Kyle Weiland

[Dojji]

http://www.soxprospects.com/players/weiland-kyle.htm

 

Haven't heard much talk about this guy, but he seems to have decent stuff and be on a good track through the minors. You'd think we'd hear more about a guy with his profile, especially a relatively high pick (third round) but with all the talk about Bowden, Tazawa, Pimentel, Doubront, I guess this guy got lost in the works. I haven't even really heard a solid opinion on whether he has major league secondary stuff or whether Soxprospects' prediction that has him starting the year in Portland makes sense..

 

So who is this guy? What does he really throw, and has anyone seen enough of him to give an opinion on whether we can expect this guy in our bullpen in 2-3 years?

[example1]

I don't know enough about him to give a scouting report, other than probably the same things that you have read.

 

You're right that we don't hear a lot about him but that is because the Red Sox really have great pitching depth. You can include Stephen Fife and Casey Kelly in your list of players who may be clouding a true assessment of Weiland, pushing him more toward the middle of the pack. That said, nobody can deny that the Sox have produced some worth pitching prospects recently.

 

Your list of course doesn't include Brian Pryce, Nick Hagadone or Justin Masterson, who were all good prospects but were traded for V-Mart.

[Dojji]

I think the big question on Weiland, is bullpen or rotation, and it's gonna come down to secondary pitches. But we know so little about the guy that it's virtually impossible to make a call.

 

I hope he makes Portland out of Spring Training so we can get some people up to Hadlock and get a good look at him.

[jacksonianmarch]

Weiland is a pitchability kind of guy. SP gives him a lot of credit, as they do with most of their SRs. The 90-95mph range is actually sitting 90-92 while topping out at 95mph. That's completely different than someone who sits at 95mph. The overwhelming majority of these guys will be relievers since the sox are a big market team and unless the prospect is unreal, they wont get the rotation slot.

[kreinbihl34]

Where's that chart?

[Spudboy]

Sox Prospect - "He could be good, but this is why he won't be".

[Dojji]

Weiland is a pitchability kind of guy.

 

What exactly does that mean anyhow? It just sounds like empty language to me.

[jacksonianmarch]

Throws multiple pitches, has good composure, college trained. And I think eventually, he'll develop control over his off-speed pitches but sacrifice some break for control.

[Lester82]

Weiland is a pitchability kind of guy. SP gives him a lot of credit' date=' as they do with most of their SRs. The 90-95mph range is actually sitting 90-92 while topping out at 95mph. That's completely different than someone who sits at 95mph. The overwhelming majority of these guys will be relievers since the sox are a big market team and unless the prospect is unreal, they wont get the rotation slot.[/quote']

 

At least the Red Sox have depth of pitching prospects.

[jacksonianmarch]

Both teams do

[Dojji]

How much should we draw the distinction between players who play a role because that's the role they fell into, they're doing well, and there's no real need to rock that particular boat, rather than what they might have been capable of if the team had pushed them to their maximum potential? Papelbon's upside as a starter is a possible example, Masterson if he'd stayed in Boston as another.

 

With a guy like Weiland, or Bowden, or Tazawa, or Doubront, if they mature as relievers instead of starters because the Sox's roster was so crowded, but COULD have settled in as half decent starters, do we count that the same as a player who is in the bullpen (like, say, Delcarmen) because he doesn't have starting ability at all? Or is it really all about what a player PROVES they can do, and unproven potential doesn't even count? How do you parse that out?

[Imperial59]

Both teams do

 

Not so much. The Yankees traded away their best pitching prospect this offseason. Now their third best pitching prospect (Jeremy Bleich) has a career 4.89 ERA in the minors after coming out of college. And their fourth best pitching prospect (Brackman) has a career 5.93 ERA int he minors after coming out of college. They're pretty thin on pitching prospects.

[jacksonianmarch]

Not so much. The Yankees traded away their best pitching prospect this offseason. Now their third best pitching prospect (Jeremy Bleich) has a career 4.89 ERA in the minors after coming out of college. And their fourth best pitching prospect (Brackman) has a career 5.93 ERA int he minors after coming out of college. They're pretty thin on pitching prospects.

 

Really not true at all Imperial, leave that up to people who actually know the system

 

In terms of Vizcaino, he wasnt the best pitching prospect. He was the flashiest. He had the 96mph fastball and the knee buckling slider, but he also had multiple injuries and had a lot of inconsistency in his delivery. Manny Banuelos was and is our best pitching prospect, and it isnt even close.

 

In terms of young big league pitchers, Hughes, Aceves, Joba, and Roberston have all etched out their lives in the major leagues. Mark Melancon will probably latch on at the big league level too with the departures of Dunn and Coke.

 

But at the upper levels, there are a few guys who should be ready to make the leap into the bigs. Zach McAllister was a top 75 prospect this season per AOL's Frankie Piliere. He'll be in AAA this yr. Other guys with big league potential who will be in AAA include Wilkin de la Rosa, Romulo Sanchez, Christian Garcia, and Ivan Nova. All four are on the 40 man roster, and all four would have been snagged in the Rule V draft.

 

In AA, Bleich will take his second crack at AA after failing there status post a callup from a successful A+ stint. David Phelps will move up to AA after absolutely dominating A and A+ levels last season. DJ Mitchell will move up to AA after pitching very well in his first season between A and A+. Ryan Pope has also improved his stock after regaining some velocity, but he's so far down on the depth chart that it wont matter.

 

In A+, we will see a healthy Jairo Heredia, who is a top notch prospect when he isnt hurt. We should also see Adam Warren who absolutely dominated the NYP as well as Manny Banuelos who dominated A ball and had a stint in the futures game.

 

In A ball, we have Jose Ramirez, who turned into a legit prospect with his GCL showing. We will also see a lot of high end college pitchers end up here like Caleb Cotham, Sean Black, Gavin Brooks, and Graham Stoneburner.

 

Then below that, in the development leagues, we have some solid talent. Matt Richardson Nik Turley, and Mikey Obrien figure to hold down the SI rotation with Bryan Mitchell, Mariel Checo and Brett Gerritse holding down the GCL rotation along with Chris Cabrera.

 

Imperial, all of the above guys have their flaws, but we definitely have a long list of players who are in line to contribute at the big league level. For this upcoming yr, we have probably our second best pitching prospect big league ready with the best one probably 2 yrs away. That isnt bad.

 

The sox have a lot of similarities too. Their best arm (Kelly) is probably going to be in either the FSL or the Eastern League and isnt going to see big league time until 2011 at the earliest, and most likely 2012. They have a 2 guys in AAA who have big league futures in Bowden and Tazawa, although Bowden took a massive step back last season. And it looks like Buch finally got over the big league hump. They did lose a bit of the upside in the middle of that bunch by losing Masterson and Hagadone. I honestly think that the yankees will have the sox in pitching depth from the FSL up, but the brewing pot of young kids they got last yr and the yr before should start coming through the short season leagues by next yr, led by Madison Younginer, who I really wanted.

[Imperial59]

But at the upper levels, there are a few guys who should be ready to make the leap into the bigs. Zach McAllister was a top 75 prospect this season per AOL's Frankie Piliere. He'll be in AAA this yr. Other guys with big league potential who will be in AAA include Wilkin de la Rosa, Romulo Sanchez, Christian Garcia, and Ivan Nova. All four are on the 40 man roster, and all four would have been snagged in the Rule V draft.

 

In AA, Bleich will take his second crack at AA after failing there status post a callup from a successful A+ stint. David Phelps will move up to AA after absolutely dominating A and A+ levels last season. DJ Mitchell will move up to AA after pitching very well in his first season between A and A+. Ryan Pope has also improved his stock after regaining some velocity, but he's so far down on the depth chart that it wont matter.

 

In A+, we will see a healthy Jairo Heredia, who is a top notch prospect when he isnt hurt. We should also see Adam Warren who absolutely dominated the NYP as well as Manny Banuelos who dominated A ball and had a stint in the futures game.

 

In A ball, we have Jose Ramirez, who turned into a legit prospect with his GCL showing. We will also see a lot of high end college pitchers end up here like Caleb Cotham, Sean Black, Gavin Brooks, and Graham Stoneburner.

 

Then below that, in the development leagues, we have some solid talent. Matt Richardson Nik Turley, and Mikey Obrien figure to hold down the SI rotation with Bryan Mitchell, Mariel Checo and Brett Gerritse holding down the GCL rotation along with Chris Cabrera.

 

Imperial, all of the above guys have their flaws, but we definitely have a long list of players who are in line to contribute at the big league level. For this upcoming yr, we have probably our second best pitching prospect big league ready with the best one probably 2 yrs away. That isnt bad.

 

 

You just named 24 pitching prospects when talking about "players who are in line to contribute at the big level". We both know that it's impossible for that to happen.

 

Why don't you make a list of the pitchers who you consider the top 10 Yankees pitching prospects, and we can evaluate how much quality pitching depth the Yankees actually have. Because naming your 4th best starter in the GCL league doesn't really mean much in a serious discussion about pitching depth.

[Spudboy]

Classic Pitching evaluations from the Doc:

 

 

Lester's career best WHIP was 1.15 in 2005 in AA. Other than that, he has been over 1.3 in his MiLB career. Over his major league career, he has made 25 starts, compiling a WHIP of 1.57 in that time. Over his MiLB career, he has compiled a WHIP of 1.31. Both are poor when considering the type of pitcher Lester is. I know a lot of people want to give him tons of credit in terms of his SR due to the cancer, and I love the guy for his determination, but lets be honest here. He's a high 80s-low 90s pitcher with shaky control. He allows a TON of baserunners and through nothing other than luck, he has avoided the major disaster. I expect his K rate to stay respectable, but if he continues to walk 4+ per 9IP, he will be burned.

 

Kennedy OTOH, is a full yr younger and doesnt have the health concerns that go along with Lester. He throws high 80s to low 90s, but is known as a total control freak. In his only minor league season, he walked 1 per 9 less than Lester did without giving up the hits that Lester did. Also, throughout all levels of the minors, Kennedy maintained a near 9K/9IP rate. Plus, his stellar debut in the majors also speaks to his ability. He doesnt have the breaking ball that Lester has, but Lester doesnt have the changeup or the fastball location that kennedy does. All told, Kennedy has a slight edge IMO which will grow if Lester doesnt consistently locate this upcoming yr.

 

 

 

In terms of Horne vs Masterson. Nobody will doubt Masterson's ability. He's 6'6" and throws gas. That being said, Horne has proven he can be both a sinkerballer and a strikeout pitcher. And prior to a late season swoon, he was absolutely dominant with a WHIP below 1.2. But most of the argument here harkens to their projectability. Horne made major strides with his sinker and changeup this season. Enough so that he is in the picture as a SP. Masterson, OTOH, has been a reliever in the eyes of most scouting sites since being drafted and he has done nothing to change that. Will Masterson be a better reliever than Horne will be as a starter? Probably. But that being said, an above average starter is worth more than a good reliever these days.

 

I like how these evaluations worked out Doc !

 

Where are Kennedy and Horne now?

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

lulz

[Imperial59]

Classic Pitching evaluations from the Doc:

 

 

Lester's career best WHIP was 1.15 in 2005 in AA. Other than that, he has been over 1.3 in his MiLB career. Over his major league career, he has made 25 starts, compiling a WHIP of 1.57 in that time. Over his MiLB career, he has compiled a WHIP of 1.31. Both are poor when considering the type of pitcher Lester is. I know a lot of people want to give him tons of credit in terms of his SR due to the cancer, and I love the guy for his determination, but lets be honest here. He's a high 80s-low 90s pitcher with shaky control. He allows a TON of baserunners and through nothing other than luck, he has avoided the major disaster. I expect his K rate to stay respectable, but if he continues to walk 4+ per 9IP, he will be burned.

 

Kennedy OTOH, is a full yr younger and doesnt have the health concerns that go along with Lester. He throws high 80s to low 90s, but is known as a total control freak. In his only minor league season, he walked 1 per 9 less than Lester did without giving up the hits that Lester did. Also, throughout all levels of the minors, Kennedy maintained a near 9K/9IP rate. Plus, his stellar debut in the majors also speaks to his ability. He doesnt have the breaking ball that Lester has, but Lester doesnt have the changeup or the fastball location that kennedy does. All told, Kennedy has a slight edge IMO which will grow if Lester doesnt consistently locate this upcoming yr.

 

 

 

In terms of Horne vs Masterson. Nobody will doubt Masterson's ability. He's 6'6" and throws gas. That being said, Horne has proven he can be both a sinkerballer and a strikeout pitcher. And prior to a late season swoon, he was absolutely dominant with a WHIP below 1.2. But most of the argument here harkens to their projectability. Horne made major strides with his sinker and changeup this season. Enough so that he is in the picture as a SP. Masterson, OTOH, has been a reliever in the eyes of most scouting sites since being drafted and he has done nothing to change that. Will Masterson be a better reliever than Horne will be as a starter? Probably. But that being said, an above average starter is worth more than a good reliever these days.

 

I like how these evaluations worked out Doc !

 

Where are Kennedy and Horne now?

 

Isn't there some chart out there of his typical responses in which he thinks every prospect the Yankees have ever had is the next great thing? I'd say that garbage he just posted where he claimed the Yankees 4th starter in the GCL league was in line to be a major league pitcher confirms that.

[jacksonianmarch]

Lester regained his power and did what a miniscule amount of pitching prospects do (reach their potential) and Horne blew out his shoulder.

[jacksonianmarch]

Isn't there some chart out there of his typical responses in which he thinks every prospect the Yankees have ever had is the next great thing? I'd say that garbage he just posted where he claimed the Yankees 4th starter in the GCL league was in line to be a major league pitcher confirms that.

 

You do not know what pitching depth is then Imperial. If you are looking for pitching depth at the big league level for 2010, then stop my post after AA. This was the quote...

 

At least the Red Sox have depth of pitching prospects

 

Depth of pitching prospects, not major league pitching depth. Maybe, before you come home from your long days of work restraining people and have to read these posts with tired eyes you should actually read what is being argued.

[Imperial59]

You do not know what pitching depth is then Imperial. If you are looking for pitching depth at the big league level for 2010' date=' then stop my post after AA. This was the quote...[/quote']

 

When I said the Yankees didn't have depth, I meant they didn't have a depth of quality pitching prospects. Not that they didn't have physical bodies on their minor league roster (which you seemed to think I meant when you named 24 pitching prospects).

 

I'm curious, what would you say are the Yankees top 10 pitching prospects. Then we could evaluate what kind of quality the Yankees have.

[Dojji]

http://www.prospecttube.com/video/kyle-weiland-vs-jason-castro