Possible Lowell suitor

[rhet]

they both suck

 

So you think it was a fair trade?

[redsoxrules]

So you think it was a fair trade?

 

no ... we traded garbage for bigger garbage .

 

so its not that bad at the end of it

[Dojji]

We traded garbage for cheaper garbage, too, garbage that was fairly easy to get rid of when it was clear that's what it was.

 

The WMP trade wasn't an awful idea, it just didn't work in the long run. Looked like it might at a couple points, but Modesto just couldn't stay consistent. I don't think Arroyo saves us in 2006 and we won the Series in 2007 so ultimately it didn't do any real damage either.

[rhet]

I don't know. He's been just about as good as Beckett.

Since 06...

ERA+ Arroyo 110, Beckett 111

ERA Arroyo 4.07, Beckett 4.22

 

Any way you slice it, the Reds took Theo to the cleaners on that deal.

[Dipre]

I don't know. He's been just about as good as Beckett.

Since 06...

ERA+ Arroyo 110, Beckett 111

ERA Arroyo 4.07, Beckett 4.22

 

Any way you slice it, the Reds took Theo to the cleaners on that deal.

 

Lol because the NL Central is the same as the AL East.

[redsoxrules]

I don't know. He's been just about as good as Beckett.

Since 06...

ERA+ Arroyo 110, Beckett 111

ERA Arroyo 4.07, Beckett 4.22

 

Any way you slice it, the Reds took Theo to the cleaners on that deal.

 

you're comparing Arroyo's NL central numbers to Beckett's AL east numbers ?

 

enough said

[rhet]

You probably don't know, but ERA+ is adjusted to the player's ballpark. The numbers are the numbers. Any way you slice them, there isn't a ton of difference between the effectiveness of the two in the regular season.

 

Theo clearly got fleeced when he traded a decent innings eating starter for a lunk who couldn't stay in baseball past age 26.

[Dipre]

You probably don't know, but ERA+ is adjusted to the player's ballpark. The numbers are the numbers. Any way you slice them, there isn't a ton of difference between the two.

 

Theo clearly got fleeced when he traded a decent innings eating starter for a guy who couldn't stay in baseball past age 26.

 

Ballpark, not league.

 

There's a major difference between Arroyo and Beckett.

 

Just look at the peripherals (2006-2010):

 

Arroyo: 1.319 WHIP (LOL)/6.4 K/9 (LOL)/2.33 BB/9 (LOL)

 

Beckett: 1.20 WHIP, 8.2 K/9, 2.4 BB/9.

 

Arroyo pitched in the NL Central, and Beckett pitched in the AL East. so Beckett has had better peripherals while pitching in the stronger league, which makes the argument border on the ridiculous.

 

Honest question:

 

Who would have chosen Arroyo over Beckett when looking at the numbers?

[redsoxrules]

You probably don't know, but ERA+ is adjusted to the player's ballpark. The numbers are the numbers. Any way you slice them, there isn't a ton of difference between the effectiveness of the two in the regular season.

 

Theo clearly got fleeced when he traded a decent innings eating starter for a lunk who couldn't stay in baseball past age 26.

 

you proably dont know BUT the NL has an automatic out in the 9 hole and that the NL central is not a strong Division

[Dipre]

The numbers are the numbers.

 

When you want to criticize the FO, however, when talking about players you don't like, the numbers aren't the numbers. RBI are the numbers. Well done sir.

[rhet]

Not to mention, gentlemen, that Arroyo's ERA+ in the American League is higher than it is in the NL. He had 112 with the Sox, 110 with the Reds. (Sorry to kill your whole non-argument, but thems the facts.)

 

Of course, the issue isn't really Arroyo, it's the judgment of the GM who traded him for nothing.

[a700hitter]

Originally Posted by rhet

How about the guy who traded Bronson Arroyo for Wily Mo Pena?

 

they both suck

You think Bronson Arroyo is as bad a major league player as Wily Mo Pena? Arroyo has held down a major league role for years. Wily Mo was a complete bust.

[rhet]

His 86 Quality Starts from 06 to 09 were probably more than any Red Sox pitcher.

[Spudboy]

You think Bronson Arroyo is as bad a major league player as Wily Mo Pena? Arroyo has held down a major league role for years. Wily Mo was a complete bust.

 

I'd take Arroyo over Dice-Suck.

[Emmz]

I'd rather have Hanley Ramirez and Bronson Arroyo than Josh Beckett, Mike Lowell and Wily Mo Pena.

[Rdsxmbnt]

I'd rather have Hanley Ramirez and Bronson Arroyo than Josh Beckett' date=' Mike Lowell and Wily Mo Pena.[/quote']

 

And possibly substitute a WS championship? Neither of these moves can be looked at just on their own.

 

Also Carlos Silva and Brad Penny are practically aces in the NL, I think that about sums things up.

[VA Sox Fan]

I'd rather have Hanley Ramirez and Bronson Arroyo than Josh Beckett' date=' Mike Lowell and Wily Mo Pena.[/quote']

 

I love Bronson but he got screwed, signed for the hometown discount and then traded to the Reds.

 

BUT, Lowell was the 2007 WS MVP and Beckett pitched his ass off. I've loved having both of those guys. Fk Wily Mo Worthless.

[Emmz]

No, it was kind of just tongue-in-cheek.

[Emmz]

I really just wish we never gave up Hanley Ramirez, that's about all.

[Spudboy]

I love Bronson but he got screwed, signed for the hometown discount and then traded to the Reds.

 

BUT, Lowell was the 2007 WS MVP and Beckett pitched his ass off. I've loved having both of those guys. Fk Wily Mo Worthless.

 

Well said.

[Dipre]

Josh Beckett and Mike Lowell + 07 WS>>>>>>>>>>>>>Bronson.

 

The whole argument is just another example of rhet's personal vendetta against the FO.

 

His attempt to use ERA+ is completely incorrect. The context of the argument pertains league, not ballpark, not to mention the one year he was a full-time starter in the NL and had more than 180 IP he had a 4.51 ERA and 101 ERA+.

 

Don't get me wrong, in retrospect, we got the short end of the stick, but it wasn't a "fleecing" of massive proportions as rhet intends to portray it. They had a surplus of pitching (or so they thought, you can never have too much pitching) and tried to turn it into a guy who had tremendous upside but could never quite put everything together, and it backfired, but trying to compare Arroyo's NL body of work to Beckett's AL body of work is ridiculous.

 

Brad Penny and Carlos Silva are looking like legitimate number one starters in the NL, because it's an inferior league. Trying to overlook that is foolish.

[Spudboy]

Whatever.

[Dipre]

This is a baseball forum, as you said yourself in another thread, we're discussing baseball. Is that a problem?

[Emmz]

Don't get me wrong' date=' in retrospect, we got the short end of the stick, but it wasn't a "fleecing" of massive proportions as rhet intends to portray it. They had a surplus of pitching (or so they thought, you can never have too much pitching) and tried to [b']turn it into a guy who had tremendous upside but could never quite put everything together, and it backfired, but trying to compare Arroyo's NL body of work to Beckett's AL body of work is ridiculous.[/b]

 

All of this, I remember people comparing Wily Mo Pena to Manny Ramirez, no kidding.

 

I can see an argument for people wishing to not have ever made the trade, because I really don't think that Arroyo is garbage, but Josh Beckett is definitely a better pitcher.

[Dipre]

All of this, I remember people comparing Wily Mo Pena to Manny Ramirez, no kidding.

 

I can see an argument for people wishing to not have ever made the trade, because I really don't think that Arroyo is garbage, but Josh Beckett is definitely a better pitcher.

 

Arroyo's not garbage, but he's not in Beckett's league, and he's also much more suited for the NL, he suffered a massive regression from his very good 2004 to his 2005 season, and it raised red flags. But what's done is done, and both Beckett and Lowell were key parts in the 2007 WS run.

[VA Sox Fan]

Arroyo's not garbage' date=' but he's not in Beckett's league, and he's also much more suited for the NL, he suffered a massive regression from his very good 2004 to his 2005 season, and it raised red flags. But what's done is done, and both Beckett and Lowell were key parts in the 2007 WS run.[/quote']

 

Agreed. I think Theo thought WMP could be another big offensive contributor but he was wrong on that one for sure!

[Dipre]

Agreed. I think Theo thought WMP could be another big offensive contributor but he was wrong on that one for sure!

 

Million dollar body, ten cent head. That's the type of guy everybody thinks they can fix and keeps getting chances, but more often than not, never puts everything together. It's a high risk-high reward type of proposition.

[Rdsxmbnt]

Can't fault Theo for taking the risk on Pena when it appeared like we had the SP flexibility to make the move.

 

The problem with Pena was that he was rushed through the minor leagues and never developed proper defensive and plate discipline abilities. However, at 22 years old Pena hit 26 HR in 364 AB which showed he had the potential to be a 40-50 HR hitter in his prime. Didn't work out, but if he had developed properly he would have been a future middle of the order bat in his prime for an average AL starter.

[VA Sox Fan]

Can't fault Theo for taking the risk on Pena when it appeared like we had the SP flexibility to make the move.

 

The problem with Pena was that he was rushed through the minor leagues and never developed proper defensive and plate discipline abilities. However, at 22 years old Pena hit 26 HR in 364 AB which showed he had the potential to be a 40-50 HR hitter in his prime. Didn't work out, but if he had developed properly he would have been a future middle of the order bat in his prime for an average AL starter.

 

Yeah, he never learned to hit a curve ball among other short-comings.

 

It was a risk that Theo took and it didn't work out. It wasn't even close to working out. No GM is perfect.

[Dipre]

Can't fault Theo for taking the risk on Pena when it appeared like we had the SP flexibility to make the move.

 

The problem with Pena was that he was rushed through the minor leagues and never developed proper defensive and plate discipline abilities. However, at 22 years old Pena hit 26 HR in 364 AB which showed he had the potential to be a 40-50 HR hitter in his prime. Didn't work out, but if he had developed properly he would have been a future middle of the order bat in his prime for an average AL starter.

 

It was a bad trade in restrospect (love hindsight) but the truth is, Arroyo would have been exactly that, an average AL starter.