That Game was a preview of what's to come with no Gonzo..

[Dojji]

You should keep beating this dead horse. If theres something that characterizes the biggest failure of this FO' date=' was their non-acquisition of Teixeira. It handed the Yanks the 2009 Championship in a platter and is going to prove costly in terms of prospects to acquire a bat if Ortiz is truly done this season, prolonging the impact of the failure.[/quote']

 

If that's a failure, then failure was assured. There was no way, at all, ever, that the New York Yankees were going to fail to land Teixeira. It simply would not happen in any concievable offseason scenario that didn't involve Teixeira, himself, adopting an ABNY mindset. Since we now know he adopted the virtual opposite of that mindset, the concept of Teixeira in a Red Sox uniform is ridiculous and reflects badly on the grip on reality anyone who holds that pipe dream may have had at some point (but certainly not anymore). He had as much or more chance to be an Oriole.

 

Probably more so than CC Sabathia, Teixeira was the Yankees' primary offseason acquisition. They'd been hurting at first base for years, especially defensively. I can't conceive of the Steinbrenner family putting ANY spending limits on Cashman to bring him in. They had too much money to spend and too obvious a need for Teixeira's services.

 

If we tried to beat the known best offer by $10M, the Yankees unblinkingly beat THAT by $10M, rinse and repeat until Teixeira is a Yankee. That is how it would have worked, no doubt in my mind at all. No matter how far up that scale we go, the Yankees were ready, willing and able to go further.

 

So go ahead and beat the dead horse, but bear in mind as you bear it that the horse was stillborn. It was never a live horse to begin with.

[Dojji]

If this team is 8+ out by the break, then I hope like hell Theo DOESN'T go after Gonzalez.

 

Deep down I think he knew this season was going to be a struggle, and I give him credit for putting together a staff that should be able to keep them competitive in a lot of games. The bullpen is still a major question mark and unfortunately the offense isn't good enough to hang with the Rays or Yanks.

 

Any other division, I think the Sox probably win it. Now I am having a hard time seeing this team playing postseason baseball.

 

 

 

We haven't missed the playoffs in what, 4 years? That's actually about right.

 

03 04 05 we make it, we miss 06, 07 08 09 we make it. even if we miss this year any GM takes that pattern.

[redsoxrules]

If that's a failure' date=' then failure was assured. [b']There was no way, at all, ever, that the New York Yankees were going to fail to land Teixeira. [/b] It simply would not happen in any concievable offseason scenario that didn't involve Teixeira, himself, adopting an ABNY mindset. Since we now know he adopted the virtual opposite of that mindset, the concept of Teixeira in a Red Sox uniform is ridiculous and reflects badly on the grip on reality anyone who holds that pipe dream may have had at some point (but certainly not anymore). He had as much or more chance to be an Oriole.

 

Probably more so than CC Sabathia, Teixeira was the Yankees' primary offseason acquisition. They'd been hurting at first base for years, especially defensively. I can't conceive of the Steinbrenner family putting ANY spending limits on Cashman to bring him in. They had too much money to spend and too obvious a need for Teixeira's services.

 

If we tried to beat the known best offer by $10M, the Yankees unblinkingly beat THAT by $10M, rinse and repeat until Teixeira is a Yankee. That is how it would have worked, no doubt in my mind at all. No matter how far up that scale we go, the Yankees were ready, willing and able to go further.

 

So go ahead and beat the dead horse, but bear in mind as you bear it that the horse was stillborn. It was never a live horse to begin with.

 

 

IF Theo had 190 Million on the table we'd have Tex playing first base today

[yankees228]

If that's a failure, then failure was assured. There was no way, at all, ever, that the New York Yankees were going to fail to land Teixeira. It simply would not happen in any concievable offseason scenario that didn't involve Teixeira, himself, adopting an ABNY mindset. Since we now know he adopted the virtual opposite of that mindset, the concept of Teixeira in a Red Sox uniform is ridiculous and reflects badly on the grip on reality anyone who holds that pipe dream may have had at some point (but certainly not anymore). He had as much or more chance to be an Oriole.

 

Probably more so than CC Sabathia, Teixeira was the Yankees' primary offseason acquisition. They'd been hurting at first base for years, especially defensively. I can't conceive of the Steinbrenner family putting ANY spending limits on Cashman to bring him in. They had too much money to spend and too obvious a need for Teixeira's services.

 

If we tried to beat the known best offer by $10M, the Yankees unblinkingly beat THAT by $10M, rinse and repeat until Teixeira is a Yankee. That is how it would have worked, no doubt in my mind at all. No matter how far up that scale we go, the Yankees were ready, willing and able to go further.

 

So go ahead and beat the dead horse, but bear in mind as you bear it that the horse was stillborn. It was never a live horse to begin with.

 

Thing is, this new Yankees regime, under Steinbrenner's sons and Cashman, really have been pretty honest. Look no further than this offseason for proof of that. It was reported, and confirmed by multiple people in the Yankees' front office, that the Steinbrenners were initially unwilling to pay the money necessary to land Teixeira. Then, at the last second, Steinbrenner OK'd the current offer.

 

Choose to believe what you want. This is a pointless discussion, because we have no idea what their mindset was. But here's the thing. You're just spouting out baseless claims, and acting like they're fact. I'm not acting like my claims are fact, but I also realize that they at least have some support.

 

The scenario that played out over last winter, and the information that has been reported and confirmed, at the very least, hardly makes it seem like it was the priority that you're making it out to be.

 

And on top of all this, there are two key facts that you're overlooked.

 

1. If the Yankees prioritized him like they prioritized Sabathia, why'd they wait as long as they did? Remember, at the first possible moment, they offered Sabathia 140 million dollars. He was their priority way above anyone else, and they made that clear with their actions.

 

2. This is conjecture, but again, based on (what I consider) logic and reports and confirmations, the Yankees acquired Swisher to play first base, with an outfield of Damon-Cabrera/Gardner-Nady.

[Dojji]

IF Theo had 190 Million on the table we'd have Tex playing first base today

 

If Theo had 190 million on the table we'd have Tex playing first base for the Yankees on a 200 million dollar contract.

 

If he had 210 million, we'd have Tex playing first base for the Yankees on a 220 million dollar contract.

 

And so on.

 

Get the point yet? We have a ton of money to play with, but we're the #2 guy playing up against the chip leader. Just because we could beat the best known offer, doesn't mean the Yankees wouldn't have simply re-raised until we had to fold.

[redsoxrules]

If Theo had 190 million on the table we'd have Tex playing first base for the Yankees on a 200 million dollar contract.

 

If he had 210 million, we'd have Tex playing first base for the Yankees on a 220 million dollar contract.

 

And so on.

 

Get the point yet? We have a ton of money to play with, but we're the #2 guy playing up against the chip leader. Just because we could beat the best known offer, doesn't mean the Yankees wouldn't have simply re-raised until we had to fold.

 

 

no teams would of paid Tex 220 Million , not even the yankees

[example1]

The Teixeira talk IS beating a dead horse. Go ahead and beat it if you want (that's what she said), but it isn't going to change anything or address the current needs. I was a big fan of getting Teixeira and agree that it was a pivotal moment.

 

As far as getting a middle-order bat goes, I think the Sox will make a move and that Buchholz is a likely piece. I wouldn't be shocked if Ellsbury were as well. They have good pitching depth without Buchholz and great young OF depth with a current CF in Cameron. They could definitely be okay with Hermida and Reddick with Kalish, Lin, etc., coming up.

 

I'm not convinced that Gonzalez is the only guy they can get, and I'm also not convinced that making that moves assures them of any success in 2010. The move they make for a big bat needs to be with the future in mind, not trying to salvage one season when the cards may already be against them.

 

I'm always an optimist, and the way the Sox pummeled the Yankees at the beginning of the year last year should be a reminder of why there is still hope for this team (i.e., the Yankees looked really bad and won the whole thing). That said, this team has serious flaws that-as Kilo pointed out--makes them really not fun to watch.

[Dojji]

1. If the Yankees prioritized him like they prioritized Sabathia, why'd they wait as long as they did? Remember, at the first possible moment, they offered Sabathia 140 million dollars. He was their priority way above anyone else, and they made that clear with their actions.

 

It takes two guys to sign a contract, three if you count Scott Boras. Boras and Teixeira felt that playing the Sox-Yankees angle as long as possible would increase the size of the contract. It's pretty standard Boras fare really.

 

On the other hand the Sox weren't making a serious play for Sabathia, and no one else really wanted to play against the offer already on the table, so there was less reason for CC to hold out.

 

2. This is conjecture, but again, based on (what I consider) logic and reports and confirmations, the Yankees acquired Swisher to play first base, with an outfield of Damon-Cabrera/Gardner-Nady.

 

Swisher gave them options, but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that the Yankees would still go 100% after Teixeira, even with Swisher in the fold. Xavier Nady isn't really that good anyway and probably would have been relegated to a backup role on that team even if he had been healthy all year.

 

So yeah, you've got a good point here, but not really good enough to convince me that the Yankees weren't fully committed to bringing Teixeira to New York and beating any effort by Boston to do so. And while I admit I'm basing that mostly on conjecture, what isn't conjecture is that New York really wanted Teixeira and had more money to spend on a new first baseman than Boston did. The running assumption that some Boston fans have that if we had beaten the winning offer by $10M, the Yankees would simply have bowed out and moved on seems very unrealistic to me.

[example1]

no teams would of paid Tex 220 Million ' date=' not even the yankees[/quote']

 

It's just money and it's likely the difference between multiple years of the Sox as favorites and the Yankees starting a new dynasty. I think tens of millions of dollars is pretty marginal compared to that swing in the balance of power when the Yankees revenue streams are taken into account. Winning generates absurd amounts of money for the Yankees.

[Dojji]

no teams would of paid Tex 220 Million ' date=' not even the yankees[/quote']

 

You underestimate the Yankees. I didn't think they'd pay A-Rod $300M. They did it though.

[yankees228]

It's not about holding out. The Yankees showed absolutely no legitimate interest (that was made public, which is all we can go on), until the very end of the process. With Sabathia, they made an immediate push for him. He was the priority, far above anyone else, and this is completely clear any way you slice it.

 

And you're right, I do have a point, but even I'd admit that the fraction of my post that you quoted shouldn't be enough to convince you. However, the post in it's entirety, in my opinion, represents a pretty solid case.

 

EDIT: @ Dojji

[Migual Cabrera 2 sox 2009]

Nobody knows what would of happened with Tex, there is no reason to debate over something that cant be changed.

[Dojji]

You're actually wrong on that (@yankees228). Teixeira to the Yankees was a persistent rumor even during the previous season's trade deadline discussions, the Angels simply beat the best known NYY offer. He'd also been linked to the Yankees in offseason rumors several times well before it was obvious where he was going. Rumors did hold that interest to be somewhat tepid, but I didn't believe that at the time and I still don't. Swisher or no Swisher, you see an opportunity to fill a problem position (like 1B for NYY) with a proven 27 year old star level hitter in an offseason in which you've just missed the playoffs and are committed to spend big to improve the team anyway, your reaction is not "tepid."

[diony]

You underestimate the Yankees. I didn't think they'd pay A-Rod $300M. They did it though.

 

That was Hank. Cash has full authority now. If Theo had offered 200/10 to Tex, Nick Swisher would be our starting 1B right now.

[yankees228]

You're actually wrong on that (@yankees228). Teixeira to the Yankees was a persistent rumor even during the previous season's trade deadline discussions' date=' and he'd been linked to the Yankees in offseason rumors several times well before it was obvious where he was going. Rumors did hold that interest to be somewhat tepid, but I didn't believe that at the time and I still don't. Swisher or no Swisher, you see an opportunity to fill a problem position (like 1B for NYY) with a proven 27 year old star level hitter in an offseason in which you've just missed the playoffs and are committed to spend big to improve the team, your reaction is not "tepid."[/quote']

 

This is going nowhere. Sure there were rumors. Obviously there were rumors. It's a big name, it's the Yankees. There are always going to be rumors. But if you think that the Yankees showed similar interest in Teixeira like they showed in Sabathia, then I don't know what to tell you. We can only go by what was made public, and if you believe that, then you either don't have a clear recollection of the offseason or you're being illogical.

 

Additionally, you continue to focus on a fraction of my argument.

[Dojji]

That was Hank. Cash has full authority now.

 

Riiiiiiiiiight. Pull the other one, it's got bells on it.

[Spudboy]

It's just money and it's likely the difference between multiple years of the Sox as favorites and the Yankees starting a new dynasty. I think tens of millions of dollars is pretty marginal compared to that swing in the balance of power when the Yankees revenue streams are taken into account. Winning generates absurd amounts of money for the Yankees.

 

Bingo. Ultimately, that is what it was bound to come down to.

 

I remember wondering why the Yankees signed Swisher without making a big play for the real prize. Next thing I know, Tex is standing in front of the media saying that his wife really wanted to live in NY and that he had always wanted to play for the Yankees. Right.

 

Revisiting this issue serves no purpose. It's a done deal and the Sox need to find a way to build a team with enough talent to continue making s*** loads of money. The bottom line is R.O.I., not World Series titles.

[Gom]

And I hate to continue to beat the dead horse, but this is exactly why landing Teixeira was so vital and critical, and why it is a huge failure on this FO that they did not get him.

 

And as I type, another shitshow at Fenway today. Is this team 10 games out by Memorial Day? Will people go watch a team with a 150 million dollar payroll flounder below .500?

 

Go ask the Mets how that's working.

 

Finally, a voice of reason. Kilo and I basically say the same things, but it just stings a lot more coming from me.

 

If Theo had 190 million on the table we'd have Tex playing first base for the Yankees on a 200 million dollar contract.

 

If he had 210 million, we'd have Tex playing first base for the Yankees on a 220 million dollar contract.

 

And so on.

 

Get the point yet? We have a ton of money to play with, but we're the #2 guy playing up against the chip leader. Just because we could beat the best known offer, doesn't mean the Yankees wouldn't have simply re-raised until we had to fold.

 

The Yankees have more money than any other team, but it not limitless. Only a fool would believe that. The Yankees turned down Beltran because Boras wanted too much money. The Yankees really only got involved when Henry dropped the ball...and this is from what I've read. I wasn't there...but then again, neither was anyone else.

 

Only someone foolish believes the "I've always wanted to be a Yankee" crap. Damon said it when he left Boston. ********. Then he said he always wanted to be a Tiger after negotiations fell apart with the Yankees. CC said it....but is there anyone who believes he would have left the Brewers if the money was the same? About the only one I believe was AJ, who was offered 1.5 million more over the entire deal by the Yankees, and that money would have been offset by NY's higher tax rate than if he would have went to Georgia.

 

From what I read, Cashman told Tex/Boras to keep them in the loop. AFTER the Henry fiasco, they took a poll in the Yankee front office: Tex long term, or Manny short term. Tex won. He went to ownership, and they ok'd it. It wasn't a question of payroll [Manny would have cost roughly the same per year] but it was more a question of commitment. Hal/Hank said yes, Tex was a Yankee 48 hours later.

 

The thing is, even if you get AGon, it's only 1/2 to 1 1/2 years on the cheap. Then he cashes in big time. So basically, is it worth it to give up a ton of prospects for him, or just to wait until he becomes a free agent? That's not for me to determine. That's your call as Red Sox fans.

 

Another thing...I don't buy this transition year ********. A team with a 170 million dollar payroll doesn't transition. Period. No ifs, ands, or buts. That's an insult to teams that are transitioning. A lot of you guys are missing the point that you enjoy a significant financial advantage over 28 teams. You don't transition. I can't believe there are some of you who buy this s***.

[a700hitter]

If they hadn't signed Cameron and Beltre, but signed Holliday instead they would have blown their budget but they are already paying a load for this group. They would have great starting pitching and great offense. Instead they are paying a fortune for a team with a glut at the infield corner spot (and the worst offensive player at third is getting most of the PT), and 1 or 2 good offensive outfielders. The team with Holliday would have been a playoff team. This $170 million collection of players will have a tough time getting the last play off spot. Spending $170 million to spend October at home will be a bitter pill to swallow when Holliday would have had a significant impact. We will have to suffer through this very expensive "bridge to nowhere" while arguing who should be getting PT at 1st and 3rd and DH-- Beltre, Lowell, Ortiz and VMart. This glut will result in VMart playing too many games behind the dish where he sucks defensively and Beltre playing too much 3B and he sucks offensively.

[jacksonianmarch]

You're actually wrong on that (@yankees228). Teixeira to the Yankees was a persistent rumor even during the previous season's trade deadline discussions' date=' the Angels simply beat the best known NYY offer. He'd also been linked to the Yankees in offseason rumors several times well before it was obvious where he was going. Rumors did hold that interest to be somewhat tepid, but I didn't believe that at the time and I still don't. Swisher or no Swisher, you see an opportunity to fill a problem position (like 1B for NYY) with a proven 27 year old star level hitter in an offseason in which you've just missed the playoffs and are committed to spend big to improve the team anyway, your reaction is not "tepid."[/quote']

 

That is absolutely not true. I am a rumor follower and at no time was a Tex to the Yankees deal even mentioned in 2008. Hell, the Yankees persistently said they werent interested in Tex once they got Swish. And Cashman recounts his experience by saying that he had to convince Hal to authorize a contract offer, and he did that on the heels of John Henry publicly acknowledging that the Sox werent signing him. Dojji, continuously saying it doesnt make it true.

[TedWilliams101]

If they hadn't signed Cameron and Beltre' date=' but signed Holliday instead they would have blown their budget but they are already paying a load for this group. They would have great starting pitching and great offense. Instead they are paying a fortune for a team with a glut at the infield corner spot (and the worst offensive player at third is getting most of the PT), and 1 or 2 good offensive outfielders. The team with Holliday would have been a playoff team. This $170 million collection of players will have a tough time getting the last play off spot. Spending $170 million to spend October at home will be a bitter pill to swallow when Holliday would have had a significant impact. We will have to suffer through this very expensive "bridge to nowhere" while arguing who should be getting PT at 1st and 3rd and DH-- Beltre, Lowell, Ortiz and VMart. This glut will result in VMart playing too many games behind the dish where he sucks defensively and Beltre playing too much 3B and he sucks offensively.[/quote']

 

Why isn't ANYONE giving Beltre a chance? Last year he missed over 50 games and was injured. Prior to that, he's been a good hitter. I don't think it's fair to say he sucks offensively. Just like I've been saying with everything else, if it's mid may and he's still not hitting, then we might have a problem; it's way to early to say anything now.

[Jasonbay44]

Why isn't ANYONE giving Beltre a chance? Last year he missed over 50 games and was injured. Prior to that' date=' he's been a good hitter. I don't think it's fair to say he sucks offensively. Just like I've been saying with everything else, if it's mid may and he's still not hitting, then we might have a problem; it's way to early to say anything now.[/quote']

 

Yeah, I don't understand the Beltre hate at all, he has been good defensively besides one error (which by the way I still don't understand how you lose a ground ball in the lights) and is one of the only guys who is actually hitting thus far. Although it doesn't seem to be something he does well, I wish he could take a walk every now and then, he swings at some of the worst pitches when he is ahead in the count. Beltre is probably one of the least of my worries concerning this team at the moment, Im much more concerned with guys like Ortiz, Cameron, Lester.

[TheKilo]

It's just money and it's likely the difference between multiple years of the Sox as favorites and the Yankees starting a new dynasty. I think tens of millions of dollars is pretty marginal compared to that swing in the balance of power when the Yankees revenue streams are taken into account. Winning generates absurd amounts of money for the Yankees.

 

absolutely correct. why couldn't the Sox have offered more to Tex? they found 82.5 million to give to Lackey and another ~80 for Beckett.

 

They probably could have gone that extra mile for Tex and for some reason could not close the deal. and it has and will continue to cost them.

[Dipre]

Finally' date=' a voice of reason. Kilo and I basically say the same things, but it just stings a lot more coming from me.[/quote']

 

Another unsubstantiated victory claim. It's like a boxer with an 0-10 record who thinks he should be contending for the title.

 

 

 

The Yankees have more money than any other team, but it not limitless. Only a fool would believe that. The Yankees turned down Beltran because Boras wanted too much money. The Yankees really only got involved when Henry dropped the ball...and this is from what I've read. I wasn't there...but then again, neither was anyone else.

 

Only someone foolish believes the "I've always wanted to be a Yankee" crap. Damon said it when he left Boston. ********. Then he said he always wanted to be a Tiger after negotiations fell apart with the Yankees. CC said it....but is there anyone who believes he would have left the Brewers if the money was the same? About the only one I believe was AJ, who was offered 1.5 million more over the entire deal by the Yankees, and that money would have been offset by NY's higher tax rate than if he would have went to Georgia.

 

From what I read, Cashman told Tex/Boras to keep them in the loop. AFTER the Henry fiasco, they took a poll in the Yankee front office: Tex long term, or Manny short term. Tex won. He went to ownership, and they ok'd it. It wasn't a question of payroll [Manny would have cost roughly the same per year] but it was more a question of commitment. Hal/Hank said yes, Tex was a Yankee 48 hours later.

 

The thing is, even if you get AGon, it's only 1/2 to 1 1/2 years on the cheap. Then he cashes in big time. So basically, is it worth it to give up a ton of prospects for him, or just to wait until he becomes a free agent? That's not for me to determine. That's your call as Red Sox fans.

 

Another thing...I don't buy this transition year ********. A team with a 170 million dollar payroll doesn't transition. Period. No ifs, ands, or buts. That's an insult to teams that are transitioning. A lot of you guys are missing the point that you enjoy a significant financial advantage over 28 teams. You don't transition. I can't believe there are some of you who buy this s***.

 

This post is just another example of the deficiencies of your thought process in regards to baseball economics. Congrats.

 

. The bottom line is R.O.I.' date=' not World Series titles.[/quote']

 

The best way to make money is to win, but we've been through this, so think what you will.

[Gom]

Another unsubstantiated victory claim. It's like a boxer with an 0-10 record who thinks he should be contending for the title.

Where did I ever claim victory? I just said he's the voice of reason. Again, an opinion. I also said that it probably stings Red Sox fans more when they hear it from Yankee fans than from their own. Again...an opinion, and one many people would agree with.

 

Honestly, no matter how many people disagree with you, it doesn't matter. Irrespective of whether you believe something or not, you fail at having the ability to see that other people may have a different opinion. How on earth can you do this consistently?

This post is just another example of the deficiencies of your thought process in regards to baseball economics. Congrats.

Explain. This I'd love to read. Refute one financial point I made in my post. Otherwise, please shut up.

[example1]

absolutely correct. why couldn't the Sox have offered more to Tex? they found 82.5 million to give to Lackey and another ~80 for Beckett.

 

They probably could have gone that extra mile for Tex and for some reason could not close the deal. and it has and will continue to cost them.

 

If what I said is absolutely correct then the Yankees could always step in and offer 10m more. It goes both ways. The Sox could raise their offer, and so could the Yankees. It was essential for both of them. I think the Sox were reluctant to get into a massive bidding war that had them paying Teixeira like A-Rod in the end because he's not A-Rod.

[Dipre]

Where did I ever claim victory? I just said he's the voice of reason. Again, an opinion. I also said that it probably stings Red Sox fans more when they hear it from Yankee fans than from their own. Again...an opinion, and one many people would agree with.

 

Honestly, no matter how many people disagree with you, it doesn't matter. Irrespective of whether you believe something or not, you fail at having the ability to see that other people may have a different opinion. How on earth can you do this consistently?

 

It's like engaging in circular logic.

 

Explain. This I'd love to read. Refute one financial point I made in my post. Otherwise, please shut up.

 

It's simple. It's been explained 1,000,000 times. If you don't have the brain power to comprehend, then shut the f*** up and stop trolling.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

And I hate to continue to beat the dead horse' date=' but this is exactly why landing Teixeira was so vital and critical, and why it is a huge failure on this FO that they did not get him.[/quote']

 

For the billionth time, it was not the front office's fault. What, you mean you would actually be happy with Teixeira on this team at such a horrendous price that even the Yankees (richest team in baseball) withdrew from the bidding (because that's what it would take)?

 

The FO didn't fail. They didn't give out a catastrophically bad contract that almost certainly would have hindered further improvement in other areas. Mark Teixeira isn't a one of a kind player.

 

I don't know how many times that has to be explained before it sinks in.

 

And as I type, another shitshow at Fenway today. Is this team 10 games out by Memorial Day? Will people go watch a team with a 150 million dollar payroll flounder below .500?

 

Go ask the Mets how that's working.

 

http://www.neonsumo.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/sky-falling.jpg

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

The Ortiz bashing is the only thing I agree with the panictards about. He sucks and needs to vanish.

[example1]

The Ortiz bashing is the only thing I agree with the panictards about. He sucks and needs to vanish.

 

The middle relief is pretty weak. And the defense has been shockingly bad so far too. I'm confident that guys like Cameron and Scutaro will end up being positive defensively--both have single handedly blown games already, surprisingly.