The John Lackey Thread

[jacksonianmarch]

Keeping the yankees to a 4.66ERA is pretty good.

[Tyler Durden]

He was 3-7 with a 5.25 ERA vs. the Sox in 14 starts, can't beat 'em... join em'

[Dojji]

And a hearty THANK YOU to JimEd for posting an inflammatory screed that provoked the Yankee fans to invade the thread in earnest and turn an informative thread into yet another testosterone contest. What would we do without you?

[yankees228]

You've haven't said that. However, in my opinion, this was a clear attempt to apply different sets of rules to the Yankees and the Red Sox.

 

In the case of the Yankees, you've clearly shown that you think money is the most important factor in their success.

 

In the case of the Red Sox, you're very quick to point out that, despite what kind of offseason they may have, they still need to win the games on the field.

 

Those are the facts. If that's not an attempt to portray two clubs who are doing similar things differently, I don't know what is.

 

EDIT: Obviously, at ORS.

[yeszir]

And a hearty THANK YOU to JimEd for posting an inflammatory screed that provoked the Yankee fans to invade the thread in earnest and turn an informative thread into yet another testosterone contest. What would we do without you?

 

Unnecessary.

[jacksonianmarch]

Regardless, you cannot downplay this guy. He was a horse, had a few minor injuries the past 2 yrs but finished both seasons incredibly strong. He slots in well as the #3 and offers the sox a bit more breathing room in negotiations with Beckett.

 

I am also a bit surprised that NY hasnt entered the fray here. I guess they chose Pettitte over Lackey this yr to get a shot at Cliff Lee or Roy Halladay next yr. Its a good calculated gamble IMO, but it could lead to the sox closing the gap a bit too close for comfort in 2010.

[yankees228]

Regardless, you cannot downplay this guy. He was a horse, had a few minor injuries the past 2 yrs but finished both seasons incredibly strong. He slots in well as the #3 and offers the sox a bit more breathing room in negotiations with Beckett.

 

I am also a bit surprised that NY hasnt entered the fray here. I guess they chose Pettitte over Lackey this yr to get a shot at Cliff Lee or Roy Halladay next yr. Its a good calculated gamble IMO, but it could lead to the sox closing the gap a bit too close for comfort in 2010.

 

I think they're one major move away from being pretty much on par with the Yankees.

[jacksonianmarch]

Or we're one major injury away from slinking down to their level. This does even the field a bit more.

[yankees228]

Or we're one major injury away from slinking down to their level. This does even the field a bit more.

 

Right. I think this was an excellent move, that will allay the fears of some people here that the Red Sox are not going to go all out to try to win. This gives them, clearly, the superior rotation over the Yankees.

[jacksonianmarch]

and it clearly moves them to the top of the AL Wild Card race.

[Dojji]

Don't kid yourself, Jackson. If we do get Lackey, we have the rotation to make a rush for the division, and at the very least hang your season on the performance of Joba Chamberlain and whoever you get for your 5 spot. Particularly if Burnett succumbs to the Homerdome next year.

[Paradisecity]

Right. I think this was an excellent move' date=' that will allay the fears of some people here that the Red Sox are not going to go all out to try to win. This gives them, clearly, the superior rotation over the Yankees.[/quote']

 

Lets not start talking about it in the past tense just yet. We haven't even traded Lowell yet let alone signed Lackey.

[yankees228]

Lets not start talking about it in the past tense just yet. We haven't even traded Lowell yet let alone signed Lackey.

 

Fair enough. If this was a Yankee move, I would be much more cautious, wanting confirmation before acknowledging that it was definite. I understand where you're coming from.

[ehaz]

Teixeira led the league in HR' date=' RBI, and TB. He had a more productive season.[/quote']

Prince Fielder had more RBI's than Albert Pujols, does that mean that he's a better player? No. Bringing up RBI and HR totals just make you sound like an idiot.

[SoxSport]

This may be a signal the Sox are going away from big bucks in LF and putting it in pitching--which is what it's all about anyways. But it also may indicate Buchholz is ticketed to SD for AdGon. You have to figure SD can get their best deal from Boston--after all, they know the farm system very well. Could be the poor Mets are left holding the bag with Bay. Sorry, Jason.

 

I see Halladay looks like he is ticketed for the Phillies--for Happ or Hamels? That's also good news for the Sox.

 

Watch Holliday wind up with the Boras-Yankees.

 

Halliday? Holliday? ....Holliday? Halliday?...Aw let's call the whole thing off.

[ehaz]

C- Posada vs VMart- Posada has had a better OPS for 4 yrs running now

1B- Teixeira vs Gonzalez- Gonzo had a 10 point advantage over Tex in 2009, but Tex blew him away every yr prior to this one

2B- Cano vs Pedroia- Pedroia may have an MVP, but Cano has had a higher OPS 2 of the 3 yrs Pedroia has been in the game

SS- Jeter vs Scutaro- no contest

3B- Rodriguez vs Youkilis- Youkilis has been on par or better with ARod for the past 2 yrs, but ARod did slug more homers even though he missed a month

LF- Cabrera vs Hermida- they both had incredibly similar yrs last yr

CF- Granderson vs Ellsbury- This isnt even close. Grandy had an off yr in a bad ballpark for lefties and he still had a higher OPS and slugged 30 homers. Move him to the homerdome for 81 games and to the yankee lineup and Grandy is the much better offensive player

RF- Drew vs Swisher- Drew is the better hitter, although Swisher isnt too far behind him in OPS

DH- ??? vs Ortiz- OPS under .800 for Ortiz in a yr when he looked defeated and slow. Another yr of father time and this one could hurt. I fully expect either Matsui or Damon to be manning this role for 2010, and I would take both of them over Ortiz offensively.

 

C- advantage Posada

1B- even if you go back only one yr, although I think Tex is a better bet to maintain

2B- even, although Cano was better for 2 of the last 3 yrs

SS- advantage Jeter

3B- Youkilis with the better 2009 by a small margin, ARod now healthy is a winner IMO

LF- Hermida with the slight edge since he has more upside

CF- Granderson by far

RF- Drew wins that one

DH- Matsui or Damon over Ortiz

 

C- Yes, having a 38 year old catcher who can't play his position any more is an advantage, sorry I forgot how to reason things out like a Yankee fan.

 

2B-In every year Pedroia's been in the big leagues, he's had a more productive year than Cano with the exception of his rookie season.

 

DH-The Yankees don't have Damon/Matsui under contract

[CoachC.]

Heyman already reporting it like the deal is done.

 

 

 

lackey a great move for #redsox. sources say it's about $85 mil for 5.

[yeszir]

Heyman already reporting it like the deal is done.

 

It's like a game of telephone.The deal clearly isn't done yet, I think this all speculation being misconstrued as fact.

[MNSoxChief102]

Heyman already reporting it like the deal is done.

 

Just saw that myself... 5 years $85 mil is longer and more expensive than I would prefer but that's what it costs to get a legitimate starter these days. Better to spend the money we know they have then dump our farm to get Halladay IMO.

[stocker323]

Can he pitch at Fenway? That's my main concern. Good postseason track record. Kind of seems like a douchebag watching him pitch. But he's probably one of those classic hate him if he's on the opposing team, love him if he's on your team kind of guys.

 

Would love to see them turn Clay into Gonzalez now.

[Keeper]

Hope this becomes official soon. I think this move took everyone by surprise. All along I've been hearing that Lackey would most likely re-sign with the Angels.

 

Whoever said the Sox should move Youk to LF... no. Just no.

 

I agree that this definitely opens up the possibility of a trade for Gonzo.

[ehaz]

Just saw that myself... 5 years $85 mil is longer and more expensive than I would prefer but that's what it costs to get a legitimate starter these days. Better to spend the money we know they have then dump our farm to get Halladay IMO.

I agree completely, 17 per year is not too bad considering that Halladay would cost more than that in addition to Buchholz and Kelly. Plus, Lackey is younger than Halladay, and he's been a legit ace with the Angels.

[ORS]

Teixeira led the league in HR' date=' RBI, and TB. He had a more productive season.[/quote']

That's 3 offensive categories. There's a lot more that goes into run production, and something like Runs Created would account for those things. Now, Teixeira was more productive, but it wasn't because of those things. He was more productive because he didn't miss time with an injury like Youkilis did. When they took the field, they were comparable, with a slight edge to Youkilis (8.8 RC/G to 8.0 RC/G).

[SoxSport]

On Youks vs Tex, the biggest differences are that Tex can also hit LHd, which is vital to the Yankees in their park; but Youks is a much better value at half Tex's salary, and he bats RHd, which is desirable for Fenway. His power numbers have grown since they extended him, and they got a terrific bargain. I also believe the shorter length of Youks' contract vs Tex is an advantage for the Red Sox.

[SoxSport]

Lackey deal done? Wow, they just swooped in and overpaid for Lackey, if it's 5/85. He must have jumped at it.

[CoachC.]

Lackey deal done? Wow' date=' they just swooped in and overpaid for Lackey, if it's 5/85. He must have jumped at it.[/quote']

 

It was going to be similar to the AJ deal New York gave him last year which was 5/82.5 mil.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if the Sox told him the moment Lackey walked away from the table the deal was also off the table.

[Keeper]

http://www.fenwaywest.com/2009-articles/december/red-sox-sign-john-lackey.html

[ehaz]

Lackey deal done? Wow' date=' they just swooped in and overpaid for Lackey, if it's 5/85. He must have jumped at it.[/quote']

Yeah, it seemed very sudden. They hate when things leak out to the media and they especially don't want things to take too long and cause another Texeira-like mess.

[ORS]

You've haven't said that. However, in my opinion, this was a clear attempt to apply different sets of rules to the Yankees and the Red Sox.

 

In the case of the Yankees, you've clearly shown that you think money is the most important factor in their success.

 

In the case of the Red Sox, you're very quick to point out that, despite what kind of offseason they may have, they still need to win the games on the field.

 

Those are the facts. If that's not an attempt to portray two clubs who are doing similar things differently, I don't know what is.

 

EDIT: Obviously, at ORS.

I have, and the above is why I say you are taking my position to the extreme, to the only place where a contradiction can be found. I'm sorry, but I don't see the world in black and white. I see it in gray, which acknowledges takes some of the black and some of the white.

 

There's no double standard at play here. I think the Red Sox success is largely due to their financial advantage too, as I've communicated several times. So, no, you don't know what an attempt to portray two similar things differently is, because your accusation is incorrect.

[Plumpamania]

Are you 12? First of all, you are f***ing psycho if you think the red sox go out and get AGon and Lackey while NY just stands pat not reinforcing the rotation or filling the hole in LF. Psycho.

 

Second, you keep forgetting why your sox were in that predicament in the first place. Beckett fell apart down the stretch, the sox defense was putrid, and the offense went into a hole. Well, Beckett's still there, the defense is worse with Scutaro than with AGon and no better with Vmart taking over for Tek, and you essentially lose Lowell and Bay and replace them with Adrian Gonzalez and Jeremy Hermida, which IMO is a downgrade.

 

Third, you seem to forget just how big of a gap there is between the two. 8 games and it could have been 10-15 if the Yankees didnt ease off the pedal at the end.

 

Going by defensive spot since lineup is too hard to do right now since NY has a lot up in the air

 

C- Posada vs VMart- Posada has had a better OPS for 4 yrs running now

1B- Teixeira vs Gonzalez- Gonzo had a 10 point advantage over Tex in 2009, but Tex blew him away every yr prior to this one

2B- Cano vs Pedroia- Pedroia may have an MVP, but Cano has had a higher OPS 2 of the 3 yrs Pedroia has been in the game

SS- Jeter vs Scutaro- no contest

3B- Rodriguez vs Youkilis- Youkilis has been on par or better with ARod for the past 2 yrs, but ARod did slug more homers even though he missed a month

LF- Cabrera vs Hermida- they both had incredibly similar yrs last yr

CF- Granderson vs Ellsbury- This isnt even close. Grandy had an off yr in a bad ballpark for lefties and he still had a higher OPS and slugged 30 homers. Move him to the homerdome for 81 games and to the yankee lineup and Grandy is the much better offensive player

RF- Drew vs Swisher- Drew is the better hitter, although Swisher isnt too far behind him in OPS

DH- ??? vs Ortiz- OPS under .800 for Ortiz in a yr when he looked defeated and slow. Another yr of father time and this one could hurt. I fully expect either Matsui or Damon to be manning this role for 2010, and I would take both of them over Ortiz offensively.

 

C- advantage Posada

1B- even if you go back only one yr, although I think Tex is a better bet to maintain

2B- even, although Cano was better for 2 of the last 3 yrs

SS- advantage Jeter

3B- Youkilis with the better 2009 by a small margin, ARod now healthy is a winner IMO

LF- Hermida with the slight edge since he has more upside

CF- Granderson by far

RF- Drew wins that one

DH- Matsui or Damon over Ortiz

 

Sorry JimEd, still gotta fill another hole in LF to overtake the boys in pinstripes

 

You're talking about people being psycho and putting more of an emphasis on your own ego about a team you root for.

 

With your comparisons you're failing to utilize any proper metric, and I see nothing has changed since 2007 Jackson.

 

All I see is comparisions drenched in personal opinions on players. I see that defensive metrics aren't utilized in any opinion and there are players being listed that currently either are free agents or do belong to other teams.

 

In the future if you do find it perinent to subscribe a comparsion of players between two teams please use viable metrics such as something as simple as RC, RC/27, OPS, VORP, UZR, RF or something along those lines to your prove your point.

 

Thank you.