

 

You still don't get it.

 

I was being generous TO YOU in assuming that the Angels might not realize what they have, and wouldn't demand a top prospect in return for it.

[Spudboy]

Lol.

[Dipre]

Napoli's numbers are over a sample size of more than 1600 plate appearances. So thank you for your advice, but I already did that.

 

 

You still don't get it.

 

I was being generous TO YOU in assuming that the Angels might not realize what they have, and wouldn't demand a top prospect in return for it.

 

Spread out over five years of limited AB's, the concept of regular and limited playing time shouldn't be so hard to comprehend. LOL.

 

And the last sentence. Well i may need to be taken to the hospital due to an attack of hysteric laughter.

[Dojji]

Napoli's games played last three seasons: 233, .879 OPS, 128 OPS+

 

V-Mart's games played last three seasons: 375, .838 OPS, 121 OPS+.

 

Materially superior, certainly not inferior, but let's watch you try to wriggle your way around that..

Martinez has played 142 games more than Napoli. Napoli has been more of a part-time player, and over more significant sample sizes, offensive performances tend to even out with hitter tendencies and weaknesses becoming more exposed. I don't need to explain this to you, but as usual, when you're "Doiji'd" with a player logic eludes you, and no amount of numbers or logical arguments will be enough to counteract the blatant bias.

 

Feel free to lash out with another post long on insult and short on substance if you'd like,

 

Mission accomplished. You looked and found numbers agreeing with me, and then you fished around until you found a flimsy excuse to try to rest your argument on.

 

That's really all you have? By the same token Carlos Pena or Adam Dunn should have "flattened out" over a larger sample size. It's the same skillset.

 

You're basically relying on pure speculation to try to give yourself any argument at all. It'd be comical if you weren't so serious.

Feel free to use logic and not dodge particular subjects (Sample sizes anyone?) (Role-player vs full time regular anyone?) (Decline in offensive performances as the year goes on due to the rigors of catching FULL TIME) when making an assesment of a player. Martinez is clearly a better hitter and player than Napoli, who is a role player.

 

By the same token, feel free to emerge from your rectal headrest for a second and stop inventing reasons to disagree with me for the disagreement's own sake.

 

Napoli is not a part-time player. Hasn't been one since 2008, started a majority of his team's games despite an injury that took a month out of his season in 2009 and has caught 37 games 2 months into the season -- again, a majority of the games. Jeff Mathis by contract, has played 10 games, less than Varitek -- to this point in the season Napoli is clearly the starter, and he's doing fine.

 

 

 

You could at least get your facts straight. Napoli caught 87 games last year, and as a catcher, he had an .817 OPS.

 

Check BBR. You are wrong on both counts. He caught 96 games, and started 84. As to your OPS-while-playing-catcher, weren't you the one complaining that the sample size was small enough as it is? Why shrink it further with meaningless cherry-picking? Oh right, because it allows you to continue to maintain your position.

 

If he were to put up an entire season of above-average hitting from the C position, then you could make an argument about his offensive potential,

 

He already has, and he's in process of another, but you're too busy browngazing to figure it out.

[Dipre]

Two simple points:

 

1)Napoli's playing time has been spread as a part-time player throughout a number of seasons. A player that is used in positive matchups will usually have superior numbers than if played full-time. Or so would logic dictate. Jason Varitek could maintain an upper .800 OPS if played throughout 70-80 games in positive matchups for him. But wait, that's what they've done with Napoli throughout his career!

 

2) Napoli warms the bench for Jeff Mathis. You are not a better talent evaluator than Mike Scioscia or the Angels organization as a whole. Max games catched in a season: 87. A WHOLE SEASON!!!!

 

That is all.

[Dipre]

Materially superior' date=' certainly not [i']inferior[/i], but let's watch you try to wriggle your way around that..

 

Mission accomplished. You looked and found numbers agreeing with me, and then you fished around until you found a flimsy excuse to try to rest your argument on.

 

He's never been a full-time player. You can try to wiggle your way out of that all you want, but perhaps your "rectal headset" doesn't allow you to?

 

That's really all you have? By the same token Carlos Pena or Adam Dunn should have "flattened out" over a larger sample size. It's the same skillset.

 

You're basically relying on pure speculation to try to give yourself any argument at all. It'd be comical if you weren't so serious.

 

Oh yeah, let's compare Mike Napoli to Adam Dunn or Carlos Pena. They have never been regular players and have been played based on matchups for basically all of their career. Yup. They're also catchers, who are not known to lose offensive firepower as the season progresses due to the rigors of catching. I'm obviously making that up.

 

By the same token, feel free to emerge from your rectal headrest for a second and stop inventing reasons to disagree with me for the disagreement's own sake.

 

Napoli is not a part-time player. Hasn't been one since 2008, started a majority of his team's games despite an injury that took a month out of his season in 2009 and has caught 37 games 2 months into the season -- again, a majority of the games. Jeff Mathis by contract, has played 10 games, less than Varitek -- to this point in the season Napoli is clearly the starter, and he's doing fine.

 

Napoli played 114 games last year. He has never played more than 114 games in a season, of those, only 84 were started at C. Therefore, he has never played a full season in the Major Leagues, and has never catched more than 100 games. But hey, if being a tandem catcher's not being a part-time player, then maybe there are some baseball terms i simply don't understand and i need you to explain to me.:dunno:

 

 

 

Check BBR. You are wrong on both counts. He caught 96 games, and started 84. As to your OPS-while-playing-catcher, weren't you the one complaining that the sample size was small enough as it is? Why shrink it further with meaningless cherry-picking? Oh right, because it allows you to continue to maintain your position.

 

Incorrect.

 

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/split.cgi?n1=napolmi01&year=2009&t=b#defp

 

Started 87 games.

 

 

He already has, and he's in process of another, but you're too busy browngazing to figure it out.

 

Needs to play more than 114 games, and catch more than 100. My money's on it not happening this year, but Mike Scioscia might just listen to you. After all, you can evaluate talent better than them.

[jacksonianmarch]

No, my dick's bigger

[Dipre]

No' date=' my dick's bigger[/quote']

 

But, but, you're jewish!

 

gom told me to make that joke when i had the chance btw.

[Dipre]

In all seriousness, who in their right mind would trade Casey Kelly or Victor Martinez straight up for Mike Napoli?

 

Anyone?

[jacksonianmarch]

I wouldnt. It's stupid. Napoli is a good player with a good bat and no position. The sox have a few of those types

[italstallianion]

In all seriousness, who in their right mind would trade Casey Kelly or Victor Martinez straight up for Mike Napoli?

 

Anyone?

 

 

 

Steve Phillips, Eric Mangini, Isaiah Thomas and a few others.

[Dipre]

I wouldnt. It's stupid. Napoli is a good player with a good bat and no position. The sox have a few of those types

 

Quick comparison:

 

Victor Martinez games caught by season 2004-2010:

 

2004: 126

 

2005: 140

 

2006: 128

 

2007: 121

 

2008: 55 (Injured)

 

2009: .83

 

Mike Napoli games played 2006-2009:

 

2006: 87

 

2007: 68

 

2008: 74

 

2009: 87

 

Who's the regular and who's the part time player?

[Emmz]

Steve Phillips' date=' Eric Mangini, Isaiah Thomas and a few others.[/quote']

 

Bill Smith would trade both of those guys for like... Some troubled prospect, or some guy who has a bunch of upside, and athleticism, but can't hit for jack s***. Add Bill Smith to that list too.

[Keeper]

If the Sox could get Mike Trout with Napoli, I would consider giving up Kelly.

[Youk Of The Nation]

They have a prospect named Trout? Too bad he didn't come up a few years ago, would have made some amusing joke material when Tim Salmon was still playing.

[rhet]

In all seriousness, who in their right mind would trade Casey Kelly or Victor Martinez straight up for Mike Napoli?

 

Anyone?

 

How about the guy who traded Bronson Arroyo for Wily Mo Pena?

[redsoxrules]

How about the guy who traded Bronson Arroyo for Wily Mo Pena?

 

they both suck